Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by John in CR » Jan 06 2020 12:46pm

Altair wrote:
Jan 05 2020 7:06pm
larsb wrote:
Jan 05 2020 2:47pm
I’m still looking for the value :D
I am also looking for the exact value. Is it the same as the max phase current, or less?
I don't understand how that could be a useful number as bogging a bldc motor down to a stall is the worst thing you can do to a motor and controller. It's a commonly shown stat for brushed motors but our motors work in a very different way. Behavior during launch and how the current ramps up from 0 at a dead start is what I think you guys are looking for, and that is completely configurable. Also I seem to remember Vasily mentioning the use of the "clutch" feature to create crazy hard launches without making that a setting for every twist of the throttle. The phase current limit of the 12F is 250A and for short pulses I think you may be able to go 25% high using the Boost feature. I've bumped into thermal limiting of a controller a couple of times during hard use over the past couple of months, so I haven't tried Boost, and use 125A battery 250A phase current limits. At just over 20kw peak draw from the battery on my dual 12F rig I don't need to look for ways to stress any components of my drive system. Stressing components is the sure route to failures and my goal is absolute reliability.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Jan 06 2020 12:50pm

I guess some "hotrodding people" don't care if their drivetrain gets wrecked as long as they're "winning"?

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jan 06 2020 1:25pm

Just askin’.. i am riding legal m’self, thank you :mrgreen:

How the hell did you get 10MW john? Don’t you ride bikes also besides the posting?
Last edited by larsb on Jan 06 2020 3:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

Altair   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 06 2020 2:54pm

To clarify my concern about the "stalled-rotor current", I want to use a Fatbike as a light trials bike. I've been doing this for the last 3-4 years with my first build.
When I have to climb a rock face with not much acceleration space at the bottom of it, that's where I need to be able to get an instant hit of torque to get to speed as quickly as possible. The duration of this phase is only half a second or so. The current needed is still below the maximum of the controller, or the motor's "short time max current" limit.
But what happens with some controllers like the Adaptto is that the current ramps up with the RPM! This is the perfect recipe for crashing, as the actual current to the motor is not related anymore to throttle position, but rather to the RPM of the motor. This produces a RISING torque curve with speed, which is the worst thing with a powerful motor!
So that's why I want to know if the Nucular has this "defect" or if it has "constant current with RPM", before I spend for yet another controller.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 06 2020 3:10pm

And to clarify further, I'll never be holding the bike stationary with WOT !
At the instant that the throttle is fully opened, brakes are off and I'm going.
It's just that I want the same torque to the motor at zero RPM and at ANY other RPM, if I hold the throttle constant. (EDIT: Read that as: From zero RPM up to maybe 50% of the max RPMs.)
Yes I understand that at some point, the RPMs are limited by the BEMF of the motor and that will reduce the torque. But this is not a street bike, it is a low-speed mountain goat-of-a-bike.
Last edited by Altair on Jan 06 2020 4:34pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jan 06 2020 3:47pm

Altair wrote:
Jan 06 2020 3:10pm
It's just that I want the same torque to the motor at zero RPM and at ANY other RPM, if I hold the throttle constant.
Yep, that’s it.
Last edited by larsb on Jan 06 2020 5:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 06 2020 4:29pm

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 06 2020 4:34pm

Deleted
Last edited by Altair on Jan 06 2020 5:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jan 06 2020 5:09pm

It was not directed at you altair :thumb: Communication in writing is hard, right? I was just pointing out that you and i both don't expect that we can have endless torque up to full rpm.
/cheers

Altair   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 06 2020 5:40pm

All Right, Lars!
Sorry for getting pumped-up :P
I'll delete my 2 useless posts.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Jan 06 2020 8:25pm

from experience the 24f nuc pulls pretty good if you are on the shorter geared side.
on my lmx with 18x3.5 tire i could wheelspin short on a dry road with feets on the pegs.
short only because a blink later the grip flips the bike :D

if you wanna trial with "a" bike. yep. without any "secret clutch settings" you have pretty good starting trq.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by drvosjeca » Jan 08 2020 2:32pm

Im wondering what could i expect from double nuc12 setup on my dual motor scooter?

Im running stock at 2x1000Watt (3600Watt max) at moment, but im wondering how much power could i expect to push through without big impact on battery performance/range?

Also what im interested is if other screens work with these controllers, or having kit is a must?

thanks in advance

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PITMIX   100 W

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Jan 09 2020 12:48am

2 x Nuc12F = 20kW max.
Aixam 550 Twin retrophite Qs 138 70H, Thermo-Nucular electronics 24F, LG Chem 20s 60Ah

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 09 2020 12:04pm

PITMIX wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:48am
2 x Nuc12F = 20kW max.
That's maximum values and NOT something that can be depended on.
Everything has continuous ratings where it is reliable long term.
The Nominal value is what you can depend on...AKA 5kw per controller.
With additional cooling, it can handle more continuous wattage.
As is...5kw per controller is reliable.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 09 2020 12:16pm

drvosjeca wrote:
Jan 08 2020 2:32pm
Im wondering what could i expect from double nuc12 setup on my dual motor scooter?

Im running stock at 2x1000Watt (3600Watt max) at moment, but im wondering how much power could i expect to push through without big impact on battery performance/range?

Also what im interested is if other screens work with these controllers, or having kit is a must?

thanks in advance
The LCD has several themes you can use. You need the LCD to program the controller and for EV status.
These are pretty great controllers.

Your EV will lose range with more current draw.
It's a safe bet your current draw is going to increase.
Exactly how much range you lose is dependent on your pack and your current draw.
Expect a Nucular 12 fet to be able to pull down 75 amps at 5kw and 66 volts.
IF you have 2 of them that's something like 150 amps.
It is quite possible that your pack and related wiring can't handle this much current loading.
You said 3600 watts max. No idea your pack voltage so I can't guess at an amperage.
It is probable that there is not a lot of "room" for more amperage.
If it is a manufactured scooter, they tend to not over engineer them very much as this adds cost.
Pretty much everything mass produced goes through some amount of value engineering.
This is where they look for ways to cut corners and manufacturing costs without impacting quality and performance too much.
If your scooter was made in China...expect value engineering to play a fairly significant impact on its capabilities for current handling.

No idea what motors you have.
I hope they have temp sensors in them and halls.
If not, add them. You want halls and temp sensing.

I do phase current tuning based on motor temps and torque output.
I pick what I feel is a safe value for initial set up.
Then I ride around a bit and watch the motor temps.
If the motor is getting too hot, I turn down the phase amps.
If it's not getting too hot, I turn phase amps up another 10%.
I check the feel of acceleration. With more phase amps, the motors ought to make more torque.
There is a limit to torque. All motors have a maximum amount of torque they can make.
You keep setting phase amps higher until you feel that torque is not increasing.
You also watch motor temps. More phase amps means more motor heat.
Go for the maximum phase amps possible that produces more torque without over heating the motors.
Just for long term reliability, I then back off phase amps by 5%.
Running at the maximum possible all the time is going to shorten the life span of everything.
Now go for a long ride...like 3 -5 miles at full power.
Keep a close watch on motor temps. You may see that your motors get too hot.
Turn down phase amps a little more until long ride motor temps stabilize at a safe temperature.
It is common that the motor can make more torque than is safe due to heat build-up.
Expect that you will turn down phase amps a fair bit below the maximum torque capability to keep the motor from overheating.

What is a safe motor temp?
If you look at typical wire used for winding motors, the common temp values are 160C and 200C.
Thanks to value engineering, it is common that the 200C wire is not used except in high end motors.
Assume that 160C is your maximum motor temp if you can't verify this.
I've run motors well over 200C and they can handle it SHORT term, but expect them to burn out at any moment.
The location of your temp sensor will impact how good it is at measuring motor heat.
You want it buried in the motor windings pretty deeply.
Deep in the windings is where the heat is the highest.
This is what you need to stay aware of.
Temps at the surface of the windings are going to be a lot less than down inside them.
160C on the surface of the windings is 220-250C deep inside them.

The Nucular controllers are a pretty significant improvement over previous generations of controllers. You will get a great controller with tons of features and options that will make your motors run the best they can. This is a great option for your scooter. Expect that these controllers are going to require additional re-engineering of other aspects of your scooter to accommodate them.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 09 2020 1:22pm, edited 2 times in total.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by madin88 » Jan 09 2020 12:57pm

Altair wrote:
Jan 05 2020 7:06pm
larsb wrote:
Jan 05 2020 2:47pm
I’m still looking for the value :D
I am also looking for the exact value. Is it the same as the max phase current, or less?
At stall (bike against wall) the controller is pushing at minimum the set phase current.
I tried with 400A and the display did show 410-420A.

For those who have concerns about a stall test, the main difference between stall and driving is that there will be no airflow over the motor wires so they could overheat, but for a few seconds it should be OK.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jan 09 2020 3:29pm

Maybe i’ll have to buy one :wink:
Too bad the original 100kerpm and rc motor compatibility didn’t hold up entirely, then i’d already got it

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Jonno » Jan 10 2020 2:15am

Just do it Larsb, the 24f is on another level compared to the AE96600.
I've already ordered a 2nd one for my next project. :D
Modified EEB frame, 888 forks, 280mm DNM pit bike shock, QS273 40h V3 3.5t, Nucular Electronics 24F controller 300a, 92V @ 36ah 26650 cells, 300a BMS,
Hope V4 + Galfer 223mm discs + Variable regen braking.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by drvosjeca » Jan 10 2020 9:52am

ElectricGod wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:16pm
Your EV will lose range with more current draw.

Expect a Nucular 12 fet to be able to pull down 75 amps at 5kw and 66 volts.
IF you have 2 of them that's something like 150 amps.
It is quite possible that your pack and related wiring can't handle this much current loading.
You said 3600 watts max. No idea your pack voltage so I can't guess at an amperage.
It is probable that there is not a lot of "room" for more amperage.
If it is a manufactured scooter, they tend to not over engineer them very much as this adds cost.


No idea what motors you have.
I hope they have temp sensors in them and halls.
If not, add them. You want halls and temp sensing.

Let me first say thanks for such extensive reply...

My scooter is zero 10X if that helps with any ideas about what i have, and it is 52 Volts version with 22.4Ah battery.

I already know that i cant expect to much from what i have when it comes to battery, but my plan is to double the power in the end. I dont know how much will i be able to get from initial step with just controllers swap, but that is first step i would like to take. Later as time goes i plan to build battery pack from 21700 cells in order to get more juice while saving space. Little deck raising will be needed, but not a big deal. New BMS and wiring all woud get in line, but like said, that is in next phase.
On that time i was thinking about going for 60V or even 72V battery pack. Will see.

For me personally speed doesnt matter much, about 55km/h what i have now is more then enough, torque is what i like and since im heavy guy its also what i need.

Stock controllers just cant be altered precisely, shunt mode on dual system... well it is not gonna happen. :)) So more freedom and better power managing is what i hope for with these.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Altair » Jan 10 2020 5:55pm

Thanks madin for the confirmation!
I don't need lots of current anyway, so I'm going with the 12F, which is already ordered.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 10 2020 7:38pm

drvosjeca wrote:
Jan 10 2020 9:52am
ElectricGod wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:16pm
Your EV will lose range with more current draw.

Expect a Nucular 12 fet to be able to pull down 75 amps at 5kw and 66 volts.
IF you have 2 of them that's something like 150 amps.
It is quite possible that your pack and related wiring can't handle this much current loading.
You said 3600 watts max. No idea your pack voltage so I can't guess at an amperage.
It is probable that there is not a lot of "room" for more amperage.
If it is a manufactured scooter, they tend to not over engineer them very much as this adds cost.


No idea what motors you have.
I hope they have temp sensors in them and halls.
If not, add them. You want halls and temp sensing.

Let me first say thanks for such extensive reply...

My scooter is zero 10X if that helps with any ideas about what i have, and it is 52 Volts version with 22.4Ah battery.

I already know that i cant expect to much from what i have when it comes to battery, but my plan is to double the power in the end. I dont know how much will i be able to get from initial step with just controllers swap, but that is first step i would like to take. Later as time goes i plan to build battery pack from 21700 cells in order to get more juice while saving space. Little deck raising will be needed, but not a big deal. New BMS and wiring all woud get in line, but like said, that is in next phase.
On that time i was thinking about going for 60V or even 72V battery pack. Will see.

For me personally speed doesnt matter much, about 55km/h what i have now is more then enough, torque is what i like and since im heavy guy its also what i need.

Stock controllers just cant be altered precisely, shunt mode on dual system... well it is not gonna happen. :)) So more freedom and better power managing is what i hope for with these.
You are welcome! It is always my desire to help others.

Talking about your specific EV is off topic for this thread...since it is about Nucular controllers. I'll take this offline from here.

Just assume your are getting 2 of the 12 fet controllers soon. You won't regret it!
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by macribs » Jan 12 2020 6:23pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:16pm


What is a safe motor temp?
If you look at typical wire used for winding motors, the common temp values are 160C and 200C.
Thanks to value engineering, it is common that the 200C wire is not used except in high end motors.
Assume that 160C is your maximum motor temp if you can't verify this.
I've run motors well over 200C and they can handle it SHORT term, but expect them to burn out at any moment.
The location of your temp sensor will impact how good it is at measuring motor heat.
You want it buried in the motor windings pretty deeply.
Deep in the windings is where the heat is the highest.
This is what you need to stay aware of.
Temps at the surface of the windings are going to be a lot less than down inside them.
160C on the surface of the windings is 220-250C deep inside them.

The Nucular controllers are a pretty significant improvement over previous generations of controllers. You will get a great controller with tons of features and options that will make your motors run the best they can. This is a great option for your scooter. Expect that these controllers are going to require additional re-engineering of other aspects of your scooter to accommodate them.
Wouldn't you risk magnet failure at much lower temps then 160 C? From memory the commonly used neoD or ferrite magnets in most bldc motors don't like temps above 130-140 C, more heat can lead to demagnetization. Some motors like the ones from ie Astro have high temp wires and uses more expensive sam-co magnets and those can take more heat. Can't remember what limit they had but I think it was close to 200 C, maybe 180 c?

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 12 2020 7:52pm

macribs wrote:
Jan 12 2020 6:23pm
ElectricGod wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:16pm


What is a safe motor temp?
If you look at typical wire used for winding motors, the common temp values are 160C and 200C.
Thanks to value engineering, it is common that the 200C wire is not used except in high end motors.
Assume that 160C is your maximum motor temp if you can't verify this.
I've run motors well over 200C and they can handle it SHORT term, but expect them to burn out at any moment.
The location of your temp sensor will impact how good it is at measuring motor heat.
You want it buried in the motor windings pretty deeply.
Deep in the windings is where the heat is the highest.
This is what you need to stay aware of.
Temps at the surface of the windings are going to be a lot less than down inside them.
160C on the surface of the windings is 220-250C deep inside them.

The Nucular controllers are a pretty significant improvement over previous generations of controllers. You will get a great controller with tons of features and options that will make your motors run the best they can. This is a great option for your scooter. Expect that these controllers are going to require additional re-engineering of other aspects of your scooter to accommodate them.
Wouldn't you risk magnet failure at much lower temps then 160 C? From memory the commonly used neoD or ferrite magnets in most bldc motors don't like temps above 130-140 C, more heat can lead to demagnetization. Some motors like the ones from ie Astro have high temp wires and uses more expensive sam-co magnets and those can take more heat. Can't remember what limit they had but I think it was close to 200 C, maybe 180 c?
Sorry Vasilli...I had a legit controller question back on page 39 about the 24 fet and got ignored.

You make a good point. And yes...neo's and ceramic magnets are somewhat heat sensitive and can lose magnetic strength. Ceramics are far more sensitive than neodymium. This inrunner was my first motor and I had forced air cooling on it so it could run way over ratings. I didn't notice my blower was not working and the motor melted down. The motor stuttered for a second and I glanced back to see smoke pouring out of it. The temp sensor was mounted on the top of a phase turn where it was doing the least good, but it still read 240C. I had no choice but to walk home the remaining 2 miles. The armature sat inside that oven for who knows how long. When I got home, I took the motor apart and was sure the magnets were toast. I had another of the same motors apart on my desk at the time and checked the magnet strength on both armatures. I could not feel a magnet strength difference. This was pretty much a worst case scenario and the neo magnets were fine. AKA magnet strength was unchanged.

Image
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 13 2020 2:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by larsb » Jan 13 2020 3:00am

Question is what the kV was before and after?

To ”feel” the same strength doesn’t say anything about effect on magnets.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Quokka » Jan 14 2020 8:59am

Vassily, recieved my 24F controlers. They are amazingly small and fit in the same shield as the adaptto's did on my qulbix. Great work.
Am installing them now in place of MAXE adaptto's after a long break from ebiking (cause thay were all dead) and would like to run a similiar variable regen (simple thumb throttle) can this be achieved with the 24F?
Qulbix Q76R+ QS205+MaxE

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