5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/750A rated

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 21 2016 8:07am

Nice to see orders rollin' in. Dispatched 5 pcs today, 4 more will be dispatched in the evening.
Image

There are few more remaining.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by dougcullen » Apr 21 2016 11:22am

Hi Circuit - I'm planning on buying a kit from ebikes.ca, this could be used with the cycle analyst OR a smartphone right ?
How much stock do you have left right now, i would pick one up from you. Thanks !

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 21 2016 11:29am

I'm not sure about seriousness of all the reservations (that will actually be paid), but I would say we have 15 pcs of 150A and 6 pcs. of 30A model.

The BMS support CAv3 protocol, which means it can send data to Android apps, that are designed to accept data from CAv3. Links to these 3rd party apps are a few posts up.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by madin88 » Apr 21 2016 12:08pm

would the 30A board feature the wakeup/ignition signal input (a keyswitch for instance) in combination with capacitor precharge, or is this only something the 150A board can do?

referring to this:
circuit wrote: This all gives the ability to:
- speed input: measure speed and predict remaining operating time or distance
- control the contactors (24V and 12V as well, thanks to PWM/DAC!)
- do capacitor precharge
- wakeup/ignition signal input
- drive of mechanical SOC gauge
- drive of motor controller's "enable" input, so no need for large, heavy and expensive contactor in many cases (up to 600A at the moment, limited only by current sensor)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 21 2016 12:58pm

30A has no inputs at the moment, so no ignition/enable.
It does support a precharge in hardware, however it is not yet implemented in software. The feature will be available with future firmware releases.
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Re: Recommendation for a BMS

Post by circuit » Apr 21 2016 2:23pm

What do you think about this one?
https://www.energusps.com/shop
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Re: Source for BMS

Post by circuit » Apr 28 2016 6:43am

What about this.
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... 516-30a-16
There is also 150A model avaiable, also addons, like fluetooth or temp sensors.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 28 2016 8:22am

I just received the new BMS - looks good! I wanted to connect it up for first tests but I am missing a manual. Is there any documentation available? Otherwise, are there any do's and dont's? for instance: in what sequence the battery / cells have to be connected / disconnected? does communication start without any battery / cells?
r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 28 2016 8:36am

Wow, did not expect it to arrive this quickly. We are still working hard on the manual and will let everyone know as soon as it is available.
Meanwhile I'll try my best to support per Q-A basis.

DON'Ts
Do not randomly connect battery side. Basically there is one, but very important rule:
Never, under any circumstance, cell wires can be (left) connected while main power (thick B+ and B-) are not connected.
When connecting, B+ and B- should be connected first.
When disconnecting, B+ and B- should be disconnected last.

Also, safety warning: USB cable is not galvanically isolated. When connecting BMS to your PC, make sure the charger or anything else operating from AC is not connected to BMS or anything else that is directly or indirectly connected to BMS/battery/bike. Unless you know what you are doing, then it is fine. But often people don't or simply forget.

The sequence goes like this:
1. First take the balancing cable kit and hook it up to the battery, but DO NOT connect to BMS. Cells should be connected to upper channels of BMS, like this:
Image
2. Connect B- and B+ to the BMS. Make sure these wires are thick enough and contain no fuses, fusible links or connectors. It is highly recommended to solder it down. All of fusing should be done after BMS (between BMS and load, charger). When B- and B+ is connected, BMS will boot up (may beep several times).
3. Only after B- and B+ is connected, connect balancing wires. Now BMS will see all cell voltages.
4. If you have purchased temperature sensors, connect them.
5. Connect USB, launch this app: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/682 ... .4.05k.exe
Configure as you wish.

Now, sometimes, when B+ and B- is connected, BMS could go to deep sleep mode. This is designed to preserve the battery if problems are detected. To wake it up, just connect the charger (it should be set at correct voltage for your cells).

Please let me know if there are any questions.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 28 2016 9:03am

To do a first test for a USB / BT communication is it ok to connect a power supply to B+ / B-? what is the V_min ? will the BMS boot without any cell connected? As I understand the chip can not be supplied via USB - thus it's always required to supply via B+ / B- ? or could it be C+ / C- ?
r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 28 2016 9:12am

Yes, you can only connect B+/B- to power it up, minimum voltage is 8V. Charger can be used as a workaround, if connected to B+/B- (not via dedicated charging contacts).
Just note that in some cases it will not boot up, it will need to see a charger connected. As a workaround, you can use a multimeter in buzzer mode. Connect positive to B- and negative to CH-. The BMS will see it as charger connection and will wake up.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 29 2016 6:27am

Over a short lunch break I quickly connected the BMS to my notebook (battery powered) and launched 'Battery Insider'. I powered the BMS with a lab power supply at 8 V: the on board yellow LED briefly blinked, 10 rapid clicks and after a short break another single click were audible. I connected the USB cable (the Junsi driver was loaded) and the software immediately connected to the BMS. It reported an Under-Voltage Cutoff Event since I have not connected any cell. Other Data displayed e.g.: V_pack = 7.63 V, T_onboard = 24.9 °C, I_pack = (noise) A
So it seems to work!
I than connected the BT adapter instead of the USB, however, I could find the BMS neither on the notebook nor on the smartphone - I probably missed something in setting it up properly?
r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 29 2016 6:53am

Nice to hear it worked straight out of box!

The bluetooth requires onboard 5V output, which is disabled in fault condition (no cells).
When 5V is available, bluetooth will be visible as "BMS". Pairing code is written on the BT module.

Also 8V is the lower limit, BMS operates in range of 8 to 75V, so feel free to connect it to 20 or 50V to make sure it is stable.
By the way this version of Battery Insider will not communicate via bluetooth module, it is only for android at the moment. But we are working on that, most likely the next release of firmware/software will have this feature.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 29 2016 11:01am

Does it matter in what sequence the cells are connected to the BMS; or, if more than 8 cells, the two connectors: higher or lower voltage cells in the stack first? r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 29 2016 11:14am

The connectors should be wired to cells first, then I highly recommend to measure voltages on the connector to make sure everything in order.
After that, there is no real difference how these connectors are connected to BMS (except that B+ and B- must be already connected).
But I can still recommend to start connecting from top (channel 16), or first connect upper connector, then lower.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 29 2016 4:01pm

Finally I connected a 10s battery. I was careful not to have any of the cell wires unconnected, double checked all voltages. I was afraid that the BMS might be damaged if one of the cells would remain open?! I powered up the BMS with the battery pack, watched and logged the measurements with the software - all seems to work smoothly, so far I am very pleased with this unit!
I used an unbalanced pack as I wanted to see how the balancing performs. I was a bit surprised that I couldn't see anything - I could not tell if the BMS was balancing or not, nor could I set anything besides the starting voltage for bleeding. Probably I have not yet found the right settings but I'd expect more feedback and more adjustment possibilities for the bleeding of the pack. I'd be interested to learn about the implemented bleeding strategy.
r
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 30 2016 2:35am

Balancing is performed when charging. Your pack is seriously out of balance and it will take some time.
The BMS supports "early balancing", which mean it will balance not just at end of charge.
There is a setting called "Early Balancing Threshold" in Cell Settings tab. This value specifies voltage level above which balancing is performed (when charging). For Li-ion/LiPo 3.3-3.5V is fine, for LiFePO4 also around 3.4V is usually ok. Also check all other parameters on this tab.
Note that current version of BatteryInsider does not display this balancing process. Next release will have the feature.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 30 2016 3:27am

thx for the feedback!
What is the balancing strategy? I understand that bleeding is enabled when I_bat is 'charging' AND the lowest cell is below the set V_min_cell_bleed AND the voltage difference between the lowest and the highest cell exceeds the set V_max_cell_diff, correct? When does bleeding stop? hysteresis?
I prefer to do 'top balancing' that is, make sure all series cells reach their 'knee voltage' at approx. the same time during charging. This requires either communication with the charger to moderate the charging current above the 'knee voltage' or that the BMS stops charging via its charging FET as soon as the first cell reaches V_max_cell_charge. Bleeding should remain enabled until this cell is lowered below V_max_cell_diff and charging should restart when this highest cell voltage falls below (V_max_cell_charge - V_hyst_cell_charge).
In this strategy it is probably necessary to distinguish between several max. cell voltages: when BMS stops charging, BMS triggers alarm (and freezes?), BMS blows a charging fuse (in case FET is damaged), ...
It would be nice to have the option to bleed not only during charging but also during idling (I presume the BMS distinguishes the three states 'charge', 'discharge' and 'idle' by measuring I-bat and I'd wish that the respective current thresholds could be set?). It would be useful to know the state engine of this BMS...
r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 30 2016 3:37am

We plan to include an option for idle balancing in future, probably will be available after couple releases.
Balancing strategy is as you describe and it all goes like this:
1. charger is detected and checks are performed if charging is allowed.
2. If charging is enabled (fet/contactor switched on), balancing begins when at least one cell reaches "Early Balancing Threshold".
3. If one or more of cells reaches "fully charged voltage", charging is switched off, but balancing continues (also status remains "charging").
4. There is a timeout and hysteresis to switch charged back on. It cycles on and off until all cells are brought to balance.
5. Charging is considered finished when all cells are within "fully charged voltage" minus "allowed disbalance", and when current tapers off below "charging finished current".
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 30 2016 8:49am

circuit wrote:We plan to include an option for idle balancing in future, probably will be available after couple releases.
Balancing strategy is as you describe and it all goes like this:
1. charger is detected and checks are performed if charging is allowed.
2. If charging is enabled (fet/contactor switched on), balancing begins when at least one cell reaches "Early Balancing Threshold".
3. If one or more of cells reaches "fully charged voltage", charging is switched off, but balancing continues (also status remains "charging").
4. There is a timeout and hysteresis to switch charged back on. It cycles on and off until all cells are brought to balance.
5. Charging is considered finished when all cells are within "fully charged voltage" minus "allowed disbalance", and when current tapers off below "charging finished current".
Thx, almost clear...
1. ... "charger is detetected" does this require a certain voltage being applied between V_chg+ and V_chg- ? I have battery chargers which switch their output on only when they 'see' an external voltage at the output connector (= 'see' a partly charged battery).
2. ... "balancing begins when at least one cell reaches 'Early Balancing Threshold' " AND at least one cell's voltage is below the "allowed disbalance" gap from the highest cell voltage, correct ?
3. ...
4. ..."There is a timeout and hysteresis to switch charged back on" Does that mean charging restarts a certain delay after the moment the first cell has reached V_fully_charged AND as soon as the highest cell voltage drops below V_fully_charged minus V_hysteresis ? Thus the time to restart is determined by the slower of the two processes, the timeout timer and the cell bleeding, correct ? For high capacity cells i.e. slow bleeding (what is the bleeding current? can the timeout be set?), balance charging is thus governed by the bleeding? or is it not an AND but an OR relation ?
5. Charging is not allowed (as part of checks in point 1) if all cell voltages are between V_fully_charged and (V_fully_charged - V_allowed_disbalance) AND I_bat < I_charging_finished, correct ? Not all my chargers do have a CC CV characteristic and some have CV set to higher than pack voltages, that is they do not taper off the current at the correct pack voltage. Does that mean the BMS allows charging (FET ON) even though the pack is full?

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 30 2016 11:12am

1. Charger is detected if voltage is higher than battery.
2. Correct
4. Your charger must be set at exactly correct voltage for optimal results. But in your case, if any of cells will rise "Fully Charged Voltage", charger will be switched off, and switched back on only after highest cell drops down a little. In time, cells will drop less and less when charger is disabled and eventually charging will be finished. I mean both balance and current are measured even when charger if disconnected.
So it will work well even with charger voltage being higher than fully charged battery.

Is there a larger problem you are solving? Some very detailed questions here, usually people don't care as much.
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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by rolf_w » Apr 30 2016 11:54am

circuit wrote:Is there a larger problem you are solving? Some very detailed questions here, usually people don't care as much.
As explained before I'll use this BMS in a special setup: in a remote solar powered water pump. The existing solar charger has no charging recipe for the existing LiFePO4 16s 100Ah battery (its default setting is Pb battery). I will try to tweak it but I need to be sure that the BMS guaranties that no overcharge can occur, otherwise the battery might end up in flames... r

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Re: 5-16S Smart Tiny BMS preorder - 30/150/600A rated

Post by circuit » Apr 30 2016 12:55pm

One of main rules of this BMS is to switch off the charger if any of cells hits over "Fully Charged Voltage", so it will not overcharge. Just keep in mind that max voltage is 75V, so your charger should not output more than that.
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Re: The best li ion 18650 for a Vectrix motocycle

Post by circuit » May 02 2016 12:44am

Consider using one of these:
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... 0ah-10c-25
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... 6v-78ah-12

These offer a rapid construction of battery pack and include the most modern safety: fuses on each cell, vent channels, air channels for heating/cooling.
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Re: The best li ion 18650 for a Vectrix motocycle

Post by mistercrash » May 02 2016 9:07am

circuit wrote:Consider using one of these:
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... 0ah-10c-25
https://www.energusps.com/shop/product/ ... 6v-78ah-12

These offer a rapid construction of battery pack and include the most modern safety: fuses on each cell, vent channels, air channels for heating/cooling.
THAT is a very sexy system! I recognize a few of the best ideas I saw in Endless-Sphere and elsewhere in those modules. Beautifully executed. :)
Here's the ''buts''.
But I wish we could choose the cells to use.
But I wish the modules were serviceable. Maybe they are and it is intentional not to show it, but I don't see how the modules can be taken apart without breaking them, to change a cell, or replace fuses.
But I wish they were half the price. Maybe not now, but in a near future?

But despite all that, they are very nice, something I have been looking for for the past five years. The 30P modules would be perfect for the OP's Vectrix and so many other EV DIYers.
Send $10 at paypal.me/Ray1964 and you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

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