Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

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roshan   1 W

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Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by roshan » Jan 10 2016 12:03am

Hi guys, I've been experimenting with Juin Tech cable actuated hydraulic brakes. I must say, I am impressed. These work way better than Avid BB7s. So I contacted the factory and just ordered a bunch. Retail price $220. Anyone interested? More the quantity, more leverage we can have on prices.

http://www.biktrix.com/store.html#!/Jui ... y=16174711
Coupon code: 3PL7U6GIMWBW for 10% off.
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by tomjasz » Jan 10 2016 12:19am

Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by BobTheBuilder » Jan 10 2016 12:20am

These work great. However, half in between actual performance of mechanical vs hydraulic only brakes. The inside clearance from caliper to spokes is narrower than all the other hydraulic calipers I've used

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by BobTheBuilder » Jan 10 2016 12:23am

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Mechanical pull hydraulic calipers
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by tomjasz » Jan 10 2016 12:53am

BobTheBuilder wrote:These work great. However, half in between actual performance of mechanical vs hydraulic only brakes. The inside clearance from caliper to spokes is narrower than all the other hydraulic calipers I've used
A couple of reviews wrote just the opposite and said they had a great fit with no shims
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by roshan » Jan 10 2016 1:04am


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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Chalo » Jan 10 2016 1:40am

My first disc brakes, which I got more than twenty years ago, worked the same way. They also had red anodized calipers. For a number of reasons, they kinda sucked. I mean, at the time, it was sort of cool that they worked at all. V-brakes weren't around yet, so the alternatives were mostly lame in one way or another.

If you don't need to dump a whole lot of kinetic energy at once, these cable/hydraulic brakes seem like pointless frippery for vain guys who like to buy valentines for themselves (which is basically everyone who insists hydraulic brakes are necessary).

On the other hand, if you do need to dump a whole lot of kinetic energy in a hurry, they seem like a great way to boil the hydraulic fluid or otherwise cook the brake until it fails, because it's all right up next to the brake pad where the heat is concentrated. There is no cool side to this hydraulic system. It's not an issue for the vast majority of potential buyers of these brakes, who don't actually need anything special at all. (They just think they do, so these brakes should work great for them. And it'll make them feel special, like a valentine should.)
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jan 10 2016 2:04am

Lol... You're crackin' me up Chalo. I probably think this song is about me. Haha!

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Lurkin » Jan 10 2016 2:09am

roshan wrote:These work way better than Avid BB7s.
Let me know if you are getting rid of any old BB7s.... could be interested in those!

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by macribs » Jan 10 2016 8:49am

More like semi-converting? With the risk of seeming slow I got to ask, will not these hybrid brakes bring you the worst of both worlds from cable/hydraulic brakes? You got the weight from hydraulic, with the pad wearing need for more fill of fluid. And you got the lesser sturdy and reliable cable all the way from brake level at the handlebar to the caliper.

And priced at 220 $? For me it seems to be the obvious choice to choose one over the other, and not the hybrid.

Chalo wrote: If you don't need to dump a whole lot of kinetic energy at once, these cable/hydraulic brakes seem like pointless frippery for vain guys who like to buy valentines for themselves (which is basically everyone who insists hydraulic brakes are necessary).

We've been over this before, and like I said back then there are lots of valid reasons people will choose hydraulics over cable mechanics.
Come to think of it, I once saw you recommend not getting disc brake at all because drum brakes worked just as well. I know you got skills chalo but when it comes to brakes I think you really should read up and smell the coffee. :wink:
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by tomjasz » Jan 10 2016 11:15am

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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 10 2016 11:26am

I guess I gotta send myself a Valentine...
...Mechanicals are dandy for melow riding...but suck severely for aggressive riding.
...Mechanicals don't suck because they can't apply force...they suck because they modulate that force poorly.
Mechanicals tend to have an On/Off feeling, whereas Hydros can have a controllable range of bite point engagement.

I'll take hydros if I'm racing downhill, the modulation control is necessary.
I don't understand how these brakes expect to function well...with the master cylinder near the heat and noting to stop the mushy cable feel
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Chalo » Jan 10 2016 7:31pm

Leebolectric wrote:...Mechanicals don't suck because they can't apply force...they suck because they modulate that force poorly.
Mechanicals tend to have an On/Off feeling, whereas Hydros can have a controllable range of bite point engagement.
That's pretty much the description of my problem with hydraulic discs. They're difficult to get a little bit of braking from.

My ideal brake allows you to squeeze the lever just a little, and get just a little braking force in return. Squeeze a little more, and get a little more, and so forth. They don't give a LOT of braking force until you squeeze HARD. But when you do, they should provide a LOT of force. To me, that's ideal.

The problem with drum brakes and caliper brakes is that no matter how hard you squeeze, they can never give you really fierce braking. But they can be really good in the more usual low-to-moderate range of braking force, predictable and proportional.

The problem with most hydraulic discs and a few V-brakes is at the other end of the force spectrum-- you can't squeeze just a little and get just a little braking force. It's more like squeeze a little, brake hard. Squeeze a little harder, brake really hard. And so on, until way before you're really getting serious on the lever, the brake is maxed out and won't give you any more. That's the dynamic problem with discs and most especially hydro discs-- too much gain at the lever, without any extra maximum braking power to go along with it. At least cable brakes allow you to use different levers, or adjustable ratio levers, to tune their response.

Most guys won't reach that point-- max braking power-- because they'll get chucked off long before they get there. But I've weighed between 300 and 400 pounds pretty much the whole time discs and V-brakes have been mainstream, and I don't ride suspension bikes that pitch forward under braking. I can push a lot of brakes to the limit (a lot of forks too).

Anyway, I think many guys here mistake lever gain for brake power, when it's not the same thing at all. Lever gain is the thing that makes you crash when something surprises you and you grab way too much brake without intending to. Brake power is the thing that makes you have to slide back and put your chest on the saddle while bracing against the bars to keep from tipping up. Brake power is the thing that permanently bends your fork back when you didn't hit anything. You really don't want to be able to do that with one finger, like the articles in bike magazines would have you believe.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Mammalian04 » Jan 10 2016 8:11pm

Your post could have been the written story for my crash and dislocated shoulder Chalo.

Panic stop, grab brake, wheel locked, pain and surgery result. Doh!

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Lurkin » Jan 10 2016 9:25pm

Chalo wrote:
That's pretty much the description of my problem with hydraulic discs. They're difficult to get a little bit of braking from.

My ideal brake allows you to squeeze the lever just a little, and get just a little braking force in return. Squeeze a little more, and get a little more, and so forth. They don't give a LOT of braking force until you squeeze HARD. But when you do, they should provide a LOT of force. To me, that's ideal.

The problem with drum brakes and caliper brakes is that no matter how hard you squeeze, they can never give you really fierce braking. But they can be really good in the more usual low-to-moderate range of braking force, predictable and proportional.

The problem with most hydraulic discs and a few V-brakes is at the other end of the force spectrum-- you can't squeeze just a little and get just a little braking force. It's more like squeeze a little, brake hard. Squeeze a little harder, brake really hard. And so on, until way before you're really getting serious on the lever, the brake is maxed out and won't give you any more. That's the dynamic problem with discs and most especially hydro discs-- too much gain at the lever, without any extra maximum braking power to go along with it. At least cable brakes allow you to use different levers, or adjustable ratio levers, to tune their response.

Most guys won't reach that point-- max braking power-- because they'll get chucked off long before they get there. But I've weighed between 300 and 400 pounds pretty much the whole time discs and V-brakes have been mainstream, and I don't ride suspension bikes that pitch forward under braking. I can push a lot of brakes to the limit (a lot of forks too).

Anyway, I think many guys here mistake lever gain for brake power, when it's not the same thing at all. Lever gain is the thing that makes you crash when something surprises you and you grab way too much brake without intending to. Brake power is the thing that makes you have to slide back and put your chest on the saddle while bracing against the bars to keep from tipping up. Brake power is the thing that permanently bends your fork back when you didn't hit anything. You really don't want to be able to do that with one finger, like the articles in bike magazines would have you believe.
It's posts of this sentiment that has driven me to be interested in giving BB7 brakes a go, soon as cashflow allows. It interests me because I have used hydraulic brakes extensively, and only cheapo mechanical brakes to compare to. The mechanical brakes were rubbish, but I think its more likely to be a low quality brake (regardless of type) vs high quality brake (regardless of type). Guess I'll know soon enough.

When I think about the way a hydraulic brake works, the brake itself shouldn't have modulation at all. Squeeze the lever, pressure fluid with no give, push piston in. Any modulation therefore is from the pad composition, not the brake caliper. I've always thought this is the case and the Shimano resin pads certainly do not bite immediately. I briefly tested some Chinese knock off pads claiming to be resin, which were really more like low quality sintered pads - just full of metal. The brake became on/off as soon as they began to bed in and were just dangerous. I removed them, replaced with Shimano resin and back to normal. There's definitely a graduation between small and large force, although the difference between them is not huge when the brakes are freshly bleed.

Alternatively squeeze a mechanical brake, cable may have some give, push piston in. Modulation is both in the cable and the pad. Testing this is yet to be seen, I need to get BB7 first. This is all theory of course, no doubt I am probably about to be corrected :lol: In either case, if I can get mechanical brakes which have a similar responsiveness to hydraulic brakes, with similar pressure applied, I cannot see how this will change the 'oh poo' moments where you panic and crush the brake lever, resulting in flipping the bike and pancaking. I have also done this with hydros Mammalian04 and I'm curious to see the result. Would certainly save my ego in front of hot joggers :oops:

Drums aren't really an option for me with the current setup, rim brakes and larger lads are a poor combination. 8)

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by amberwolf » Jan 10 2016 9:33pm

Lurkin wrote:I cannot see how this will change the 'oh poo' moments where you panic and crush the brake lever, resulting in flipping the bike and pancaking.
That's about training and practice in such situations (for safety's sake including "tests" where a staged (but unpredictable to the testee) situation will require implementing what you've learned to not do that). ;)

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Hillhater » Jan 10 2016 9:40pm

:o ohh..Ahhh !..shiny shiny bling...
Why ?.....is it the pretty colours ?
You can buy full hydro Shimano/ Avid, etc systems for less money.....many less than $100.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 10 2016 9:47pm

many many words...but real life tells more truth.
Take a top end pair of hydros...and a pair of top end mechanicals....go to a DownHill park.
Try runs on both setups...tell me how your hands feel after each run.

Any and ALL real Downhillers will laugh at BB7s...your hands will ache and you will wreck more. (real downhillers, as in people who ride ALOT and know gear)
If there was merit in the system, they would make a carbon version and put it on sponsored riders bikes...but mechanicals for commuters and people too cheap or inexperienced with the simple process of bleeding brakes.
Experience, powerful stuff ;)
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by nutnspecial » Jan 10 2016 11:01pm

I was just about to call chalo out, then realized this is going on in a for sale thread lol.
Where is the master thread to discuss? We got 'kicked out' of the last mech brake thread hehehe

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by roshan » Jan 10 2016 11:13pm

nutspecial wrote:I was just about to call chalo out, then realized this is going on in a for sale thread lol.
Where is the master thread to discuss? We got 'kicked out' of the last mech brake thread hehehe
Thought I'll let you guys go crazy. A few of us have used these brakes on our bike and we find the following advantages over mechanical/hydraulic brakes:
- Both pads grab the disc. Not just one pad pushing the disc toward the other pad like traditional mechanical brakes.
- Much more controlled stop than mechanical or hydraulic disc brakes.
- Really easy to tweet and tune when out in the bush - all you need is an allen key and worst case a spare brake cable (that's if you completely wreck the cable).

Some cyclocross folks used these at the 3 peaks race last couple of years and absolutely loved these brakes.
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by roshan » Jan 10 2016 11:15pm

Lurkin wrote:
roshan wrote:These work way better than Avid BB7s.
Let me know if you are getting rid of any old BB7s.... could be interested in those!
Sure. For the same price as you'd find them on Amazon. Just because I'm not in the charity business :)

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Chalo » Jan 11 2016 12:02am

Leebolectric wrote:Take a top end pair of hydros...and a pair of top end mechanicals....go to a DownHill park.
Try runs on both setups...tell me how your hands feel after each run.
That all depends, doesn't it? How weak are your hands, child? I work with mine, so they're not weak at all.

How many of us ride at downhill parks, and how often, compared to those of us who ride streets and paths in the real world? You don't need any kind of actual equipment to ride like eXXtrEEme badass in your dreams, which is where a lot of y'all seem to live.
Any and ALL real Downhillers will laugh at BB7s...your hands will ache and you will wreck more. (real downhillers, as in people who ride ALOT and know gear)
If there was merit in the system, they would make a carbon version and put it on sponsored riders bikes...but mechanicals for commuters and people too cheap or inexperienced with the simple process of bleeding brakes.
Experience, powerful stuff ;)
Self-delusion: powerful stuff.

Pros ride what they are paid to ride, because posers will buy whatever pros are paid to ride. And manufacturers want to sell whatever costs as much as the market will bear. That's the real situation.

Aside from which... Downhill racers don't actually need strong brakes. True fact. First of all, you can't apply nearly as much braking force on dirt before you skid the wheel as you can on pavement. Second, you can't apply nearly as much braking force going downhill as you can on flat ground before you turn the bike over. Third, you don't win races by slowing down any more than you have to.

A very long downhill MTB run might require a brake with a lot of total thermal capacity, but it doesn't require a brake that can apply a lot of force.

If you want to consider bikes that need and can use very strong and powerful brakes, you have to look at tandems. Those bikes are heavy with two riders, they go faster than single bikes because they only cut one hole in the air, and they are long which makes them very hard to tip up.

There is no clear consensus among high performance tamdemists as to what kind of brake is best. Because many of those bikes have heavy rims with lots of surface area, often a rim brake is best. For drag brakes used on long mountain descents, large drum brakes with cooling fins are the most proven. Some, but not nearly all, use discs-- but discs are acknowledged among serious tandemists to be prone to warping in demanding situations.
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 11 2016 12:59am

Lol...strong working hands here...but long mountain descents develop "arm pump" a very real condition.
Not just pro's...but all the elite class too...nobody finishes top ten with mechanicals.

"Downhill racers don't actually need strong brakes" is the one of the craziest things I've heard...
They need high power to slow down in short distances WITHOUT skidding...which requires modulation.
The only time they skimp on brakes is when they go WeightWeenie...but the vast majority use REAL downhill brakes.

My Hope V2 brakes...slow me with a feather pull, stop me with a gentle tug, and get me out of scary situations with a firm grip...never a strong effort AT ALL.
This lets me control how much the wheel skids, and can keep it at the edge of traction longer...real life results, i've riden BB7s plenty. ;)

As i stated...if mechanicals were that good of a design, the companies would make a carbon version to sell for more, they try everything they can.
...but they don't, because budget is the ONLY reason mechanicals win against hydros.
Pros would be paid to ride them if they were high end carbon or something...but they are not worth the development costs, because they will NEVER perform the same.
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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by nutnspecial » Jan 11 2016 1:52am

Chalo, why do I feel like this would be the same argument for/against suspension travel with you?

If you have an issue, maybe normal usage for you is beyond design capabilities due simply to weight. That's the only way I can think someone is boiling their fluid- hydro is the obvious choice for power and performance (WITHIN SPEC). See other things with wheels and how they relate . . . like motorcycles and cars . . . etc

Arm and hand strength? Fuuuu . . . Hydro can transfer more power to the caliper within system design limits, period- Yes, until you boil the thing, but that seems that's a unique problem to you.

Maybe you could try air brakes (like on tractor trailors) if you'd like to upgrade from mech? :wink:

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Re: Convert your mechanical disc to hydraulic discs!!

Post by Chalo » Jan 11 2016 2:02am

Leebolectric wrote:My Hope V2 brakes...slow me with a feather pull, stop me with a gentle tug, and get me out of scary situations with a firm grip...never a strong effort AT ALL.
That's exactly what I was saying is the problem with hydro discs-- you can't give a little pull on the lever and get a little braking force. Instead, you pull a little and stop harder than you needed/intended to.

I want brakes that give me the whole force range proportionally, meaning they don't brake hard unless I pull hard. That keeps you out of trouble.

Ask Mammalian04 about the consequences of too-abrupt lever response.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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