Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

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VasiliSk   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Jul 17 2019 2:39am

There is a different types of compound.. that one we are used is relatively soft and thus you still can disassemble and fix broken parts. it is a silicon compound.

Coating boards with lacquer was not enough for LMX, and even trying to seal wires output doesnt helped much, because some of those bikes getting really dirty or bein washed with high pressure water. There are still connectors inside, open for water and bunch of tiny wires. Few times board survived after drying, but that is not good for end-user, best option for them have completely sealed and don't worry at all.

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Aeron   10 W

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Aeron » Jul 17 2019 4:57am

ElectricGod wrote:
Jul 16 2019 8:02pm
Potting is good for manufacturers and at best a mixed bag for everybody else.

[...]

Please NEVER make potting mandatory!
While I agree with (most of) what you said, wasn't it clear that it was an option ?
VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 16 2019 3:13am
For 12F filling price will be about 15$
It's probably not the best place to have the "potting or not potting" debate.
VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:39am
those bikes [...] bein washed with high pressure water.
While we're at it, it's not a good idea for the rest of the bike...

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Jul 17 2019 5:42am

ElectricGod wrote:
Jul 16 2019 8:02pm

Potting is good for manufacturers and at best a mixed bag for everybody else.

While potting does improve water resistance and thermal conduction it also means the controller is NOT repairable. Mosfets and capacitors are the 2 BIG failure points in any controller. It is highly likely that controllers will suffer failures in these components. Potting prevents repairs of any kind.

Please NEVER make potting mandatory! The moment you do, like Mobipus (Who pots everything), lots of people like me who can fix just about anything will never buy from you. You want the largest market share you can get. Please keep potting a requested optional item.

There's other ways to protect from water incursion:

1. Use conformal to protect the electronics from water incursion. The controller boards already have this on them. My LCD modules did not. I added it. Conformal leaves the electronics still accessible for repairs if needed. You can do this yourself. Conformal can be found on ebay for $15. Also, coat the board in any electronic device...mp3 player, BT speaker, whatever in conformal. Let it cure. Immerse it in water while it's operating. If you coated everything, the device will still work.

2. Seal the controller shell with silicon caulk. This alone will take care of 99% of water incursion issues.

The heat dispersion effects of potting are known. IT does help in this regard. It cures into a plastic like material. it can help with hot spots inside the controller shell. The biggest hot spots are the mosfets and large electrolytic caps. These are also the 2 BIG items that fail the most often in controllers! The mosfets can be helped by adding more aluminum to the outside of the shell. The large caps can be helped by using low ESR, high grade caps. Most people won't be running these controllers at their limits, so heat dispersion won't really be an issue.

People requesting conformal:
1. Expect when your controller dies, that you will be buying a new one instead of replacing a $4 mosfet or cap.
2. Expect that your controller will be impervious to water incursion.
3. Expect that the hot spot components will run somewhat cooler.

If anybody wants the opinion of someone who has been repairing electronics since the late 1980's, don't EVER use potting. This is the number one reason why I can't fix stuff when it dies!
all i see is blablabla....and a bit of blablabla.....
the same shit as always.
99% of customers dont replace anything by himself.
if this means you will never be a customer -> great. go to your PV displayless shit controller.
if a controller dont die because of water liek adaptto, lots of problems are solved and no need for a repair.
nucular offers free repair when controller dies. so what? nobody said something when adaptto had his time.

someone who name himself as electricgod has allready enough problems.
so you are a cap and mosfet replacer. is this whats your determination?
because you ALLLLWAAYYSSS KNOW ALLLLLLL BETTER but why didnt you build a controller and make it "right"?
ya huh? its something different then replacing fets.

there is not a single competitor outside yet in this size, power and price range. Some idiots waiting about adaptto to overstart the journey of bad ass lazy support. Some ppl want it now and not in 1-3 months and the ppl who buyed are very happy with it. a few bugs still there but this controller beats them all.

i dont know how many controllers are sold but
a: i didnt read about a dead one or
b: someone who overheatet it in real world using.

now the optional potting makes it not rainproof....NO...you could use it U N D E R W A T E R .....its waterproof.
what else do you need? the option to replace fets?.....really?

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Jul 17 2019 5:51am

Aeron wrote:
Jul 17 2019 4:57am
VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:39am
those bikes [...] bein washed with high pressure water.
While we're at it, it's not a good idea for the rest of the bike...
depends. pretty sure were talking not about extremes pointing 5 inches away with 3000psi on every bearing you can find.
but cleaning it with brain enabled an OEM bike should handle it.
if you wanna happy customers, if you wanna no bad reputation, if you wanna make good sales you have to make stuff bombproof.
theres always the one who finds the dumbest idea doing something but if you dont want to drown in RMAs (like probably adaptto on rainy days) you do your best to make "bike stuff" water "resistant"

how many surrons are sold on this planet? nobody cant ever imagine...and what? they having a monster brick 36fet fully potted for a weak peaking 4-5kw bike. Ever heard of a dead controller?not that i know. this is how it works.

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ridethelightning » Jul 17 2019 7:57am

I think optional potting is the way to go.
i would not like to pay postage to russia of 100usd if i knew i just had to replace a cap that had obviously popped.
but enough about potting, back to more interesting stuff :D

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cheeko   100 W

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by cheeko » Jul 17 2019 11:35pm

Are many people charging through the controller or straight through the BMS, Is there any benefit charging through controller if you have BMS Fitted.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 18 2019 9:30pm

Merlin wrote:
Jul 17 2019 5:51am
Aeron wrote:
Jul 17 2019 4:57am
VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:39am
those bikes [...] bein washed with high pressure water.
While we're at it, it's not a good idea for the rest of the bike...
depends. pretty sure were talking not about extremes pointing 5 inches away with 3000psi on every bearing you can find.
but cleaning it with brain enabled an OEM bike should handle it.
if you wanna happy customers, if you wanna no bad reputation, if you wanna make good sales you have to make stuff bombproof.
theres always the one who finds the dumbest idea doing something but if you dont want to drown in RMAs (like probably adaptto on rainy days) you do your best to make "bike stuff" water "resistant"

how many surrons are sold on this planet? nobody cant ever imagine...and what? they having a monster brick 36fet fully potted for a weak peaking 4-5kw bike. Ever heard of a dead controller?not that i know. this is how it works.
I believe 5-6000 Sur-Ron have been sold so far on this planet. In Australia we have had probably 10 dead controllers, all X versions no standard controller fails.

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VasiliSk   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Jul 19 2019 1:08am

I think this is mostly due to local mosfet overheat. There aluminum PCB inside surron controller and it is not well attached to radiator, there some air gaps inside what may lead to some mosfet being stressed more. i have disassembled only two of them and both had this problem (X and not X)

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Jul 19 2019 11:07am

Well, if the potting is removable if it would be necessery to repar it sounds like a good idea to me.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Jul 19 2019 1:17pm

Yes I'd be **very** interested in finding potting compounds with strong thermal conductivity and anti-shock/vibration properties, that are also easily removable.

Likely a unicorn hunt. . .

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Jul 19 2019 1:40pm

VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:39am
There is a different types of compound.. that one we are used is relatively soft and thus you still can disassemble and fix broken parts. it is a silicon compound.
According to this it should be possible.

Jonno   100 W

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Jonno » Jul 19 2019 2:10pm

Seems a good idea.

Please pot my order 335C - 24F +lcd

Jonno
Modified EEB frame, 888 forks, 280mm DNM pit bike shock, QS273 40h V3 3.5t, Nucular Electronics 24F controller 300a, 92V @ 36ah 26650 cells, 300a BMS with bypass,
Hope V4 + Galfer 223mm discs + Variable regen braking.
Amongst other builds.

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 19 2019 8:33pm

john61ct wrote:
Jul 19 2019 1:17pm
Yes I'd be **very** interested in finding potting compounds with strong thermal conductivity and anti-shock/vibration properties, that are also easily removable.

Likely a unicorn hunt. . .
I had to laugh! Definitely a unicorn hunt!
There's some interesting chemistries out there for bonding agents...so who knows...maybe something that breaks down in UV or isopropyl?

A good percentage of any potting formula is filler materials that don't bond anything together. Those portions could be some kind of silicon or glass bead or wood pulp or whatever. All that really matters is that it remains trapped in the bonding material. OF course this is also the portion that does the heat conducting roll so you'd want something that does this job fairly well, but does not conduct current...like glass or ceramic beads.

The point of potting is to be non-removable and be impervious to chemicals, weather and stabilize whatever is buried in it.

I have never tried, but surely paint thinners or xylene or toluene will degrade it. I don't know what those chemicals will do to the plastic wraps on caps or to wire insulation or solder resist coatings. So it's possible these chemicals could be worse than buying another whatever potted device.

One of my disappointments was a $300 DC-DC converter I had bought a good while ago. It could take up to 150v in and deliver 40 amps at 12v out continuous. It's about the size of an 18 fet controller. It has over load protection and is fused. For no reason I can determine, it stopped working. I pulled off the covers only to discover...100% potted...never mind...can't replace whatever fiddling $4 part in there that failed!

I've found a few forms of potting that when heated sufficiently, got crumbly and soft. With a little picking away, it could be removed in chunks. Then again some others I've tried in the old reflow toaster oven were unaffected by lots of heat...well above the melting point of real 60/40 solder.

I use a silicon conformal from MG Chemicals. It holds up pretty well. It can be removed again with certain chemicals or just solder right through it. I have a scooter with a completely exposed DC-DC converter that I upgraded significantly. It's 100% open to the weather except for the conformal on it. I'd be willing to spray it down with water while powered up and under load without fear of damage. It sees 82v in and 12v/20 amps load. Where it is mounted is up in a hole with good air flow. It's board and components are completely exposed (except for the conformal) to whatever might spray up from the road. I doubt it will every have issues from weather exposure.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jul 20 2019 2:37am

Give it a rest, please. There is an option to get potting. No reason to start on potted/unfixable again.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Jul 20 2019 10:32am


ElectricGod wrote:I use a silicon conformal from MG Chemicals. It holds up pretty well.
Link please?


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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 23 2019 10:22am

john61ct wrote:
Jul 20 2019 10:32am
ElectricGod wrote:I use a silicon conformal from MG Chemicals. It holds up pretty well.
Link please?
Sorry for the slow response...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MG-Chemicals-S ... Swao1bADaT

A small bottle like this for somebody who repairs and mods electronics like I do lasts a good while. It's $15 a bottle, but it's going to coat a lot of electronics too! You paint it on like fingernail polish. For things that are going to be in direct exposure to the weather, I'll coat them with 5 or 6 layers. For stuff inside a generally water resistant shell...like a motor controller, I'll coat the small components with 1 or 2 layers.

I know Nucular uses conformal on their controllers. I wonder what brand and model it is?

This is the Nucular 12 fet. I've posted these pictures before back on page 16. The glossy coating on everything is conformal. The top side of the board is pretty thoroughly coated everywhere.

Image

While notice the bottom side of the same controller. It is dull looking since there is no conformal here. For something inside a generally water resistant shell, this is pretty reasonable use of conformal for protection. If anything, I'd add some at the small connections for the daughter boards.

Image
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by brumbrum » Jul 23 2019 1:50pm

If using a heat resistant conformal liquid coating, i suggest getting one that glows in UV light. Its very easy to miss areas when using a clear liquid and a thin coat can sometimes not give enough barrier to be waterproof. Obviously you'll need a UV torch to check your brush work :wink:

I'd much rather have my controller potted. :D

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 23 2019 3:05pm

brumbrum wrote:
Jul 23 2019 1:50pm
If using a heat resistant conformal liquid coating, i suggest getting one that glows in UV light. Its very easy to miss areas when using a clear liquid and a thin coat can sometimes not give enough barrier to be waterproof. Obviously you'll need a UV torch to check your brush work.
This is a good idea. I have no idea if the stuff I use fluoresces or not so you can see coverage.
It hasn't really been a problem after several applications for stuff exposed to the weather. Just be thorough and it's been OK.
I do agree...a single layer of conformal probably won't be a very good water barrier...and why I lay down several.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Jul 24 2019 3:31am

lacquer is everywhere except connectors. you just didn't noticed it. we don't use brush for most of board, we just put it in bath with lacquer. and it is dual layer

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 24 2019 7:08pm

VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 24 2019 3:31am
lacquer is everywhere except connectors. you just didn't noticed it. we don't use brush for most of board, we just put it in bath with lacquer. and it is dual layer
Exactly...no need for potting at all...at least not for water incursion.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

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VasiliSk   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Jul 25 2019 12:23am

it doesnt helps when you completely fill it with water

TheBMallory   10 W

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by TheBMallory » Jul 25 2019 4:30am

Hey !
just received my nucular 12f, thanks Vasilisk !

here's what you get :
Image
note that there's no male 2.8mm 6p molex connector for the hall sensor wiring, you might want to stock some in order to save some time.

other than that, it's time to upgrade my q76r !

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Jul 25 2019 5:30am

What happens with the extra connectors inside the controller if we choose potting?
I mean, there are connetions for more things to be connected directly to the controller right?
Like pas, can buss, throttle etc. if needed.
Will they be protected so they are still useful?

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Jul 25 2019 7:53am

TheBMallory wrote:
Jul 25 2019 4:30am
Hey !
just received my nucular 12f, thanks Vasilisk !

here's what you get :
Image
note that there's no male 2.8mm 6p molex connector for the hall sensor wiring, you might want to stock some in order to save some time.

other than that, it's time to upgrade my q76r !
cut that crap connector :D
for hall use something waterproof.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/New-M14-IP68-As ... Sw9NdXvmKU


and please make pics and videos from your 76 upgrade =)

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VasiliSk   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Jul 25 2019 8:32am

What happens with the extra connectors inside the controller if we choose potting?
If you didnt ask to add extra wires for everything in advance, they become unavailable. you will need to remove compound and fill it in again

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