5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by madin88 » May 12 2017 6:45am

circuit wrote:Sorry for answering like I did, bus, basically, short answer is: get a motor with correct RPM/V constant to achieve required speed at given voltage and all your problems will go away: you will be able to use industrial chargers, that are cheaper and of better quality, more options with BMS, DC/DC 12V converters. Also there are some decent 48V motor controllers as well. It will have to handle higher current, but so what? Unless you are aiming for 20kW+, then maybe opt in for 144 or 345V...
About the chargers and DCDC converters you have absolutely right. It is hard to find gadgets with good quality for higher voltages..
However, you should keep in mind that the sweet spot in power density and price of most controllers is around 20s or 72V, so it would make sense go higher.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 03 2017 5:36pm

As I understand - a windows app is needed to configure the BMS and retrieve BMS/battery data? Are you planning a smarphone app?

For example, this one has full configuration and stats available via smartphone

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-sh ... 0.0.unaKL4

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 12:18am

There is an Android app: https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... category=4

That Chinese one is of interesting design... Many optocouplers... I wonder how they are measuring cell voltages and at what accuracy. And whats idle leakage.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 1:51am

That chinese BMS offers almost all functionality I can think of. Of course, reliability and accuracy are unknown.

I installed that android app but It's not obvious to me how can I see what is happening inside the battery: cell group voltages, current state of BMS (charging, balancing...). I don't have tinyBMS (yet) to test. This app seems more like something I can see on CA dashboard and not full BMS & battery status. Am I wrong?

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 1:55am

You are right, it's a dashboard app. In-depth details are not available on android currently.
However communication protocol is quite easy (modbus), so it is quite easy to implement any kind of display, from android to custom LCD with arduino.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 1:58am

circuit wrote:You are right, it's a dashboard app. In-depth details are not available on android currently.
However communication protocol is quite easy (modbus), so it is quite easy to implement any kind of display, from android to custom LCD with arduino.
do you have the protocol spec somewhere?

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 2:01am

Sure, it's available to customers.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 2:15am

circuit wrote:Sure, it's available to customers.
catch 22 :)

Can I see what Info would I be able to get through protocol so I can decide whether I would become a customer? NDA can be agreed upon of course.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 2:19am

All of BMS parameters, that you see on Battery Insider application, are available on modbus. The application is actually using the same open protocol.
We have many customers who have implemented their own custom SCADAs in their industrial environments. And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 2:39am

circuit wrote:All of BMS parameters, that you see on Battery Insider application, are available on modbus. The application is actually using the same open protocol.
We have many customers who have implemented their own custom SCADAs in their industrial environments. And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
I wanted to avoid having to write an android app myself but at least the info is available via protocol. I hope at some point you consider to migrate battery insider to android. Thanks for the info and fast responses.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by Freemann » Sep 04 2017 4:04am

And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
Could you share some info about this? Also looking for such a simple solution for SOC status.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 8:58am

Freemann wrote:
And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
Could you share some info about this? Also looking for such a simple solution for SOC status.
Also I can suggest that some basic info about typical installations is put on your site: right now there are x products to buy but it is not that obvious what are all the parts user actually needs to complete an installation and what are parts used for. Also I think it is good to describe what a part is used for, not just list specs (for example the 75/750A LEM sensor).

Also shopping cart might have a bug: I don't see a way to remove an item from it. Reducing amount to zero does not wok. There is no "remove" option for an item.

My immediate question: the 75/750A LEM sensor is only needed if you need more than 150A, right? Is there some use case which that can be used below 150A ?

Edit: one last question: what will die on the board if main Vbat+ and Vbat- are disconnected before balance leads? What is the worst case scenario damage, would it be covered by warranty and is it fixable by the user who is skilled with smd reflow?

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by Freemann » Sep 04 2017 9:56am

vex_zg wrote:
Freemann wrote:
And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
Could you share some info about this? Also looking for such a simple solution for SOC status.
Also I can suggest that some basic info about typical installations is put on your site: right now there are x products to buy but it is not that obvious what are all the parts user actually needs to complete an installation and what are parts used for. Also I think it is good to describe what a part is used for, not just list specs (for example the 75/750A LEM sensor).

Also shopping cart might have a bug: I don't see a way to remove an item from it. Reducing amount to zero does not wok. There is no "remove" option for an item.

My immediate question: the 75/750A LEM sensor is only needed if you need more than 150A, right? Is there some use case which that can be used below 150A ?

Edit: one last question: what will die on the board if main Vbat+ and Vbat- are disconnected before balance leads? What is the worst case scenario damage, would it be covered by warranty and is it fixable by the user who is skilled with smd reflow?
I'm running my EScooter now for about 7 month with the TinyBMS 150A, KellyController KLSKLS7230S and an 3kW Hub.
All is running very smooth and after some help from Circuit it was very "easy" to get the TinyBMS running. In the past month I installed some firmware updates and thats also very easy to deploy.

I'm also a bit disappointed about the Android/Windows combination to get the the system running and monitored. You need an Windows PC to get the thing running (Kelly controller has a very basic Android App to change thing on the fly, very easy!!), but also need an Windows PC to change settings and(!!) for detailed monitoring of the BMS.
Also not having an option to connect both the serial and BT cable simoultaniously makes it very hard to use the Android and next to the Windows PC app for configuration.
My TinyBMS is deep inside my scooter and it takes me 10-15min. for changing from BT so serial cable.

Besides all this, TinyBMS is a awesome(!!) product and Circuit (energus) is doing a awesome(!!!!!) job with lightning fast support on there products!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I'm loving it!!

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 10:08am

I agree it could be improved. They say there is no limit to perfection... There are many new features on our wishlist and actual TODO list, however note that development is being done in Europe, which is quite expensive. So every new little feature makes it just a bit more expensive product, and we like to keep it as affordable as possible.
Let's be honest: if you don't like windows, there are numerous workarounds, virtual machine for example. It is needed only for configuration and initial debugging, so is not on top of our TODO list.
That said, I am still (secretly) collecting all your wishes and feedback, and adding it on our wishlist and bug list. So if many of you say something need improved, most likely it will be done at some point in future.
However the good news is that newest Battery Insider will support bluetooth connection, you you won't have to do any cable work. Current version already works with most PCs, but there are still a few with weird bluetooth implementations.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 10:43am

circuit wrote:I agree it could be improved. They say there is no limit to perfection... There are many new features on our wishlist and actual TODO list, however note that development is being done in Europe, which is quite expensive. So every new little feature makes it just a bit more expensive product, and we like to keep it as affordable as possible.
Let's be honest: if you don't like windows, there are numerous workarounds, virtual machine for example. It is needed only for configuration and initial debugging, so is not on top of our TODO list.
That said, I am still (secretly) collecting all your wishes and feedback, and adding it on our wishlist and bug list. So if many of you say something need improved, most likely it will be done at some point in future.
However the good news is that newest Battery Insider will support bluetooth connection, you you won't have to do any cable work. Current version already works with most PCs, but there are still a few with weird bluetooth implementations.
Sorry if I sounded a bit too critical, I do think this is the best BMS for ebike on the market. Being an ex developer myself who moved to product management I understand the importance of scope creep and backlog prioritization. In this case I am just an annoying user :)

Q1: If I deduce correctly: the bluetooth is now only used with the dashboard android app and cycle analyst edit: battery insider typically requires wired connection to pc to set up and get all those fancy stats?

Q2:Do you have ETA for bluetooth enabled battery insider?

Q3: are you able to answer what is the worst case scenario if balance leads are connected before main Vbat+ & Vbat- leads? And what is the way out of the damage caused (user fixable, warranty fixable, cost of repair).

My viewpoint is that in 2017 you should prioritize smartphone connectability. We are also doing the same in 3 orders of magnitude more complex systems. There is no way around it, competition is doing it, chinese solutions have it. I am still thinking if I have the time to implement it myself.
Last edited by vex_zg on Sep 04 2017 12:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 04 2017 11:37am

A1: Currently bluetooth works with some pcs, and with some it does not, so we do not advertise it as compatible. Latest v2.5 Battery insider (available today) works on most Windows PCs, but you need administrative rights for pairing.

A2: In a week or two there should be a fully working solution available for download.

A3: Usually nothing happens, but worst case - fried AFE chip (and lots of things around it). It is an unobtanium part and not possible to do a DIY replacement job.
It is easy to see what was the cause and is usually not covered in case of user error. We don't get many returns, maybe 1% or so, but it still happens time to time.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 12:22pm

Thanks for all the quick answers, it is a relief to have connection to a person of significance with the manufacturer, and able to communicate in fluent English.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 04 2017 5:37pm

I have read all I could find about the 150A model on the forum here, and the available specs & schematics, and I have some more questions which I believe are important and not covered yet to the best of my knowledge.

Q4: Can you share more info about max continuous current handling. Somewhere you mentioned BMS can provide 30A when enclosed without sufficient airflow & cooling, and the specs are stating 60A continuous, 150A peak.

Q5: is continuous current handling only a limitation of heat management? What happens when these limits are exceeded?
Q6: what is required to sustain for example 90A, what heatsink capacity or other conditions?
Q7: What about the peak rating of 150A, how long can that be sustained and under what conditions?

Q8: At which continuous current requirement would you recommend to go with external external LEM sensor and relay? Do you have a relay or a solution to recommend when needing more than 60A continous?

Q9: under "safety" in Battery insider there are settings for undervoltage cutoff. Is this per cell or per pack? Is it possible to set undervoltage threshold per cell? Is this undervoltage threshold monitored and how can a particular chemistry be selected?

Q10: under "safety" in battery insider there is a setting for over-heat cutoff. What temeprature sensor(s) are used to trip this? only 2 external sensors? There is a temp sensor onboard too I think I read it somewhere. Is it then if any of these reach the temp cutoff the condition is triggered?

Q11: under cell settings in "battery insider" there are settings for fully charged voltage, charging current, and charged finished current. Can you explain how this works? This might be implying you can just connect an arbitrary power source of higher than max pack voltage and BMS will adjust voltage, current and implement CC/CV algorithm.


(You could consider adding these answers to FAQ or first post/web)

Thanks

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by Freemann » Sep 05 2017 1:03am

Freemann wrote:
And there are also some customers who developed a quick LED display to only show the SOC...
Could you share some info about this? Also looking for such a simple solution for SOC status.
@circuit; ^^ :?: :mrgreen:

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 05 2017 3:41am

I obviously can't disclose what our customers do, however we have a simple solution of our own. It's a 10-LED bar display, dimensions approx 10x30mm.

Also please excuse that I will be unable to answer all of questions in timely manner, as I have other 50 or so emails waiting...

Please feel free to download datasheet, as some answers you will find in there.
You can connect up to two NTC sensors (one placed in center of pack, and one on external perimeter), or you can also connect several parallel sensors that come in our cell modules.

All voltages are adjustable per cell. BMS itself can't control charger's voltage, so it has to be set to required level: Vcell*n_cells
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 05 2017 5:11am

I understand the questions might be overwhelming but if you put the answers in one place it will be easier for you in the future. Digging around hundreds of posts to mine the information is not efficient for customers either.

When you find the time please explain more about current handling capacity or update the datasheet. It is not fully clear now what the actual capacity is, under which conditions and what happens when it's exceeded. Will the BMS protect itself or will it die from overload. It's rated 150A but actual continuous capacity is much less in some conditions. This needs to be made clear.

If it was a 30$ Besttech BMS I'd test the limits myself but the full installation with your BMS is around €400.

Thanks for the effort, I have the stuff in the shopping cart and was about to buy and then I saw this that the rating is actually not 150A continous.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by circuit » Sep 05 2017 6:32am

Full installation is around 200, unless you need many extras up to 750A... An of course there's +VAT for individual buyers within EU.

150A is up to 10sec (as stated in datasheet). BMS does have temperature measurement and will protect itself by disconnecting load. It will also disconnect load/charger if cell temperature limit is reached.
You can get 150A continuous if mosfets are bypassed and external relay/mosfet is connected.
Continuous rating is 60A if mounted on cool metal surface, and 50A in free air. It would be smart to derate it further if you are going to mount it deep without any air convection and no other means of heat transfer.
This is given on datasheet...
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by vex_zg » Sep 05 2017 7:15am

Thanks. Just ordered it. Will try to find time to do the android app. Need wife permission :)

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by Freemann » Sep 05 2017 8:24am

circuit wrote:I obviously can't disclose what our customers do
I totally understand that! But maybe you can point us/me to an blog where this person has his solution described or maybe you could ask the person to describe his solution on this or on you company site/blog?
circuit wrote:however we have a simple solution of our own. It's a 10-LED bar display, dimensions approx 10x30mm.
Where can I find this LED bar? Don't see it in the Energus shop.

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

Post by Chsknight » Sep 11 2017 2:22pm

Does this BMS allow the use of a latching switch to control on/off state?

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