KMX Trike Front Suspension

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calfeetwenty   10 mW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by calfeetwenty » Mar 26 2018 8:17am

rowbiker wrote:
Mar 23 2018 8:34am
calfeetwenty wrote:
Mar 20 2018 7:16am
I bought a frame kit 6 months age and started putting it together Sunday.
May I ask where you got the KMX kit? Utah Trikes or directly from Asia? Adam recommends Utah, which is probably the safer route. If ordering "the kit", does one specify the model, or are they all the same at the kit level?
I got it from Utah Trikes. I should have waited they are cheaper now. http://www.utahtrikes.com/PROD-11615984.html

This is what you get.

KMX Steel Frame
Complete seat with all hardware
All steering parts
XL Boom w/Derailleur post
Idler and chain tube assembly
20-inch front wheels with double-wall rims
All frame hardware

My kit also had the chain included.

I have decided that I have to lengthen the frame so this build is going to be a little slower than some of the bicycles I have done.
Electra 7D/BBSHD, 24 spd hybrid drive 52 volt.
Electra 7D Fat/Mxus 3000 Turbo, 72 volt.
Paratrooper Pro/BBS02/Alfine 8, 52 volt
KMX Trike TDCM/Phaserunner 52 volt
Luna Cargo/ QS 205/50 6T back at it
Vector Typhoon…..soon

rowbiker   10 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by rowbiker » Mar 26 2018 10:27am

calfeetwenty -thanks for the info; keep us updated as your build progresses!

Are you also thinking of modifying the rear dropout width, as well as lengthening the frame?

calfeetwenty   10 mW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by calfeetwenty » Mar 27 2018 7:38am

rowbiker wrote:
Mar 26 2018 10:27am
calfeetwenty -thanks for the info; keep us updated as your build progresses!

Are you also thinking of modifying the rear dropout width, as well as lengthening the frame?
Probably, I had the same idea as Adam33 but I don't have access to the machinery he has but I think I could weld up a set that will bolt on.

My legs are so long that the boom is out to the maximum and the seat is pretty much back all the way. I need a little more room under the seat and slide the boom in a couple of inches.
Electra 7D/BBSHD, 24 spd hybrid drive 52 volt.
Electra 7D Fat/Mxus 3000 Turbo, 72 volt.
Paratrooper Pro/BBS02/Alfine 8, 52 volt
KMX Trike TDCM/Phaserunner 52 volt
Luna Cargo/ QS 205/50 6T back at it
Vector Typhoon…..soon

calfeetwenty   10 mW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by calfeetwenty » Apr 20 2018 5:38pm

So where should I put a build thread?

I have used endless sphere for gathering info but I am a newbie here when it comes to posting. I have fixed up my Flickr account so I can post some photos. I have the trike maybe half done.


The Suspension came in yesterday. That is one great example of modern machine work. A friend "Green works" talked me into setting up the trike without the suspension so I can do a proper comparison...……….later calfee
Electra 7D/BBSHD, 24 spd hybrid drive 52 volt.
Electra 7D Fat/Mxus 3000 Turbo, 72 volt.
Paratrooper Pro/BBS02/Alfine 8, 52 volt
KMX Trike TDCM/Phaserunner 52 volt
Luna Cargo/ QS 205/50 6T back at it
Vector Typhoon…..soon

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Apr 21 2018 1:15am

calfeetwenty wrote:
Apr 20 2018 5:38pm
So where should I put a build thread?
The best for a build thread is in : Electric Bicycles - E-Bike Photos & Video

It's a good idea to test it without the suspension first if it is a brand new bike.

Looking forward to see your build thread.

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Jun 06 2018 10:02am

I am currently testing my rear suspension on my trike and the ride is a lot more comfortable than what I expected!

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It's more work to install compared to the front suspension but the improvement is so significant that some KMX owner could be interested in it.

I cannot test it with a functional chain though, but according to the drawing, it should work:

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This is where I would need help to test it and here is my proposal:

I will give you a rear KMX suspension kit ( free, including shipping )

In return, you will have to install it on your trike within 2 or 3 weeks and test the functionality while giving me your feedbacks.

You need to be confident in your hand skills and have a few basic tools see the procedure here
There is obviously a certain risk as the frame need to be cut and drilled. ( there is no financial compensation if something go wrong )

You also need to have an adult KMX trike with a steel frame that have either: no motor, a hub motor or a Mid drive motor kit installed at the front of the trike ( basically, the motor cannot be between the seat and the rear wheel )

Let me know by pm if you are interested.
Edit: I got two proposal for this kit and the rear suspension is being tested already.
Last edited by adam333 on Jul 22 2018 10:32pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Toecutter   1 kW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by The Toecutter » Jun 12 2018 2:26pm

How much does this prototype rear suspension extend the wheelbase, if at all?

Any idea with regard to how much vertical travel you expect the rear wheel's axle line to have?

How about added weight?

Any idea on the expected cost?

I don't yet know if I am interested in trying it just yet. It means I would have to remove my body shell and re-design it to accommodate this change. It looks awesome.
Last edited by The Toecutter on Jun 12 2018 2:30pm, edited 1 time in total.

PRW   10 kW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by PRW » Jun 12 2018 2:30pm

see his attached drawing - 70mm, unless you cut 70mm off

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The Toecutter   1 kW

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by The Toecutter » Jun 12 2018 2:32pm

I see it now. The link didn't work the first time I clicked on it. Thanks.

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Jun 13 2018 7:52pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 12 2018 2:26pm
How much does this prototype rear suspension extend the wheelbase, if at all?
Update!:
It does add 70 mm!!! This space is actually required to allow the rear end swinging up and down without hitting the back seat.
The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 12 2018 2:26pm
Any idea with regard to how much vertical travel you expect the rear wheel's axle line to have?
I am not sure yet. On my drawing, the shock allow it to travel from -12mm to + 250mm ( -0.5" to + 9.5" ) I will make a video soon, and I should be able to evaluate the real travel.
The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 12 2018 2:26pm
How about added weight?
The rear kit add 2.240 kg ( regular shock )
The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 12 2018 2:26pm
Any idea on the expected cost?
It will most likely be around 450 to 500$ ish
The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 12 2018 2:26pm
I don't yet know if I am interested in trying it just yet. It means I would have to remove my body shell and re-design it to accommodate this change. It looks awesome.
Thanks for the kind words :D
Agreed, the rear suspension is more limitative due to the fact that we usually put "stuff" in that particular area.

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SprocketLocket   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by SprocketLocket » Jun 28 2018 8:39am

I think a SUSPENSION SEAT would be more practical, and allow the traditional use of that space for "stuff".

As an e-Fatbike hardtail owner, I can say a front suspension with a quality suspension seatpost and hardtail solves a lot of problems, without creating many new ones. Front Suspension + Hardtail + Suspension Seat is a formula that works, and could be translated to trikes & tadpoles.

I've been following this thread & product with interest, which has partly helped me decide to go with a trike (no purchase yet). Mainly, I got tired of falling over while stopped, stopping, turning around, and also my bike falling over while I was off of it. Got tired of tall standover, stepping over my top bar due to storage, being up high, and ergonomics that put stress on my hands/wrists and butt/perineum, even after extensive mitigations.

This is as good a place as any to share my ideas for a KMX or tadpole SUSPENSION SEAT. If someone goes into business from one of these ideas, I'd ask that at least, you'd give me one for free. I've put a lot of thought into this. I'm creative, but not that handy.

-VERTICAL SUSPENSION SEAT MOUNT
The KMX steel frame line uses a bracket to bolt a tubular seat frame directly to the rectangular frame tubing. You could have a device in the middle (it bolts to the frame, and seat frame bolts to it) that has a shock absorber system which allows for vertical travel. Similar to the optional Benz Sprinter van suspension seat (which are fantastic, btw). The Sprinter suspension seats also have a knob you can twist to make the suspension softer or firmer, depending on weight and preference. This would raise the seat height a little.

-REAR SHOCK SEAT
This would be a seat mount where the front of the seat is attached to a horizontal BAR, and the front swivels or tilts from that bar. The rear of the seat would be mounted to SPRINGS or SHOCKS (say, one on the left rear and one on the right rear; or maybe just one central shock absorber behind the seat). So, the seat would tilt back & down, swiveling from the nose of the seat. Since the shock absorbers would be in the back of the seat, it would primarily absorb jolts from the REAR wheel--and it would make a good complement to adam333's front suspension system! This concept is so simple, I could almost even do it.
This concept could also work on the KMX Koyote (folding, aluminum-frame) model, which uses more traditional tubular bar and mesh design for the seat (Koyote design seems to be "inspired by" the Catrike Villager--which isn't a bad thing, in my opinion). I'm strongly konsidering the Koyote because:
1) it's the tadpole which seems to have the most opportunity for easily making a flat "floor" and underseat storage (such as: wire grates like oven or refrigerator racks, or simply wood), and
2) Koyote is probably compatible with adam333's front suspension system [ADAM COULD YOU CONFIRM?]. I actually dis-like that it's made of aluminum, and the folding mechanism worries me (for strength), though it could be convenient. The design, while not as robust as the steel non-folders, still seems stronger than a Catrike, and has more potential for storage than either. (And neither the steel KMX nor Catrike Villager fold, FWIW.) My motor ideas would be like 72V with a Mac 10T, or maybe (less likely) one of the popular "35mm stator" DD (à la "Leaf motor 1500W", etc). Not necessarily crazy hard riding, but faster cruising.

So with the Koyote, it would be relatively easy to mount a swivel bar across the top-front of the seat tubes, and mount a suspension system in the back to the frame, or to the rear seat tubes. You would need a 3rd-party seat that sat inside their seat frame.

-BUNGEE/SHOCK CORD SEAT
After lots of thinking, I came to the conclusion that with the kmx Koyote, the easiest type of suspension seat that I could do myself, would be using elastic rope.

1) SUPPORTING THE MESH SEAT WITH BUNGEE CORD
-For Koyote: you could criss-cross (or some other pattern) shock-cord material between the seat-bottom tubes, and even the seatback, and place the mesh back on top of it. I've heard the Koyote mesh fasteners loosen after awhile, so that could also help as a support backup.
-For KMX steel frames: that tube seat frame seems pretty small, but maybe it's possible to suspend elastic between the seat frame, and somehow suspend a seating surface? I don't have one. Or, maybe a completely new/3rd-party tubular seat frame could be fitted, using this concept. Somehow, I'm sure it could be done, and much less elaborately than a rear suspension. Even a completely new, commercial upgrade seat could be easily made to mount to KMX's steel frame. And a totally new seat would still probably be less expensive, and certainly easier to implement, than rear suspension.

2) SUSPEND A SEAT FROM WITHIN THE FRAME
-For Koyote: use shock cord/bungee material to suspend a camp chair from between the Koyote seat tubes (in my mind, the Koyote is easier to come up with ideas--far more attachment points).

Basically, we are trying to adapt the concept of a bike "suspension seatpost" to a trike/tadpole design. Also, some of the above ideas, commercially or just DIY, could work on other trikes.

I have a $20 Schwinn cruiser spring seat (large springs that actually do something), and originally tried to come up with ideas of how I could cannibalize that seat--or maybe 2 of them--to a KMX design. After thinking about it a lot, I eventually had the suspension shock cord/bungee rope revelation.
Even before that, I first wondered how you could use 1 or 2 cheap suspension seatposts, but I realized suspension seatposts probably require too much height. Though, if you did a tilt-back/front-swivel design, you could use them as replacement "seatback support tubes"(?).

ADDENDUM: REAR SUSPENSION ON THE KOYOTE?
Adam's latest contraption got me thinking!
The Koyote ALREADY has a "cut" frame, since it has a folding design. No cutting! No "point of no return"! :) And while aluminum, that "cut frame" is already reinforced at that junction, and designed to be separated.
Might a bolt-on, adam333-style rear suspension be more easily adapted by novices to the Koyote's folding frame? Or does the aluminum frame automatically disqualify it? Adam, what do you think?

I hope this inspires, as I've certainly been inspired.
Adam's and EvolutionGTS/Electric Racing Technologies' designs have certainly been inspiring. I found Adam's designs through EvolutionGTS's "10KW Death Trike".

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Jul 01 2018 10:19am

SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
I think a SUSPENSION SEAT would be more practical, and allow the traditional use of that space for "stuff".

...This would raise the seat height a little.
This is an idea that I pondered for a good while. The main reason It stopped me was the seat height raising issue.
I had to raise the seat by 3/4" to accommodate the battery pack and it already feel less stable while cornering.
Keeping the center of gravity low is important on this trike.
SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
-REAR SHOCK SEAT
The rear of the seat would be mounted to SPRINGS or SHOCKS
This one should work in theory, it would have to be tested.
SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
2) Koyote is probably compatible with adam333's front suspension system [ADAM COULD YOU CONFIRM?].
KMX redesigned the spindle and it was done in 2016 for the 2017 model year. ( K90 Annihilator, Koyote, Kolt...)
Spindle went from:
old spindle
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to:
2017 spindle
Image

I had to redesigned the mounting bracket as it was no longer compatible:
( Great thanks to Colin's help! Functionality will be validated soon )
Image
SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
-BUNGEE/SHOCK CORD SEAT
After lots of thinking, I came to the conclusion that with the kmx Koyote, the easiest type of suspension seat that I could do myself, would be using elastic rope.
This one could be challenging to accommodate different weight user no?
SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
Adam's latest contraption got me thinking!
The Koyote ALREADY has a "cut" frame, since it has a folding design. No cutting! No "point of no return"! :) And while aluminum, that "cut frame" is already reinforced at that junction, and designed to be separated.
Might a bolt-on, adam333-style rear suspension be more easily adapted by novices to the Koyote's folding frame? Or does the aluminum frame automatically disqualify it? Adam, what do you think?
You have a good point there... I initially discarded the possibility of the Koyote to have a rear suspension kit, but yes, there is 4 nice anchor points that could be used to bolt it there ( it would have to be designed for that trike ).
Since we don't cut or weld the aluminum, the strength should not be an issue.
SprocketLocket wrote:
Jun 28 2018 8:39am
I hope this inspires, as I've certainly been inspired.
Adam's and EvolutionGTS/Electric Racing Technologies' designs have certainly been inspiring. I found Adam's designs through EvolutionGTS's "10KW Death Trike".
Thanks for the suggestions, its is appreciate and yes, your ideas indeed inspired me.

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Nov 17 2018 8:46pm

For those who purchased a Front suspension kit and would like to add fenders to their trike, feel free to send me a PM or post here with your trike config:

1- Tire dimensions : ( example: 20 x 1.5, 20 x 2.3, 16 x 2.125, 16 x 2.5 .... etc )
2- Disc brake rotor size : ( example : 160mm, 180mm, 200mm )

I will start with the most popular size for now as the mold is quite expensive to manufacture.

Here is a few pics of the ABS Front fenders glossy finish 2.5mm thick I've made for my trike ( 16 x 3.0 with 160mm Disc brake rotor )
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SprocketLocket   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by SprocketLocket » Nov 28 2018 5:42pm

Clarifying my "elastic rope seat": I found that "bungee chairs" already exist. I wonder if it would be possible to separate the business end from the legs, and tie one of these to the frame of a Koyote?
BTW, my 'bungee chair' camp chair idea was like maybe fitting (something like this) the seat frame:
https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/ ... 1042448198
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https://www.sears.com/gps-outfitters-4- ... 683913000P
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http://shop.impactcanopy.com/sunrise-bu ... -460040002
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XVZM3KB/
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074QP1P48/
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Not good for pedaling, would lose energy. But many of us don't pedal much. Or, perhaps stiffening/reinforcement to lower energy loss. Might be an alternative to (or addition to) rear suspension. I can't pedal much anyway, due to knee problems (caused by bicycling). I gave up cycling for years, I thought forever, until e-bikes came along. This is one of many reasons why banning throttles is so wrong. For me, even fairly brief periods of "fake pedaling" cause knee pain. Plus, many elderly or infirm who might be able to get around on throtle bikes, could not do so with just PAS. Using pre-crime as legal theory for e-bikes makes for a bad power monopoly/control system (aka govt).

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adam333   100 W

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Re: KMX Trike Front Suspension

Post by adam333 » Nov 28 2018 9:32pm

I guess they could work, as long they don't "sag" too much when we hit a big bump.

This is an idea to be tested...

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