15/18F Silent Controller 36-150V BT-iOS-Android/GPS-$179-199

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by ABritInNY » Aug 29 2016 1:21am

I'm kinda limited by both a) My EEB frame, whose dropouts and Torque arms I have to work with... and b) My general overall lack of skill lol ...Axle production is not my Forte unfortunately...
EEB frame w/ 1500w Leafmotor 4t winding,
3000w Mxus 3T w/upgraded teflon phase wires
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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by NeilP » Aug 29 2016 1:44am

I'd certainly not work with and re use the current torque arms or even replace the old ones with new ones of the same design.

They are not up to the job, otherwise the axle would not have snapped in the first place. Even a small amount of rotational slop of the axle in the torque plate is enough to start the failure . It is not thd torsion that causes the failure, it is the constant, small, turn/stop/reverse turn/stop/turn / stop action of the axle fractionally rotationally accelerating/decelerating within any slop in the torque plate system that starts the failure.
A split clamping torque system is the only way to go.

Any decent metal working workshop would be able to make something, and adjust /work around /adapt the current frame drop outs to suit. Or remove the current drop out from the frame and build a combined drop out clamp that is welded/bolted to the rear triangle
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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 29 2016 9:46am

I suspect that a quality steel axle would not have failed. Some motor axles are well known for failure due to incorrect materials or processing. Torque arms are to protect the frame, not the axle.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Powervelocity.com » Aug 29 2016 2:02pm

I second Neil. From my experience, an axle is most susceptible to braking when there is a play in the dropout. Regular bicycle frames all suffer that and simple regular torque arms don't really solve the issue. This is especially true if you use regen. Overtime, rotational forces will increase the play and eventually will kill both the torque arms and the axle.

This is where pinched design really helps and it's strange that this would happen on an EBB frame that has pretty solid and pinched droupouts. I am thinking unless the axle was indeed of super bad quality, the pinch bolt was not torqued well or maybe went loose. It does make sense to check and re-torque the axle nuts and pinch bolt at least once a month to avoid play in dropouts that would cause these kind of disasters.
ABritInNY wrote:I'm kinda limited by both a) My EEB frame, whose dropouts and Torque arms I have to work with... and b) My general overall lack of skill lol ...Axle production is not my Forte unfortunately...

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by NeilP » Aug 29 2016 2:49pm

I've favoured softer metals for my clamps... Aluminium , 15-20mm wide on each side. The alloy can clamp and also defirm a bit without damaging the axle. To my way of thinking, the thin hard stainless steel 'slip over' totque arms are just plain wrong.
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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 29 2016 3:10pm

Exactly right Neil - years ago Ebikes.ca widened their torque arms to spread out the force to protect the soft steel axles. In their actual testing (who else does that) it was found that thin torque arms cut through the soft steel of some axles. I've had no problems with their torque arms which I've used on all but the Cromotor builds.

Good steel should not behave the way that axle failed. There is a lot of junk steel on the import market, as well as flawed heat treating and poor manufacturing processes. Torque arms should not be blamed for flawed axle failures. Xlyte has at times had problems with axle failures, and if I recall correctly Neil's experience comes from those.

My Cromotor axles are not in torque arms or clamped, and have many thousands of miles with plenty of high torque on them. Just chrome moly steel dropouts and good steel in the axle, and NordLock washers to keep things tight.

I'd check with a mechanical engineer or metallurgist on that axle failure.


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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by ABritInNY » Aug 29 2016 9:43pm

Well the pics show the state of the axle, no twisting at all, just sheared through clean!
I emailed leaf about possible warranty claim for the axle, and get this... He says in over 100,000 sold motors he's NEVER EVER HEARD of an axle EVER failing! Obviously I pointed him in the direction of ES, (instead of calling him out as the dirty lying chinese man he is.)
The axle "might" have weakened from possible play stemming from the reverse torque on my bad setup test (wish I'd have been gentle on the throttle, oh well...) that (I think,) caused my freewheel to backup a bit (reverse thread,) it squeezed the dropout, from that a tiny space developed between the TA and axle and the TA screws somehow reversed a Lil into the gap... the looser TA no longer 1 bolted piece, probably caused the rotational play, and eventual failure on hard regen. This is all speculation, but is based on the observed facts after the event and tear down, and deduction. Any questions, ask away ;)
EEB frame w/ 1500w Leafmotor 4t winding,
3000w Mxus 3T w/upgraded teflon phase wires
Powervelocity 18fet - Lyen 18 fet 4110 ESC's, 24s 30ah prismatic cell Lifepo4 batt w/60a-120a BMS,
20Ah lifepo4 5c cells w/65a- 85a bms
CA V3, Dropper Seat post.
[Fusion 48v AGM (4x 12v 15ah) 1000w nom DD rear hub, 50a max ESC, 21sp FS Genesis overkill 650b conversion]

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 29 2016 10:43pm

Problems start somewhere, this could be the first they've seen.

Good steel stretches and eventually yields. This does not look like that. It looks more like brittle cast iron failing there.

It is common to run a motor in a vise with one end clamped and the other end pointed up in free air, there's only the load of the wheel. That should not overstress the axle, and it is supported on only one end. It sounds like in your case some other things were going on, but still the failure should look twisted and yielded not snapped, I would expect.

Could be there was a major impurity in that piece, or some embrittlement from process problems. Are they casting the axles? I've heard of lower quality steel due to recycling, on one project we had major problems with the copper quality in the Chinese wire, something was not pure and finally we had to supply the wire, they just could not get good stuff in their market supply chain. We also had to supply quality nuts and bolts, their local stuff just wasn't very good. They wound coils without counting the turns accurately, we had to junk a lot of stuff before they understood the turns had to be exact. The level of expertise varies all over the place, and I'm sure they subcontract things out to the lowest bidder who doesn't always understand how to do it correctly, so the prototype is fine but the production is made by someone else.

Anyway, with a motor this power you should not have this level of axle or torque arm problems. It shouldn't be this hard.

Good luck getting a replacement axle, perhaps have one made locally at a machine shop to your specs, perhaps improved over the factory units.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by ABritInNY » Aug 30 2016 12:31am

Thanks for the advice, I'm not even sure how the axle is attached? The video I've watched from the QS factory just show them assembling the press in bearings, I guess I'll have to find out.
It's also a little confusing to me because the leaf rep replied initially to my email and photos that ...
"Subject: Re: Catastrophic Axle failure in leaf 1500w

Need to replace the whole of winding rotor."

So I'm not sure what that entails or even why? Only the axle broke?
Some people seem to have removed the original axle before using it and installed stronger ones, so it must be possible. I'll have to find a machine shop that can handle that for not a ridiculous sum.
A guy on the ES FB page suggested rewelding the broken end piece! That can't possibly be strong enough can it??
EEB frame w/ 1500w Leafmotor 4t winding,
3000w Mxus 3T w/upgraded teflon phase wires
Powervelocity 18fet - Lyen 18 fet 4110 ESC's, 24s 30ah prismatic cell Lifepo4 batt w/60a-120a BMS,
20Ah lifepo4 5c cells w/65a- 85a bms
CA V3, Dropper Seat post.
[Fusion 48v AGM (4x 12v 15ah) 1000w nom DD rear hub, 50a max ESC, 21sp FS Genesis overkill 650b conversion]

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 30 2016 1:01am

I'm not familiar with that motor, but the axles are often pressed in.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by 999zip999 » Aug 30 2016 1:19am

Manufacturer will say it's a 1500 watt motor what wattage are you running at ?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by flat tire » Aug 30 2016 3:47am

Well, I guess I need to hurry up with my welded steel swingarm. :D
Alan B wrote: Good steel stretches and eventually yields. This does not look like that. It looks more like brittle cast iron failing there.
I wouldn't doubt it's steel, the axle is obviously heat treated too and pretty hard. Hardened steel has no problem shearing like that especially if the alloy and hardening aren't done well.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 30 2016 2:54pm

Axles are usually fairly soft steel, that's why thin stainless torque arms cut them. But who knows with this one.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by ABritInNY » Aug 30 2016 3:33pm

The common theme I seem to hear about the axle metals appearance, and from far more knowledgeable people in metallurgy than myself! (Essentially clueless ;p couldn't tell the difference between cast iron, Slag, pig or even sheep and cow iron (4 all I know lol ;)
The consensus however seems to be, that that particular axle has some type of weakness or manufacturing fault in it, that eventually caused it's premature failure. However since leaf won't even listen to a possibility of the failure being a fault, I'm currently stuck between a rock and a hard place where this motor is concerned.
I've since bought a V2 from our friend Vadym, on a 17" MC rim, that I hope to get within a week (perhaps less, fingers X'ed on no shipping delays lol) so I bought a Lil time to deal with the issue. I can't think of anything more irrelevant and useless than a fully working laced hub with a broken axle :(
Also could someone perhaps advise me, as I'm currently on Amazon trying to pick up a shinko 241 tyre and tube (rim strip too.) Will a 300/325 17 TR4 be good or is the 275/300 17 TR4 better for the 3" shinko?
EEB frame w/ 1500w Leafmotor 4t winding,
3000w Mxus 3T w/upgraded teflon phase wires
Powervelocity 18fet - Lyen 18 fet 4110 ESC's, 24s 30ah prismatic cell Lifepo4 batt w/60a-120a BMS,
20Ah lifepo4 5c cells w/65a- 85a bms
CA V3, Dropper Seat post.
[Fusion 48v AGM (4x 12v 15ah) 1000w nom DD rear hub, 50a max ESC, 21sp FS Genesis overkill 650b conversion]

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Powervelocity.com » Aug 31 2016 9:48am

Either tube will work fine. I would go for 2.75-3.00.
Prepare for some sweating putting the tire on the rim. Get some good tools, as bicycle ones you used so far will not cut it.
ABritInNY wrote:The common theme I seem to hear about the axle metals appearance, and from far more knowledgeable people in metallurgy than myself! (Essentially clueless ;p couldn't tell the difference between cast iron, Slag, pig or even sheep and cow iron (4 all I know lol ;)
The consensus however seems to be, that that particular axle has some type of weakness or manufacturing fault in it, that eventually caused it's premature failure. However since leaf won't even listen to a possibility of the failure being a fault, I'm currently stuck between a rock and a hard place where this motor is concerned.
I've since bought a V2 from our friend Vadym, on a 17" MC rim, that I hope to get within a week (perhaps less, fingers X'ed on no shipping delays lol) so I bought a Lil time to deal with the issue. I can't think of anything more irrelevant and useless than a fully working laced hub with a broken axle :(
Also could someone perhaps advise me, as I'm currently on Amazon trying to pick up a shinko 241 tyre and tube (rim strip too.) Will a 300/325 17 TR4 be good or is the 275/300 17 TR4 better for the 3" shinko?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Alan B » Aug 31 2016 9:56am

I got some motorcycle tire irons, and those work but it is still difficult. Lubricant helps.

But the easiest solution I have found thus far is to have a motorcycle shop put the tires on for me. :)

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by fechter » Aug 31 2016 7:09pm

I found it also helps if you put the tire in the sun for a while to heat up the rubber first. Makes it a bit softer.
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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 01 2016 6:28am

Tire lube. Snot.

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by PeeHell » Sep 01 2016 6:03pm

Can any of you compare the throttle reponse of these controllers to a Sabvoton ? I mean, is it more touchy like a Xie Chang square wave controller or smooth like the sabvoton ? Can you control it precisely at low speed ?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Powervelocity.com » Sep 01 2016 6:22pm

You can make it as touchy or as smooth as you like. That's adjustable. Ans yes, low speed is very much controllable.
PeeHell wrote:Can any of you compare the throttle reponse of these controllers to a Sabvoton ? I mean, is it more touchy like a Xie Chang square wave controller or smooth like the sabvoton ? Can you control it precisely at low speed ?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by PeeHell » Sep 01 2016 6:41pm

Can you ajust the speed without the three speed switch ? Like the throttle mid point phase current or something ?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Powervelocity.com » Sep 01 2016 8:45pm

Phase and battery current are adjustable. Use of 3 speed switch is optional - just adds more adjust-ability for both speed and current/power on the go.
PeeHell wrote:Can you ajust the speed without the three speed switch ? Like the throttle mid point phase current or something ?

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Timbecile » Sep 02 2016 1:31pm

Just wanted to add an additional Motor combo that works well! Bafang BPM2 (Code10) matches exactly, phase and hall colors both. Was pleasantly surprised that first attempt was smooth and hassle free. With 21s i'm pushing 40mph (for short bursts as I have no temp sensor yet) Can't wait for the MXUS to arrive so I can really push this controller.

Few questions: Can the bluetooth option be added on after the fact, or is it difficult to add in myself? And is programming compatible with windows only, or will there be an Apple option at some point.
As for 3 speed, do you happen to have the current profile my controller was flashed with when shipped? Having some trouble with 3 speed switch and am curious what it was set with before I go in and try changing things. Is the 3-speed pin order important, i figured regardless how its plugged in it would work but simply cycle through differently based on pin order. Maybe i need to move pins around and try plugging in again.

Heres a pic of it painted black on my Kona stinky, that jagermeister koozie on rack better not get me pulled over :o
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Painted black, battery on back.jpg

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Re: 18F Silent Controller 36-150V VAR.REGEN/BT Progrm/GPS-$1

Post by Simple818 » Sep 02 2016 3:51pm

Question?? Will the old Infineon program cable that you can but from Lyen or Em3ev work with this controller? Or is it totally different?

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