JP spot welder

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NetPro   10 mW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by NetPro » Jan 07 2019 12:36pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 13 2018 3:30pm

48v is too much. 12v is about the maximum.
Consider that on mine, I measured about 3,000A during the pulse at 12v. There has been some success using gigantic capacitors and a 12v supply. The average power is not that much so the caps can get recharged with a reasonably small 12v supply.
Fletcher,

How did you measure the current of such a short pulse?
Is there a special device that does that or you rigged something up using standard testing equipment?
I want to test mine.

Thanks!

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by fechter » Jan 07 2019 1:57pm

I used an oscilloscope across a 6" section of 10ga wire and measured the voltage drop. I got the resistance of the wire from a table and did the math to get the current.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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riba2233   1 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by riba2233 » Jan 12 2019 1:49pm

NetPro wrote:
Jan 07 2019 12:35pm
fechter wrote:
Dec 13 2018 3:30pm

48v is too much. 12v is about the maximum.
Consider that on mine, I measured about 3,000A during the pulse at 12v. There has been some success using gigantic capacitors and a 12v supply. The average power is not that much so the caps can get recharged with a reasonably small 12v supply.
Fletcher,

How did you measure the current of such a short pulse?
Is there a special device that does that or you rigged something up using "standard" testing equipment?
I want to test mine.

Thanks!
I have done measurements using large shunt resistor and oscilloscope.

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Offroader » Jan 13 2019 1:47pm

Just a follow up if anyone is interested. I soldered 28 AWG wire to tiny nickel strips, and then spot welded them onto the battery for the BMS.

I wanted to avoid any soldering onto the battery. Soldering also off the battery allows me to really heat everything up to guarantee a perfect solder, something you really couldn't do on the battery because you may overheat the cells.

I also wrapped the pack up in Kapton tape first to avoid residue on the nickel. Then used scotch tape to tape down the wires, then box packing tape to really tape up the pack to make sure everything is very secure.

I did notice a few wires on one side of the pack seemed to started to wear. It must have been from possible rubbing on the side cover? I used some electrical tape on the sides and used a lot of packing tape to make sure nothing wears through and the wires stay secure.

You can see the 28awg soldered wire welded to the cell.
Image

Completed pack ready to be installed in bike.
Image

Image

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Offroader » Jan 13 2019 2:05pm

You can see in the pictures a couple of wires I noticed had the silicone split open or gouged out. I really have no idea how this happened. I figured if it was from rubbing it would have shown more wear marks. It almost looks like it got cut open and not worn out from rubbing.

I noticed this on only one side of the pack and maybe 4 different wires had signs of the silicone either cut open or damage marks.

For 95% of the wires they are run over the cell groups in series, so it would not have shorted anything. Only the tops of the wires seemed to be damaged in those few locations.

I didn't notice any issues when I removed the pack and believe the pack was still wrapped in tape solidly around. The thin foam I used for the sides also don't have any wear marks on them.

I also have kapton tape on my side covers, and some thin foam on the sides of my battery pack which are not worn out. Highly unlikely this would cause a short.

That all being said, using wires may come with some hazards as you can see. Why those wires split on a few locations , I have no idea?

I wrapped those wires with electrical tape, then I used lots of packing tape around the battery this time around. It is much more secure. I will also add more foam sheets to the sides of the battery.


You can see the blue wire silicone is cut open and the copper wire inside exposed. This wire sat above another group in series, as you can see it is over the black wire nickel. If this wire lost its insulation it may have touched the nickel tab on that adjacent parallel group. There may have been kapton tape under this wire also but I don't know if I added the tape below it. This time I did on those few wires run over other series cell groups.
Image

The orange wire has a small chunk out of it. All the other wires around it are still perfectly untouched. Maybe this wire was higher than the others? I could not tell.
Image

This was the side of the pack when I removed it, the tape still looks in good order at those locations.
Image

I used this packaging foam on the sides, there are 3 thin sheets of this fragile stuff and not a single hole or wear mark can be found. Makes me believe this didn't happen from rubbing on the side covers or there would have been a hole and wear marks on this soft foam and there was not. Something else must have caused damage on those wires.

Image

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by fechter » Jan 14 2019 2:00pm

That's pretty concerning. It could be fairly disastrous if a wire shorted. In both cases it appears there is another wire directly under the spot where it rubbed through, so those must be high spots. I would recommend using fish paper or Nomex paper between the wires and the cells anyplace where a short is possible. A bunch of silicone glue around them might help too.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 14 2019 2:53pm

After having a battery fire that pack scares me.

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Offroader » Jan 14 2019 7:41pm

Agreed, I think it also was probably a high spot and the pressure just separated the silicone.

Lucky 95% of the wires are above the series group they connect so it would not short anything.

I'm going to try and put some extra foam strips in areas where there are no wires so they hopefully take pressure off the other high spots.

The battery is surrounded by steel and aluminum, so I'm not too worried about a fire. I also keep the bike in my detached garage so not worried about smoke.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by tomjasz » Jan 14 2019 9:42pm

Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by fechter » Jan 14 2019 10:39pm

Some kind of rubbery potting stuff or just plain silicone glue would help protect things if it could completely cover the wires. Any side loading would be carried by the potting.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Offroader » Jan 20 2019 3:57pm

I got rid of the foam sheets at the sides of the battery and decided to cut dense foam insulation and stick it at the places where there were no wires. There shouldn't be much sideways forces so this should hold the battery firmly in place and not pressure on the wires. It should also allow for better cooling then using foam sheets on the sides.

The only issue is I'm not sure if I made the foam thick enough as I cut each piece to size and stuck it on. The side panels were elevated when I put them on.

The battery sits extremely tight in foam and it embeds itself into the foam so there should really be practically no side ways movements.

Image

Image

The other side
Image


This is what I used before on the sides of the battery, multiple sheets of foam. This also probably insulated the battery from shedding heat. It also pushed mainly on the wires to hold the battery in place.
Image

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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 20 2019 6:06pm

I'm currently building an 18S14P pack from Sanyo GAs's. I found my old SLA was lacking punch and I was having to crank the knob all the way up to get decent welds.
So I made a little 4S2P pack from old/spare 18650's and wired it in parallel with my SLA. It seems to be enough and now I don't need to crank the welder to the max to get good welds. :)

Cheers
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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Offroader » Jan 20 2019 7:40pm

How big was your SLA battery? I use a large one that was intended for a large SUV or ford expedition. It welds .15 nickel very easily.

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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 20 2019 8:06pm

Offroader wrote:
Jan 20 2019 7:40pm
How big was your SLA battery? I use a large one that was intended for a large SUV or ford expedition. It welds .15 nickel very easily.
It's the old battery from my SUV, 750CCA, but is about 7-8 years old and was removed from my SUV after it was drained from an interior light being left on overnight. It's the age of the battery, not it's capacity that's the issue.
I didn't want to spend any money on a new SLA...especially when I'm surrounded by unused lithium...hence why I put some of it to use. :D
The cells I used were 4 x Sanyo GA's that accidentally went to 1.5V once and 4 x old laptop battery pack cells. I know not to normally mix old/new or diff capacity cells, etc, but in this case I don't care what happens to these cells anyway and checking the cell voltages and temps to make sure it's ok during use.
So far this little booster pack is not even getting warm to the touch even though ambient temps are high (40C+) here currently cause of a big heatwave.

My JP is certainly proving to be a worthwhile investment...this ~3.2Kwhr (252 cell) pack is already sold, and I have several more smaller packs planned for my new LMX once it arrives. :)

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 21 2019 4:31am

Here's my setup and the in-progress battery build :)
DSC_5209.JPG
DSC_5211.JPG
As can be seen here, I have my 750CCA SLA, PSU (set to 15V), and 4S2P booster pack. Before I added the booster pack the PSU would jump to 15A charge to the SLA immediately following each weld and then taper off. Now with the booster the PSU only jumps to 6-7A after each weld and I can turn the welder time down half a turn compared to before. :)

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by tomjasz » Jan 25 2019 4:28pm

I have 3 welders. I bought the JP first. I was enticed by all the progress made on the second welder I bought, also here on ES. BUT I have to send it back, unused for a fix. SO, I bought a second JP as my backup. The first still works fine. This JP welder seems to get the least attention, and yet in my experience (yes limited) it's more reliable.

As Always YMMV
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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riba2233   1 MW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by riba2233 » Jan 27 2019 1:51pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Jan 20 2019 8:06pm

My JP is certainly proving to be a worthwhile investment...this ~3.2Kwhr (252 cell) pack is already sold, and I have several more smaller packs planned for my new LMX once it arrives. :)

Cheers
Thanks, I 'm really glad to hear that! :)
tomjasz wrote:
Jan 25 2019 4:28pm
I have 3 welders. I bought the JP first. I was enticed by all the progress made on the second welder I bought, also here on ES. BUT I have to send it back, unused for a fix. SO, I bought a second JP as my backup. The first still works fine. This JP welder seems to get the least attention, and yet in my experience (yes limited) it's more reliable.

As Always YMMV


Thanks for nice words! :)

sevillano1982   100 µW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by sevillano1982 » Jan 28 2019 6:06am

Please, i send you private mesage. Can you verify it?
I need one kit standard for spain.

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by bobmutch » Jan 28 2019 9:13pm

litespeed wrote:
Dec 30 2018 12:16pm
side-pull-POS-NEG.jpg
side-pull-POS-NEG.jpg (175.29 KiB) Viewed 779 times
Hi Tom,

I read your post of the reply from Bryce Bytheway from Sunstone Engineering on welding copper and you seem to be in the know. So when I was looking at other posts of yours I saw the side pulls on the above battery and I always wanted to ask some one in the know about the correct way to pull off a long line of parallel cells.

So you have a 15P and you although you have a good bus bar running down those 15 cells your pulling your NEG and POS wires off on the side, like from the last 2 cells. This appears to be a very poor design but that may because of my lack of understanding. As current travels in series wouldn't it be better to have 15 jacketed wires of equal length twisted fitted into a connector (yes perhaps an overkill). Or you could use 8 jacketed wires and pull them off in between each 1.875 cells give or take a little. Or perhaps even 4 jacketed wires from from each 3.75 cells.

I'm not sure you build the above battery but what is your take on this issue please.

Bob
London.Ontario.Canada
my ride Fuji 72V20Ah LiPo, CA3, 18F MC, 1500W Rear Hub. I'm here to learn.

litespeed   100 kW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by litespeed » Jan 29 2019 6:48pm

Can you draw a picture to convey your thoughts?

As far as soldering the wire from the middle or the end of the run I call bull shit on that. Both ways draw current and voltage. Without sophisticated equipment you WILL not be able to tell the difference and even there would be the equivalent of slicing hairs.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 29 2019 7:58pm

Anymore opinions our solutions ?

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by Grider » Feb 21 2019 8:47am

I can't find where to purchase the JP spot welder.
Someone post a link please.

NetPro   10 mW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by NetPro » Feb 21 2019 8:57am

Has anyone found a good supplier of "pure" nickel strips (not the nickel-plated steel kind) 0.20 mm thick X 8 or 10 mm wide?
I bought some through aliexpress but I am afraid they are made of some alloy that causes the electrodes to stick big time.
I have tried different electrodes material and thickness and even bought the Glidcop type from Sunstone but the stickiness continue.
Played with different settings (welding time, electrode pressure, voltage) to no avail.
This is happening with four different welders: A 800 W/S CD , JP and kWeld as well as MOT and I have run out of things to try.

Because the 0.15 trips don't stick to the electrodes, by the process of elimination I am blaming the thicker strips' alloy as the culprit.

Anybody have acquired 0.20 thick nickel that does not stick to the electrodes?

Thanks.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by fechter » Feb 21 2019 11:48am

It sounds like you don't have enough current. You might try a stronger battery as a supply. The other thing to try is slotting the nickel so the electrodes are on opposite sides of the slot.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: JP spot welder

Post by NetPro » Feb 21 2019 1:19pm

That's what I originally thought and figured that by buying this battery (brand-new) for the JP welder, I would be all-set:

OptimaYellow Top Deep Cycle Battery, Group Size 31T, 900 CC.
https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/y ... le-battery
Manufacturer claims an Internal Resistance of 0.0025

But no cigar: electrodes continued to stick when using the 0.20 nickel.

Then, I built my first MOT using this transformer:
SAMSUNG DE26-00126B MICROWAVE TRANSFORMER SHV-U1870D *B01
https://tinyurl.com/yy566dr7
Then, added a second MOT with secondaries in parallel, then a third one (all 3 identical, of course) and still no difference.
Even tried a Harbor Freight 220 volt spot welder transformer (tested 3, 4, 5 and 6 turns on the secondary) then two of them in parallel.

All along, the powerful CD 800 Watts/sec, with plenty of juice, was doing the same thing.
http://frikkieg.blogspot.com/
Mind you, this unit was built with three 1.070 Farad with a 0.001 ESR at up to 25V. (And I confirmed these specs when I received them)
Enough power to blow a big hole through the nickel and the battery can if cranked high enough.
I also tried all-copper 2 AWG cable to wire my setups but saw no change :(

The slotted nickel strip? I tried that with no luck, unfortunately.

So, recently, I bought one kWeld unit and though, electrodes are sticking a little less, I can't say I have resolved the issue.

In summary, I can get a darn good nugget with all my welders using the 0.20 mm nickel, but the doggone electrodes stick big time.
Not so with the 0.15 mm thick one and I find hard to believe the difference of .005 ONLY is the reason for all this trouble.

Given all the things I have tried, buying a known-good nickel material is the next logical step.
At least, it would eliminate this as the problem's source.

Hopefully, someone can point me to a trusted vendor. I have tried 2 on Aliexpress (a while back) and those strips have kept me busy for a long time, trying to eliminate the stickiness.

Thanks for reading this mini-book :)

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