DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

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VRUZEND   1 W

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 13 2017 8:40am

I believe that would work. That is the beauty of this kit, it is very customizable to each person's unique needs. You could actually replace the bus bars with short pieces of 14 or 16 awg copper wire, and even leave the insulation on the wire in between cell terminals to make it a bit safer and more protected from accidental short circuits.
[/quote] Amazing idea!

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parabellum   10 MW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by parabellum » Apr 13 2017 8:41am

emaayan wrote:
parabellum wrote:Not sure, you are responding to me, what I mean: Taking 10AWG cooper wire with ring terminals on both ends and serially interconnect the central cell bolts of parallel groups. In this case, every bus bar takes ~1/9th of total current flow.
you mean in addition to the 3 bars serially connected? btw are there any awg ratings on ring terminals?
Yes, no need for those (Edit: as conductor). Rating on ring terminals can be determined by material and cross-section area between ring and crimp. I make my own high current ring terminals. Short ACP cooper tube section, hammered on 1 side and crimped (and /or soldered) to cable on other, do not forget to drill a hole on flatted part before cutting of the ACP coil roll. :)
Last edited by parabellum on Apr 13 2017 8:42am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 13 2017 8:42am

emaayan wrote:ok here's the thing i'm trying to figure out (please excuse my drawing skills) , if the bus bars are to be placed only among cells next to each other,if i'm trying to build a triangle battery based on 9p groups, (3x3) then i can only connect 3 bus bars on a serial connection, and since those bars can only take up to 3.5 amps and i'm going 30 amps, those bars (marked in red) and the contacts under them will be the bottle neck.
also because i can only connect 2 each time, this means connecting 3 cells maybe have the bars a little stacked on each other like the drawing shows
Image
The bus bars have been tested upto 3.5A never said they can only take 3.5A!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 13 2017 10:23am

I have an interest in using copper wire with the insulation on , because I want to make a pack that is not a square or rectangle.
For Instance think of making a small diameter / long bottle shape pack, ( Picture the Down Tube of a Modern Aluminium Bicycle ) Using Copper Wire that would connect each set of parallel cells to the next set to make up any number of series ( 10/12/13/14/16 s , etc . )

Parabellum Please post some pictures of how you do it .

Also , would we then be able to use 12 awg wires for most applications of e-bike packs ?


parabellum wrote: Yes, no need for those (Edit: as conductor). Rating on ring terminals can be determined by material and cross-section area between ring and crimp. I make my own high current ring terminals. Short ACP cooper tube section, hammered on 1 side and crimped (and /or soldered) to cable on other, do not forget to drill a hole on flatted part before cutting of the ACP coil roll. :)
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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methods   10 GW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by methods » Apr 13 2017 10:47am

I really like efforts like this.
At his pricing... the key is to buy 1 or 2 kits MORE than you think you will need.
The spare parts will always be useful for an aux 4S pack or some other use (like RC)

- Phone Charger (with a 10 year shelf life)
- 200W Inverter Power Pack
- Super-awesome long life flashlight
- Endless applications

As for heating... if you look closely at a Tesla pack... each cell is connected with a *tiny* wire.
To that note...

If there is concern around heating in the contacts I suggest focusing on pulling that heat away.
The larger you build your buss-bars... and the more thermally conductive material you use... the more you will be able to get away with.

These peak power moments... 20A... 30A... these are not continuous in our use case (99% of the time)
Most ebike controllers and motors will burn up / overheat before you can lay down that much power continuous
You will see bursts... and those bursts will produce heat... and that heating will be averaged over time... contingent on thermal conductivity

The buss-bar system should help a lot with pulling the heat away from the contact point and equalizing out peak inefficiencies.

Remember always that it is VERY TOUGH to produce a product like this gentleman has.
To meet everyone's requirements is impossible
To meet a lot of peoples requirements is tough
To invest the time and money to actually provide a solution... that works... deserves respect.
If there are bugs to the system... as a team we will work them out and provide modification paths to success

Pure Awesome.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by leelorr » Apr 13 2017 11:57am

>Remember always that it is VERY TOUGH to produce a product like this gentleman has.
>To meet everyone's requirements is impossible
>To meet a lot of peoples requirements is tough
>To invest the time and money to actually provide a solution... that works... deserves respect.
>If there are bugs to the system... as a team we will work them out and provide modification paths to success
>
>Pure Awesome.

+1

I consider this an exciting advancement!
Last edited by leelorr on Apr 13 2017 12:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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parabellum   10 MW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by parabellum » Apr 13 2017 12:08pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Parabellum Please post some pictures of how you do it .

Also , would we then be able to use 12 awg wires for most applications of e-bike packs ?
If you are about ring terminals, then:
IMG_20170413_123501.resized.jpg
Correctly, its called ACR cooper tubing.
IMG_20170413_123501.resized.jpg (120.8 KiB) Viewed 2379 times
IMG_20170413_124133.resized.jpg
I would recommend to solder after crimping, its to soft to hold by itself.
IMG_20170413_124133.resized.jpg (139.02 KiB) Viewed 1287 times
P.S. If you flatten this tube, you become a very conductive (current and heat), soft and flexible bus-bar. If corrosion is concern, you could electroplate it with Nickel, or heat it up in some SS dish and Tin plate it with solder wire.
Hope it helps.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by parabellum » Apr 13 2017 12:10pm

leelorr wrote:>Remember always that it is VERY TOUGH to produce a product like this gentleman has.
>To meet everyone's requirements is impossible
>To meet a lot of peoples requirements is tough
>To invest the time and money to actually provide a solution... that works... deserves respect.
>If there are bugs to the system... as a team we will work them out and provide modification paths to success
>
>Pure Awesome.

+1

I consider this an exciting advancement!
+1

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by emaayan » Apr 13 2017 12:39pm

really? i thought about using ring terminals such as these http://www.panduit.com/en/products-and- ... -terminals

along with a standard 10awg wire , like this https://www.amazon.com/High-temperature ... 3605507011

which should prevent corrosion , as i have no idea how to preform any of the treatment like electroplate it with nickel or SS dish ...
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by macribs » Apr 13 2017 12:53pm

1+ to what methods stated. Respect for the time and effort put into this kit.

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parabellum   10 MW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by parabellum » Apr 13 2017 1:01pm

emaayan wrote:really? i thought about using ring terminals such as these http://www.panduit.com/en/products-and- ... -terminals

along with a standard 10awg wire , like this https://www.amazon.com/High-temperature ... 3605507011

which should prevent corrosion , as i have no idea how to preform any of the treatment like electroplate it with nickel or SS dish ...
Those, you linked, are nice. I only make my own because, only flimsy automotive type and massive gozilla inverter lugs are available locally. Everything in between must be ordered from US. :roll:

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 14 2017 2:57am

methods wrote:I really like efforts like this.
At his pricing... the key is to buy 1 or 2 kits MORE than you think you will need.
The spare parts will always be useful for an aux 4S pack or some other use (like RC)

- Phone Charger (with a 10 year shelf life)
- 200W Inverter Power Pack
- Super-awesome long life flashlight
- Endless applications

As for heating... if you look closely at a Tesla pack... each cell is connected with a *tiny* wire.
To that note...

If there is concern around heating in the contacts I suggest focusing on pulling that heat away.
The larger you build your buss-bars... and the more thermally conductive material you use... the more you will be able to get away with.

These peak power moments... 20A... 30A... these are not continuous in our use case (99% of the time)
Most ebike controllers and motors will burn up / overheat before you can lay down that much power continuous
You will see bursts... and those bursts will produce heat... and that heating will be averaged over time... contingent on thermal conductivity

The buss-bar system should help a lot with pulling the heat away from the contact point and equalizing out peak inefficiencies.

Remember always that it is VERY TOUGH to produce a product like this gentleman has.
To meet everyone's requirements is impossible
To meet a lot of peoples requirements is tough
To invest the time and money to actually provide a solution... that works... deserves respect.
If there are bugs to the system... as a team we will work them out and provide modification paths to success

Pure Awesome.

-methods
Thank you so very much for these kind and encouraging words. I completely agree with your last statement. As a team impossible is nothing. I am very open to suggestions and feedback's. It is thanks to each and every one of you and your invaluable feedbacks that I have already begun work on the V2 kit. Not only will it have nickle plated copper bus bars but the internal contact too wont be of SS any more. I will be putting up all the details as soon as I am sure from my end. It will take some time as I am working on my motor kit as well. But rest assured I have taken into consideration all the tips and suggestions given. As for the price, motto is simple, make as good a product as you can for as low a price possible. I believe in giving my target audience as much advantage as possible.

Thank you all for the support!

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by emaayan » Apr 14 2017 4:01am

did he.. say .. motor KIT?


you can't just THROW things like that willy nilly on ES forum and expect it to go under the radar..

version 2 sounds good, i think i might give v1 a try when it arrives , and wait for v2 in parallel..
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by emaayan » Apr 14 2017 5:09am

can i make a few suggestions?


1. your video needs to be in HD, it was hard to make out the fine details, especially when you show the inside of the cells.

2. i'm pretty sure it's safe to say you can make 3 holes bus bars, i know you want to fine grained the components, but most standard configurations start with 3 cells in a row (for example 10x3 for 36v on 11 AH pack)

3. it would be nice if you could post a graph of a single cell with a single cell holder showing the amps usage along with heat along the bolt and bus bars.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by tomjasz » Apr 14 2017 12:50pm

parabellum wrote: P.S. If you flatten this tube, you become a very conductive (current and heat), soft and flexible bus-bar. If corrosion is concern, you could electroplate it with Nickel, or heat it up in some SS dish and Tin plate it with solder wire.
Hope it helps.
BRILLIANT!!!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by tomjasz » Apr 14 2017 12:55pm

emaayan wrote: 3. it would be nice if you could post a graph of a single cell with a single cell holder showing the amps usage along with heat along the bolt and bus bars.
Would you? Jeez fella. Give the guy a break. Hopefully very few customers will be so willy nilly with the man's time. These kits are cheaper than buying parts and doing anything even near the complexity. Let the product develop. Or better yet, help it.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 15 2017 4:15am

Hello Everyone,

A very kind client from Germany, Joris, sent me a mail as to how he is going to use the kit for powerwall applications for his RV. He has even connected the fuse wires. Do have a look. Might help! He is yet to try it out though.
I was planning to do an instructable on the power wall I am planning to make vor my RV.
I had some thoughts about the tesla style fuses incorporated into the kit. I came up with two versions.
In both versions the fuse wire will melt at about 7 amps. So the load to the battery pack should be way less. I am planning to make a 1kWh 7s power pack for my RV. The estimated max load should be around 600W peak. This means about 25A to 20 cells in parallel, which is about 1,25A per cell. Even if some fuses blow due to internal shortening the fuses will not blow due to the load (hopefully...)
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IMG_3428_klein.jpg
IMG_3429_klein.jpg
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IMG_3431_klein.jpg
IMG_3432_klein.jpg

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by craiggor » Apr 15 2017 5:20am

I like your product. I will email you soon to order.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by emaayan » Apr 15 2017 1:35pm

i think magnets had this idea once. about the fuses..
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 15 2017 10:36pm

craiggor wrote:I like your product. I will email you soon to order.
Thank you!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by mcairns64 » Apr 16 2017 7:00pm

I bought some of these to build a prototype for a larger stationary power source. They’re pretty good! Solid, quality components.

The pack on the left is 12V, 3S6P balanced. The one the right is 1S28P that I use for a 5V supply.

Make sure they are at least partially seated before you pound them. You can get them apart if you have to, but it takes some work.

I’m looking to forward to building a larger 3S50P, 100 Ah pack. :P
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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by VRUZEND » Apr 17 2017 12:18pm

mcairns64 wrote:I bought some of these to build a prototype for a larger stationary power source. They’re pretty good! Solid, quality components.

The pack on the left is 12V, 3S6P balanced. The one the right is 1S28P that I use for a 5V supply.

Make sure they are at least partially seated before you pound them. You can get them apart if you have to, but it takes some work.

I’m looking to forward to building a larger 3S50P, 100 Ah pack. :P
Image
Thank you Sir for the update and the feedback. Also thank you for the permission to use the pic. Appreciate it!

P.S- Welcome to ES!

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 17 2017 2:48pm

VERZUND You have making an Army of little battery Monters. The world is changing.

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by rumme » Apr 17 2017 4:24pm

Looks like a solid product so far. Once the packs are assembled, and then hammered together for a very tight friction fit , how difficult is it, to get the packs apart ?

Just wondering if it is a bit difficult , maybe there could be a improvement on that end of the spectrum if a person needs to disassemble the plastic casings from the batteries, to repair/replace a particular cell .

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Post by emaayan » Apr 17 2017 4:27pm

i can't be harder then a welded and hot-glued pack ;),

but so far i'm mostly worried about heat in the contacts, i'll have to check it myself when i'll do discharge against 0.5 ohm resistor on a single cell
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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