New BMS model

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New BMS model

Post by Inwo » Dec 13, 2016 12:57 pm

In stock USA.
I have been working with the designer of the new BMS-24
Testing a couple beta units for the last few weeks. Bugs have been fixed.
Getting a few production models in today.
Price is high, but they are the best designed (or only) 24s monitor/balancer I've seen.
1.2 amps balance current.

$250 each delivered from USA to USA priority mail.
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm

Looks potentially neat. What's idle/sleep current draw like? Does it draw it's power asymmetrically from the cells or across the whole string?

For people using cells that aren't garbage, do you think they would make a say ~20mA balance current model?
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Rube » Dec 14, 2016 7:15 am

Looks good. Specs indicate 2 ~ 24s, does that mean it accepts a pack smaller than 24s?

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 01, 2017 2:45 pm

Counts cell number when first powered. Works 2-24s.
The 1.2 amps is pulsed.
Now stocking LTO 2.3v model.


8.
Minimize the power consumption by draw current from all cells or external power supply.
9.
Dual power design, the unit can be powered by all cells or external power supply.
10.
Detect cell count at any time, and compare with the count detected when switch on first time. If it is not
uniformity, the device will alarm and cutoff charge or discharge according to users’ setup, the feature can
prevent any cell connection from loosing.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 01, 2017 2:51 pm

small-leaf-bms-24.jpg
Custom harness available for 12s, 18s, or 24s Volt batteries.
Also interface to DQ lithium chargers.

See leaf connection by customer.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 08, 2017 6:17 pm

Initial stages of testing remote display option. Rather than redesign, I plan to use common DB-25 cable up to 12'.
All it needs is 22p FPC adapters on each end. Then lcd can be remote from electronics.
Originally made FPC to RJ-45s boards which seem to work ok. A single printer cable seems neater and is shielded.
Should have boards in a couple weeks.


Shown on bottom picture is RJ-45 board and dummy DB-25.
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 08, 2017 6:27 pm

Picture of hardwired test version soldered into the RJ pads.
And a couple 36v LTO. Just because they were there. :D

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by liveforphysics » Jan 08, 2017 6:53 pm

Can you measure it's sleep-mode idle current?
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 08, 2017 7:22 pm

Yes, I will.
I've been doing this.
My buddy plans carbon fiber glove box cover for his Gem car.
Better than pink?

Leds show B+ output to relay coils.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 08, 2017 8:13 pm

Took a while. Made a cable for a 12s Li-Ion battery.
30ma when fist turned on. Includes lcd display.
Meter connected in B- leg.
Started balancing and average current went up to 100ma.
Put it in program mode to turn balance settings off and lcd time to minimum 1 minute.
Back to run and 30ma.
Lcd timed out and standby current is 8ma.

This of course is with no current drawing accessories. I connect two leds to relay outputs. One driving open collector NPN to DQ charge inhibit. Set them about 10 to 15 ma each. Could be less I'm sure. Shown in picture above.
Temp. sensors were connected. No shunt, alarm led, or buzzer connected for test.

That's about it! :D

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by liveforphysics » Jan 09, 2017 12:39 am

8mA sleep current will drain a bit over 5Ah a month, so leaving it on a small pack over winter would likely make it a battery murdering system vs management system for batteries not frequently charged.
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 09, 2017 12:50 am

It can be turned off when not in use.
It can be powered by external source. Switchable from battery power to external source.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by amberwolf » Jan 09, 2017 2:31 am

How much pack power does it draw when off?

How much pack power does it draw when connected to external source? (not the external source power)

Just to be safe, I woudn't assume zero, but test that, too. ;)

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 09, 2017 12:50 pm

When switched to ext power. Essentially off, as it's not powered it draws .7ma on B- lead from12s pack.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Jan 09, 2017 12:59 pm

I'm not a small pack guy. Even my scooters have 10 ah packs.
Seems that any one using small packs would reduce pack voltage and unplug when in storage.
I've been leaving lcd on all the time on my cars to watch balancing.
Even though it has 1.2 amp max balance current, it takes days to balance a 120ah pack. High thermal resistance from internal heat sink and temperature limit slows the process to a crawl.
Original program wasn't as conservative on temp. rise. I may use a fan if I want to speed it up.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by emiyata » Jan 14, 2017 12:03 am

Ebikes use 10ah batteries and bigger. Very few use a $250 bms on a 5ah-10ah pack. This would be a great fit for the 20-40 ah batteries. This bms is mounted outside the battery pack with connectors, so you can just unplug the bms for the winter with no current draw.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by johnnyz » Feb 02, 2017 1:11 pm

On a typical Li-Ion 24s pack like mine, using 24s x 8p panasonic 18650pf cells, a 1.2 amp balancing current should balance this pack in quite short order, just wondering about the heat generated and or dissipated during the process..


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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Feb 02, 2017 6:30 pm

Rate is controlled by internal temperature. 1.2 amps is peak.
Bms is barely warm to touch. If speed balance is important case needs to be cooled.
Yet over night it can balance a grossly unbalanced 120ah 24s pack.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by johnnyz » Feb 14, 2017 12:00 pm

Well I just ordered one of these babies...

They said the price would be $215 US delivered to Canada..seems ok for what it does. They also said includes all accessories..but wondering how does one hook up a Charger to this ?? does it require a special adapter?

Surprised there isnt alot more people trying this out.

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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by cal3thousand » Feb 14, 2017 12:38 pm

I had some of the smaller Chargery 6S and 12S units, but they had problems with 1 cell being overstated by at least 50 mV, often more. I hope they aren't using the same logic or have taken care of that issue. New bigger boards, so I have to assume the changes were made.
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Re: New Chargery BMS model

Post by Inwo » Feb 16, 2017 10:19 am

I am working directly with the designer on this one.
I can address any issues when purchased from me.
Suggestions for improvements, repairs etc.
I am USA stocking distributor and you can get them to you conus in two days.

As easy as $250 to:
http://paypal.me/INWO

Goes out same day.

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Re: New BMS model

Post by johnnyz » Feb 21, 2017 11:20 pm

Still a little vague on how one hooks up a charger to this BMS and output for discharge...


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Re: New BMS model

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 03, 2017 11:13 am

Thanks Inwo for posting that interesting product!

That BMS look very interesting!! as it cover up to 24s and have most of the features we want.

BALANCE CURRENT:
That said, the 1.2A balance current is also very interesting however it is not constant current regulated I guess, it is constant resistance like most BMS bleeding circuit so it also depend on the size and length of the wiring lead that connect to the cells. We must keep in mind that if it balance UP TO 1.2A this is probably for a 4.2V channel witch mean a bleeding resistance of about 3.5ohms. Then if you use a conventional DB25 with 28AWG wires inside and couple foot length this add easy few ohms in addition of the 3.5 ohm bleed resistor this increase the total bleeding resistance value witch reduce a lot the bleeding current, AND also introduce false reading of the cell voltage as there is too much voltage drop in the wires witch also make the BMs to balance some wrong channel. One great way to measure each cell voltage WITHOUT being affected by the bleeding current is to pause the bleeding current for a brief period and measure voltage of the cells during that moment. The Popular 6s balance charger 8A tool model BC168 does that with great results.


SLEEP CURRENT:
As for the standby current ( Off state), I agree with Luke, that is very important to have it as low as possible. 0.7mA seem ok if we switch ok our EV AND BMS during no use. But it also would be great to have it convinient for some of our <10-15 Ah setup..

DISPLAY:
I like the fact that the screen is very informative and don’t require a PC or tablet. External remote display option possible? I see you show little PCB but it it an option available?


HEAT design management:
It would be interesting to measure how the heat generated by full current balancing could affect the rest of the circuit in term of accuracy. Sometime cheap electronic components are more affected by temperature like capacitor for exemple. As the internal temperature increase, how the cell voltage measurement is affected by that. Could the BMS measurement accuracy drift with temperature variation… Is it well desithen to handle full balance on full channel?.. 1.2a x 4.2 x 23 = 115 watts of heat.. wicth naturally happen in very rare conditions.


FIRMWARE:
Does it have the possibility to get firmware upgrade? Will it be well supported by the Chargery company over the time

COMPARE TO ? :
To me it is not perfect but it seem way better and complete than many actual existing products. It look like it was designed for large ebike users. My reference of the best design from now is the Adaptto BMS which is already incorporated to the controller and display and also offer BOOST voltage possibility to charge from any source above 12V.

CHARGER CONNECTIVITY:
I saw on your ebay auction page that you talk about the compatibilyty to connect to the deltaQ charger with the white trigger wire they commonly use, can you give us more details?


However, the Chargery 24s BMS can be used stand alone as a tool which is a very good point!

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Re: New BMS model

Post by Inwo » Mar 03, 2017 5:25 pm

Doctorbass wrote:Thanks Inwo for posting that interesting product!

That BMS look very interesting!! as it cover up to 24s and have most of the features we want.

BALANCE CURRENT:
That said, the 1.2A balance current is also very interesting however it is not constant current regulated I guess, it is constant resistance like most BMS bleeding circuit so it also depend on the size and length of the wiring lead that connect to the cells. We must keep in mind that if it balance UP TO 1.2A this is probably for a 4.2V channel witch mean a bleeding resistance of about 3.5ohms. Then if you use a conventional DB25 with 28AWG wires inside and couple foot length this add easy few ohms in addition of the 3.5 ohm bleed resistor this increase the total bleeding resistance value witch reduce a lot the bleeding current, AND also introduce false reading of the cell voltage as there is too much voltage drop in the wires witch also make the BMs to balance some wrong channel. One great way to measure each cell voltage WITHOUT being affected by the bleeding current is to pause the bleeding current for a brief period and measure voltage of the cells during that moment. The Popular 6s balance charger 8A tool model BC168 does that with great results.
1.2 amps is pulsed. Measure-pulse-measure-pulse-etc.

SLEEP CURRENT:
As for the standby current ( Off state), I agree with Luke, that is very important to have it as low as possible. 0.7mA seem ok if we switch ok our EV AND BMS during no use. But it also would be great to have it convinient for some of our <10-15 Ah setup..

DISPLAY:
I like the fact that the screen is very informative and don’t require a PC or tablet. External remote display option possible? I see you show little PCB but it it an option available?
I make the fpc cable to rj-45 and db25 pcbs. Waiting for results from a customer. I'll post pictures of his progress. Works great for me with 10' cable. I will make them available at low cost to MY customers.

HEAT design management:
It would be interesting to measure how the heat generated by full current balancing could affect the rest of the circuit in term of accuracy. Sometime cheap electronic components are more affected by temperature like capacitor for exemple. As the internal temperature increase, how the cell voltage measurement is affected by that. Could the BMS measurement accuracy drift with temperature variation… Is it well desithen to handle full balance on full channel?.. 1.2a x 4.2 x 23 = 115 watts of heat.. wicth naturally happen in very rare conditions.
Heat is controlled internally. There is no thermal conduction path from internal heatsink to case. For fast balance it must be modified to dump more heat. I have to say, in a couple days it will balance a 120ah 24s pack. 150mv


FIRMWARE:
Does it have the possibility to get firmware upgrade? Will it be well supported by the Chargery company over the time
Yes. Better yet I'm in direct contact with designer. He is open to my suggestions. Already came up with LTO defaults for me. Sometimes getting me new file overnight.

COMPARE TO ? :
To me it is not perfect but it seem way better and complete than many actual existing products. It look like it was designed for large ebike users. My reference of the best design from now is the Adaptto BMS which is already incorporated to the controller and display and also offer BOOST voltage possibility to charge from any source above 12V.
I have a 24s bms with remote display and Bluetooth. Not ready for general market. Works perfectly. Long learning curve. At least for me. I would sell it to an advance user for less than cost. Info by request. A matching boost charger is in the works.

CHARGER CONNECTIVITY:
I saw on your ebay auction page that you talk about the compatibilyty to connect to the deltaQ charger with the white trigger wire they commonly use, can you give us more details?
Certainly. When DQ chargers are updated to do Lithium profiles, the wire that previous was temp. sense, is a logic level enable. Pull low to enable charging. The BMS-24 outputs B+ voltage to relay coil. All I do is package an led and open collector NPN to pull to logic low for "enable charger" signal. As internal logic is referenced to B-, it only requires one wire. C to white charger wire.


However, the Chargery 24s BMS can be used stand alone as a tool which is a very good point!

That's what I use one for. Last night and today I'm measuring Volt battery capacity before selling a 4kw pack.
From 4.13 (limit of charger) draining 3.5kw volts of lowest cell = 3.00 bouncing back to 3.05 after removing 10 amp load.
As this was done at 35F, I believe 2012 Volt battery is doing well.


Doc

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Re: New BMS model

Post by Inwo » Mar 03, 2017 5:43 pm

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