Hub motor project!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by chuttney1 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:59 pm

jacobbloy wrote:carbon Steel alloy chrome mix
The technical term is chromoly steel...

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:07 pm

chuttney1 wrote:
jacobbloy wrote:carbon Steel alloy chrome mix
The technical term is chromoly steel...
Thanks for the clarification;)

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:33 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:If you can place a steel paperclip onto the side of the motor while the axle is vertical, and the clip stays on rather than falling off...there may be some magnetic flux rotating abouton the outside of the shell. Thickening the steel shell of the outrunner would reduce this. I am not experienced enough to state any of this with authority, but the chiming you heard might be vibrations from eddy-current heating.

Aluminum is not magnetic, but if a magnetic field is moving next to it, it will heat the aluminum and also cause drag on the motor (If I recall correctly). The steel backing of hub motor magnet backing rings "short circuits" the magnetic flux. Too thick results in unnecessary weight, too thin and a variety of other issues arise. These RC motors were designed for very light weight and max torque per applied watt, but the model aircraft housings (that they were intended for) are typically plastic or some other composite, so eddy current heating of surrounding metals is not a frequently seen issue.

If I have mis-stated anything, I apologize in advance, but my hazy recollections might be worth looking into in order to eliminate those issues as possibilities. Perhaps spin up a motor on the bench at max RPMs while using an optical tachometer, then hold various metals nearby to see if the motor slows? (it goes without saying for ES members, but for newer and inexperienced readers, hold the metal in such a way that it might be pulled AWAY from the pliers that hold it...and yes, I have many scars on my hands)
Thanks for the input this is the one have has puzzled me from build 1, it has occurred on every design, but we have made so many changes to the can and cap design, the only thing we havnt changed is the type of metals used! The thickness of the motor can's are the same thickness as a normal outrunner! The magnets used are they same I actualy have had one of the motor company's to install them on the odd occasion and this doesn't effect any thing, I feel maybe the steel I use for the motor can may have to much iron in it, outrunner and my design both use a low carbon or mild steel but if they are exactly the safe is a question?

I assumed the caps where to blam because even tho there non magnetic they are set closer and are more solid then a normal outrunner and alloy still even tho it's very low has some iron, but as alloy is steel a conductor there could be current leakage getting transferred through the magnets on the motor can straight to the alloy caps that are turning against the emf of the stator! Because even this alloy isn't magnetic it can steel produce an emg if charged!

Why would the motor can be charged I have no idea, I can only guess to say because there is a magnetic feld attached to it there's relitive movement and when breaking heat! These 3 are meant to create create a charge. Again a guess but it is just when I swapped the Caps out for abs caps that didn't last long the chime wasn't present.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:19 am

Hi guys so iv added a link for any one who has offered to test these motors, it will direct you to ebay I have done this for both our security! But I ask you all to please read the discription

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1430448407

I have added a make an offer this is for upgrading to the orangatang Kegel wheels you will get 1 modified wheel and 3 normal wheels, this option is $55 extra so I have subsidised the cost for the wheels but I will try and a better deal on distribution. If you do not choice this option you will set generic abec 11 style wheels!

Color is random!

Thanks again for the support!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:23 am

What's the delivery time?

so + $55 for Orangatang's and ABEC by default included --- both wheels is already assembled if order (2) hub motors?

Also what is max voltage these motors are capable of? What KV are the motors again?

$185 for kegels + 1 hub motor?

What's cost for 2 hub motors? Is 1 hub motor sufficient for uphill?
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by okp » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:36 am

eBay auction blocked in France.
Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users from accessing items that are not within the scope of said restrictions because of limitations of existing technology. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause, and we hope you may find other items of interest on eBay.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by addicted2climbing » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:05 am

I am very interested in this and have the same questions as torqueboards. Im 230lbs will I need 2 motors to go up a moderate hill? Im looking for 20mph and 10 - 12 miles range... Are the motors sensored to aid in startup?

Marc

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:14 am

torqueboards wrote:What's the delivery time?

so + $55 for Orangatang's and ABEC by default included --- both wheels is already assembled if order (2) hub motors?

Also what is max voltage these motors are capable of? What KV are the motors again?

$185 for kegels + 1 hub motor?

What's cost for 2 hub motors? Is 1 hub motor sufficient for uphill?
Motors will be assembled by hand by me! $185 for 1 motor 4 Kegel wheels or $315 for 2 motors 4 kegel, I feel 1 motor if enough for those who don't want much power! Torqueboards with the things iv seem on endless sphere I would say 2 is essential for you! Or any one who has hills!

Iv enemy had a request for 4x motors 1 in each Kegel wheel 4wd system I'm hoping!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:19 am

Kv will be confirmed, I am talking to some engineers about a perfect balance but peak voltage is 8s but 6s is recommended iv that video I have posted I am only using 4s with a 150kv motor but 6s is recommended that's why we want lower kv!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:31 am

(2) motors sounds nice! (4) motors sounds even better! lol

Is there a discount for (4) motors on kegels? Any estimated top speed on 6S / 8S? I'm sold on (2) for testing.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by beto_pty » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:26 am

100 kv will be about 40 kph assuming 80 mm kegels on 8s lipo..
35ish on 6s..
both with probably very nice torque, low amps...
145 kv will probably be 65 kph on 8s
or 40ish on 6s with acceptable torque for flats, probably no hills
either way im set.. if they are 149 ill use the 6s setup.. 8s ill use the 8s esc...
This decision is totally dependent on weather the user is planning on using a 6s, 8s or twin configuration...
Id suggest having both alternatives...just cause it allows the user to configure it.. rememeber you are giving us a great hub motor... but taking away our ability to match gears to our weight, geography and riding style...

being the idiot that I am here is a buying question...
So Im ordering 2 motor hubbs plus 6 matching kegels... (2 complete single motor boards)
I go go into ebay.. go to make offer
it asks me in AUS so I fill in AUS $183 .. then it adds 60 and that is it?
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by amberwolf » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:18 pm

jacobbloy wrote:I assumed the caps where to blam because even tho there non magnetic they are set closer and are more solid then a normal outrunner
If you have to have them so close that the stator fields are penetrating them, there are shielding metals you can use as an inside layer. I don't know enough about them to help with that, but Wikipedia does have some info on it, under the magnetism and motor articles, and maybe also the mu-metal / permeability articles.

and alloy still even tho it's very low has some iron, but as alloy is steel a conductor
If you mean aluminum alloy, then it isn't steel and shouldn't have iron in it in amounts to make a difference. AFAICR, any metal or alloy is capable of having eddy currents induced into it from a powerful enough magnetic field that is close enough to it, though how each one reacts is different.

"alloy" as a general term only means "a mix of elements" in a material, but what that base material actually is based on is usually the prefix word to it ("aluminum alloy", etc).



If you can shield against the leakage between caps and stator, it may fix the noise, if it's caused by the field, and it would also then make the motor more efficient because it wouldn't be being braked (slightly) by the field leakage into the caps.


Keep in mind the noise in the caps could be caused by flex and/or vibration, too, and might not actually be caused by flux leakage. You wouldn't hear it in ABS caps, becuase the plastic would damp vibration, so even if the cause was still there you wouldn't know. :/

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:21 pm

I clicked on the buy now option as well but I received no option for adding in the full set of kegels to the cost. :cry:
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by okp » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:33 pm

great project. I may be interested to setup a new board but would like to get a rough idea about the difference with my existing DIY board.

I am running a dual diagonal motor setup - 2 x 50mm Alien motors, 270KV, 2200watt, 60Amp, 50mmx65mm - 36T - 12T pulley - 8mm shaft on 7S 10AH with 150A AP ESC with 76M 78A ABEC11 Wheels. That's for the overview.

I weight 72kg and I am pretty happy with my existing torque - would prefer to go for medium acceleration setting on the ESC, but it seems that I got issues with it. So I keep it low (but it's still acceptable).

My questions are:
- what about the maintenance, if the motor is within the wheel ?
- what about the maintenance, if the wheel is starting to show sign of "tare", or are getting damaged, i.e how do I change the wheels?
- Actually the wheel gets all the road impacts, if the motor is within, will this not cause the motor to be damaged ?

I think you should go directly through paypal instead of eBay (there is no big added value to go through eBay I assume), this will allow you to avoid giving eBay some money and save it on the order.

Sounds a great project, I am riding A LOT in Paris so I will be please to be one of the beta testers and post review either here + youtube.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by rs4race » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:52 pm

Cool stuff. I thought about this a while ago, but didnt want to put in the work to make it happen. I think these will make conversions really easy and sleeper. Really nice!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by addicted2climbing » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:52 pm

Hey JacobBloy,

To avoid all the confusion trying to get people to order various custom combos from ebay, you might want to consider just sending out a Paypal invoice to those interested. This way, they can email a request to you for some custom combo and give you their paypal address. You then can send a paypal invoice with exactly what they need for them to pay against. I have a product that has multiple combinations and often people ask for special variations and it works well. Also it will cut out the ebay fee as well.

Now for my needs, can you help me make a choice on what I need. I am 105 kg and want a board capable of 29 to 36 KPH with 19 to 24 km of range. I ride mostly flat, but I do have the occasional incline from bike path overpasses on my commute so would need a bit of hill ability. I am open to either a 1 or 2 motor setup and need your advice as to what makes the most sense for my application. I am also open to you recommending 6S or 8S as I need to buy batteries as well. Which ESC do you recommend? I am currently riding an E-go to finish up the last few miles of a work commute from the train station. I am in th elos angeles area, and my commute is dry, but the bikepath occasional has wet spots, with a hub motor is it more susceptible to wet since it cant be shielded?

best regards,

Marc

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:54 pm

rs4race wrote:Cool stuff. I thought about this a while ago, but didnt want to put in the work to make it happen. I think these will make conversions really easy and sleeper. Really nice!
Ditto! Can't wait for these. Wish they were able to be shipped now.

Jacob is there a current ETA?

addicted2climbing - I am in th elos angeles area, and my commute is dry, but the bikepath occasional has wet spots, with a hub motor is it more susceptible to wet since it cant be shielded?
I would like to know the answer as well.

How well do these motors work from stand still since they are unsensored?
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by beto_pty » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:35 pm

in my experience all outrunners are 100% impervious to water spray...deep puddles..etc up to the bullet connectors...
much more often the problem comes from the batts or the esc
:cry:
ask me how I know..
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:28 pm

torqueboards wrote:I clicked on the buy now option as well but I received no option for adding in the full set of kegels to the cost. :cry:
Hi man, just to clarify ebay couldn't give me an option for extras, so the offer has worked, if you want a twin motor drive you need to make an offer for $185 and then buy it know 1 motor at $130, aus if free postage if u are charged I will refund, international is $60.

Or just make an offer of $157.50 or 4wd just buy it know and Add a note and I'll give you the kegels for free:)

We are looking at 100kv to 120kv guys but we just need to thicken the coper if there are any digestion on size of copper to use that doesn't couse to much heat that would be great!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:43 pm

Cool in for 2 hub motors. :mrgreen:
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:45 pm

With all the talk about selling iv been asked to make a new page about the selling, if you send me your request and your paypal email I'll send you an invoice;)

Guys the same as the 5065 motor setups the dual motors have a lot more torque with the hub motors you loose about 10% or torque because gears work great! I can ride up a shift hill 10% by my house on a single motor system I'm 95kg but it slows down a lot, when on 2 motors the it's very smooth!

Because of the resistence the pully and belt make and the gearing it makes it a little harder on the motors, but because the hub motors are on a very smooth bearing momentum builts very quickly and you can get a very smooth take off from stand still but not on a hill. The design has another slot for sensored wires, it is just adding them into the stator in the most efficient way! Bruno has it down!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by addicted2climbing » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:58 pm

Jacob,

I sent you a PM with my order and paypal info. Also a few other questions in my PM. I forgot to add my paypal address so I sent you a second PM.

Marc

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by dirkdiggler » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:46 pm

It would be cool to add the hall sensors as most of the ESC's we use have the option to add them. It would be nice to plug and play to the HK or Hobbywing 150a.
I'd like to order one, but with the snow around here, I doubt I'll get any good days soon. No electronics to worry about when riding a snowboard!

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Re: Hub motor project!60

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:15 am

amberwolf wrote:
jacobbloy wrote:I assumed the caps where to blam because even tho there non magnetic they are set closer and are more solid then a normal outrunner
If you have to have them so close that the stator fields are penetrating them, there are shielding metals you can use as an inside layer. I don't know enough about them to help with that, but Wikipedia does have some info on it, under the magnetism and motor articles, and maybe also the mu-metal / permeability articles.

and alloy still even tho it's very low has some iron, but as alloy is steel a conductor
If you mean aluminum alloy, then it isn't steel and shouldn't have iron in it in amounts to make a difference. AFAICR, any metal or alloy is capable of having eddy currents induced into it from a powerful enough magnetic field that is close enough to it, though how each one reacts is different.

"alloy" as a general term only means "a mix of elements" in a material, but what that base material actually is based on is usually the prefix word to it ("aluminum alloy", etc).



If you can shield against the leakage between caps and stator, it may fix the noise, if it's caused by the field, and it would also then make the motor more efficient because it wouldn't be being braked (slightly) by the field leakage into the caps.


Keep in mind the noise in the caps could be caused by flex and/or vibration, too, and might not actually be caused by flux leakage. You wouldn't hear it in ABS caps, becuase the plastic would damp vibration, so even if the cause was still there you wouldn't know. :/
Are you saying the sound from breaking I hear in his clips is a indicator of a ferrous metal near the motor causing a emf reverb which would likely slow the motor and ...create that brake noise? So a different capacitor with a dampener(plastic) would stop the noise? Or simply a emf shield between the two? I guess abs caps have vibration dampening with the plastic and that' will stop the vibration/noise...but then you don't know if your leaking flux,and even getting the reverb, and therefore inefficiency. Maybe I'm way off but if the noise is this simply and a barrier from the esc to motor will remove it..! Huh..how come this is so unknown. To me anyway.

How bout this small 50mm, maybe, motor pushing up hills solo without any gearing on maybe a 90mm wheel....how does that compare to (2) 50mm, or 60mm, motors going up a steep long hill...given the same esc and battery'? Efficiency? A watt/amp limit requiring a low amp esc?
Why's this motor limited to 8s?

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:37 am

The motor he's using is a 5065 common motor setup for 100/120KV. It's rated for 8S might be capable for more.
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