N.E.S.E. the no solder module

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jun 28, 2017 11:01 am

So i received my missing cells and finished my pack. Here it is, 20S6P:

Image

Image

Still need a BMS and wiring to do. You can see here how a strap ties all pack together. It should be another one at the top but i did not put bolt caps and one tie vaporized :D

I also got my Sony VTC5A as well so as soon as i have time i will do another test with upped amps:

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm

So i have ran full discharge of Sony VTC5A @ ~200A VL. My enclosure did not survive. It did discharge to zero but at the end of this cycle it was all rubbery and flexy. Cells went to ~90C realm so that explains why (PETG up to 80C max). I still want to get those LG HB6 cells to do a test with them, probably up the amps so it does not drop below 200A during the test. Will see. At the moment i am done.
The bus bars of the module were at around 50C so it was still ok and most heating they've got were probably from cells them selves. Here is the vid:

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by tomjasz » Jun 29, 2017 2:36 pm

Who is everyone using to print? (if you're not printing)
Maybe we could get a best price if several use the same printer?

T
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Bison_69 » Jul 04, 2017 12:41 am

Hi there,

I have been trying to print for a test... a 4S cell pack and I can't close the cover...

It is odd because any else I print is perfectly fine... I guess we need to play a lot with the 3D printer parameters.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 04, 2017 1:21 am

Right. Lets sort you out. Could you post me photos of the module you printed? Email me at agniusmk at gmail dot com.

P.S. You have to insert the lid at rear end at about 45 degrees angle. Put some pressure on it. First time its tight

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 05, 2017 3:19 pm

Doing balance wires.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Matador » Jul 08, 2017 8:45 pm

I am absolutely clueless about how much it cost to 3D print.... Anyone got any price per module for 3D-printing ? Just to give a crude idea of the price range.

I wonder about the 3 material (PTFE, ABS or polycarbonate).

Polycarbonate looks solid!


Matador

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Bison_69 » Jul 10, 2017 2:49 pm

agniusm wrote:Right. Lets sort you out. Could you post me photos of the module you printed? Email me at agniusmk at gmail dot com.

P.S. You have to insert the lid at rear end at about 45 degrees angle. Put some pressure on it. First time its tight
Hi Agniusm,

Here are the pictures... of my 1S4P sample made with ABS filament, the nozzle was 0,35mm and parameter were not appropriate.
I will make another attempt with the nozzle 0,25mm and try to fine-tune the setup... but I will wait first to obtain
some PETG filament (the ABS has a tendency to shrink a little...)
IMG_04191.JPG
IMG_04202.JPG
IMG_04213.JPG
IMG_04234.JPG
IMG_04245.JPG
IMG_04256.JPG
IMG_04267.JPG
Thanks
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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 10, 2017 3:49 pm

My nozzle is .4. Have you scaled your model to 101%? ABS is hard to print right. Have you used a brim? It probably would help with shrinking.
Also your 45 degree inclines do not look good, probably needs some part cooling fan. I set up mine to 35%

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by tomjasz » Jul 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Matador wrote:I am absolutely clueless about how much it cost to 3D print.... Anyone got any price per module for 3D-printing ? Just to give a crude idea of the price range.

I wonder about the 3 material (PTFE, ABS or polycarbonate).

Polycarbonate looks solid!


Matador
those materials are crazy expensive to have someone print.
Prices vary. Almost enough to justify a small printer if you do more than one or a larger battery, with 4 or 5s. I hate to excite and anger anyone but this method of regaining development costs will hold back the sales. Best price ive found for petg is around 8USD for a 4s. Making it $160 in materials for a 10s4p battery, once all parts are shipped. Maybe a bit more.

$120 in printing and shipping for 14s4p. So for the case, if i continue, it means a printer. Then there the very real costs of development and tooling, as well as plating. I've talked to many makers and developers over the last weeks, as well as the maker here. No one has quite seen this same gambit. They price their materials betting on sales and success, not charging the early adopters for the work.
That said this deserves support, but when up against vruzend, pricing is a choke point. Regardless of this makers review.

I'm torn. I like this design. I'm buying a printer. I have one 10s being built. I will build another 14s when i get my printer. I'll be printing moduls at lower prices with petg. But i'm stuck waiting for an update from China on the printer. That could be a month. Then is still have to sort the flexible caps. Another expense, but pretty cheap.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 11, 2017 4:02 am

Tom, stop putting it up against Vruzend. Vruzend kit is cheap, but:
Its not easy to build. Some cells are left out without touching contacts and you have to take it apart.
It is low power, probably 4A per cell, 20A per recommended 5p.
Its open pack and you still need materials and labour to insulate open terminal area and/or enclose the whole pack
Its larger.
Take hub motors. The internals are the same, bit more material but higher power motors cost more.
Take 18650 cells. Same manufacturing technique, same materials but some cost more then others.
If you don't need such high power capable battery that you don't need to solder or weld, stick with vruzend, you can also build a welded pack. My price it set and there is no need to shout about it over and over. To expensive, just avoid and go where the price is right for your budget.
Take Sketch with hubsink. 69usd for heatsink is expensive, but he done the whole work and he is right to charge for it.
Its cheap for people to spend couple grand on vacation but expensive to buy couple hundred battery kit. Maybe the hobby is not for them?
Sorry, but this pricing debate and wine is starting to piss me off.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by tomjasz » Jul 11, 2017 5:49 pm

Edit, useless drivel and honest response deleted.
Last edited by tomjasz on Jul 14, 2017 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 13, 2017 6:44 am

Not doing it again, my bad. I have so much work around in other stuff i do where i get most income from, that i don't really care about this too much to stress. I would rather have it sitting there for the price i have set then selling it for something that will do no good for me. I have partly set you up Tom and the rest is how it goes, don't really care.

P.S. "whine", you caught my typo there, thank you, it was important ;)

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by zzoing » Jul 14, 2017 7:42 am

Ok that looks like a decent design, I'm not going to indignate myself like a furious gorilla on your thread as you did because i have other projects to do, i'm happy you bought a 3d printer in the end, it's lighter. I see you are using PLA.

Poron sounds OK. Technically you will find Urethane may have inferior lifespan, temperature and elastic performance to silicone... because when it's hot it AGES! I recall that live for physics said "elastic polymers are barely reliable because of compression set", and AMTech said i didn't know what I was talking about, even, at all, ever, with my elastic polymer 3d thing... :D Caltech research demonstrates the compression set is not a major issue for 10 years with silicone elastomers. comnpression set acts mostly in the first month, after which a compressed by highly elastic state is reached. still it has to be accounted for.

Indeed, porous elastomers are the current performance maximum for long term elasticity because they don't only compress, the cellular structure means that there are transverse bridges inside the elastic. Let's check out your contacts? You didn't show photos of the battery contacts.

Well done for sourcing porous elastomer for the contact pressure... The maths: the battery weighs 45g, the elastic is 3g, so the elastic inertia is lower and it always moves faster than the battery. pretty cool.

Impressed that you did a vibration load current apparatus.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 14, 2017 8:03 am

zzoing wrote:Ok that looks like a decent design, I'm not going to indignate myself like a furious gorilla on your thread as you did because i have other projects to do, i'm happy you bought a 3d printer in the end, it's lighter. I see you are using PLA.

Poron sounds OK. Technically you will find Urethane may have inferior lifespan, temperature and elastic performance to silicone... because when it's hot it AGES! I recall that live for physics said "elastic polymers are barely reliable because of compression set", and AMTech said i didn't know what I was talking about, even, at all, ever, with my elastic polymer 3d thing... :D Caltech research demonstrates the compression set is not a major issue for 10 years with silicone elastomers. comnpression set acts mostly in the first month, after which a compressed by highly elastic state is reached. still it has to be accounted for.

Indeed, porous elastomers are the current performance maximum for long term elasticity because they don't only compress, the cellular structure means that there are transverse bridges inside the elastic. Let's check out your contacts? You didn't show photos of the battery contacts.

Well done for sourcing porous elastomer for the contact pressure... The maths: the battery weighs 45g, the elastic is 3g, so the elastic inertia is lower and it always moves faster than the battery. pretty cool.

Impressed that you did a vibration load current apparatus.
And thank you for checking out. I remember I did get furious and I would do it again. Your pursuit of names and lack of work while prognosing rapid release, talk about patents got me in the mood. You also can remember that I guaranteed that you won't release your product and I was right, because it was too soon with too little. Sorry for my mouth but I do not regret it.
Regarding 3d printing, it is still hard. The only thing that changed since then is availability of advanced materials and to answer your question, NO, I am NOT using PLA, its crap. My personal choice is PETG, best all rounder, then ABS, PC.
Again on 3d printing and why I did it. My sizes of the modules are just right for fdm. Its not too small to loose the detail and not too large to stay in a tolerance range and avoid all kinds of deformations.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by zzoing » Jul 14, 2017 4:17 pm

No one else except yourself was indignated by my design, or the premise of acting now to get a lot of boxes made. You write furiously about my design made with a 3d printer and porous elastomer, and then you buy a 3d printer and use porous elastomer, it's a bit fishy, but competition is good. If you make a home-run company with your designs, chances are that there will be copy cat products coming out of someone else's factory, then you would shout more. Chinese entrepreneurs often take 1-2 months to make replicas of things they see on sale in the west. Regards work, my box is more like an origami than your work. I'd love to see your version turned around and assembled and disassembled, if it's got design advantages, i'll tell you it's a proper good design. I don't know what radioactive products the soviets imported into poland, hope you don't get any Yodan Flames from that :D Image

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 15, 2017 8:04 am

zzoing wrote:No one else except yourself was indignated by my design, or the premise of acting now to get a lot of boxes made. You write furiously about my design made with a 3d printer and porous elastomer, and then you buy a 3d printer and use porous elastomer, it's a bit fishy, but competition is good. If you make a home-run company with your designs, chances are that there will be copy cat products coming out of someone else's factory, then you would shout more. Chinese entrepreneurs often take 1-2 months to make replicas of things they see on sale in the west. Regards work, my box is more like an origami than your work. I'd love to see your version turned around and assembled and disassembled, if it's got design advantages, i'll tell you it's a proper good design. I don't know what radioactive products the soviets imported into poland, hope you don't get any Yodan Flames from that :D
If you would look when i started working on this battery design you would see that it was about Wed Sep 10, 2014 and your first post appeared Sun Oct 02, 2016. I don't know if i was copying you from the future :D I took the idea of using Polyurethanes from Snath and worked on that principal ever since. 3D printing came for prototyping and material availability did it possible to print stiff and strong parts.
BTW i am Lithuanian, not Polish or Russian. I have my website up and you could just figure that out by domain name or my profile here.
With each post you do no favor to yourself ;)

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by macribs » Jul 15, 2017 10:59 am

@zzoing why spend your time in this thread at all? In your own thread you did not show a product nor did you even try to estimate a timeline to production. Instead you talked wage about a battery box without welds, focusing hard on a name that could score you funding. We are closing in on the one year mark on your thread and I have not seen progress made. If you ain't got the cash to take your idea from just an idea an into an actual working product you got in fact nothing. Ideas are cheap. Most people have them. Play around with them in their minds and never complete them or never try to put the idea into production or an actual product. An idea in itself is nothing if you loose momentum and drive.

This thread is already a product. Maybe things could be done different, other materials chosen or whatever. But here we have a product. You can buy it, print it and use it.

Rather then focusing on what others do or a the coolest name focus on the overall goal for your idea. Keep a narrow focus on the end product and how to get there. To help you along I will free of charge give you a name. 123batterybox. Even the domain is available as a .com domain... Use it, change it or whatever. Just get your product made, or post some actual information about it so you might get help from skilled people here to regain your momentum.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by zzoing » Jul 16, 2017 4:01 am

I sent a PM to Agniusm when he said my project was silly and worse, to say... you do very precise engineering, we can collaborate if you want? ... No reply :) he was not joking!!! this was a seriously silly company project :D

To make a serious company which can replace a day job, you would have to insure your liabilities, AND use a fuse-per-cell design too, which is a difficult, but it's technically feasible.

Thanks for the 123BatteryBox name. If I had a reasonable clear name last year, It would would have saved me a lot of confusion and indiceision. That's the most intelligent name i heard in years!!!!!!!

It's great to make lots of them, because they would be useful to many enthusiasts. But there is a high risk element involved financially, you have to get everyone to check a disclaimer about the dangers of lithium. The quality control has to be very high for small and big production runs... So then you think: I would have to insure the entire company in case i am liable for someone getting sand inside the box and igniting their camper van/home/car.

There's a french company that tried a solderless box and they seem to have failed, I dunno if anyone from E.S. has reviewed them: http://www.tyva-energie.com/en/ ... They only have 4 news articles on their product dating from 1 year ago.

... I'll tell you a weird story about Tyva Energy... They live about 2 km from me, and I phoned them up one year ago (thinking that they design electric rally cars) to knock around some ideas with them. The boss was at a design trade show in America, and i lost interest in them and didn't phone them back. When i was just reading this tread, i saw that they live 2 minutes away from me, and they tried to commercialize a solderless battery box at the same time as I was. Weird?!

Tyva has got it wrong. Don't you think? It's not compact, it's not fused, AMTech is more reasonable at this stage.

I contributed to this thread because, Agniusum and liveforphys told me elastics were not reliable, and in fact my project was "pcsOFcrap" (thanks Amtech). So this project surpised me to the max! one year ago, AMTech was making heavy metal boxes with no springs in them:
Image
Image Our designs parrallel each other. the only thing missing is the use of vertical pressure to fine-tune the elastic pressure, something you can do when you have two independently mobile lids full of elastics.

The rubbers can be used as glue, same as the seal of a car door slots all the way around, the Poron potentially can hold the contacts into place when you lift the lid up. Also they can be independently pressurized to compensate for change over time. Also silicone used in military equipment 0-rings, subject to pressure, Urethane? perhaps not? I can publish all aspects of my design, but the contacts are too difficult without metal pressing equipment.

Alan B: These pictures are too large, the OP should fix that.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 16, 2017 4:41 am

You are a retard in the end. Sorry for this word. Go and read my thread from beginning, each post, study it then come back. My design was always with polyurethanes. Elastomers is very broad expression and most are not suitable.

The prototype you refer to as a box is GFRP with aluminium side and it uses low set foam in it:

Image

If you don't see something in one photo, does not mean its not there, further more talking about weight when you cant weigh a photo.
Fuses are good, but not all automakers use them. Its a DIY market, its not a finished battery, you are responsible what you build and how you maintain, charge your batteries.

I have to ask MODS to clean this thread from nonsensical posts by Mr. zzoing. Spinningmagnets, please if you could, i said that he can say anything but this is pure trashing.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by zzoing » Jul 20, 2017 5:50 am

Forget about web karma problems, your recent engineering is great keep on striving for it. We must post a chronology of E.S. design efforts and projects, including Snath who was very fast in 2014 with Poron... Because current project communications are decentralized and we don't know what is going on.

This forum is populated by scientists and most of us are mutants of one kind or other.
Retard is a strong word in English, it's more common in playgrounds than engineering forums. You are probably the only contributor on endless sphere who uses that kind of language, others are adept at objective, non-personal, constructive criticism. you should be aware of excess, on my thread, on your thread, it's only a fact of Karma afterwards.

It's fine to speak passionately about stuff, honest people use swear words more often, but strong words like crap and retard are an excuse to fill in blanks in phrases and not use hectically experienced words.

The giant aluminium outer cladding with nubs on it from 2016 for 84 batteries was very amazing, it took from 2014 to 2017 to complete your alpha thread, from 3D sketch to prototype testing, which is not fast to make the alpha box, so why call me retard? it's better to make smaller prototypes, because a 84 cell box takes 10 times longer than a 10 cell box, and that's not timely. Otherwise, in 3 years, you could do 20 development cycles using 10 cell boxes.

To be not retarded the project can be doing ageing tests, going onto fuse integration and large volume production equipment.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 24, 2017 1:49 pm

Hello. Some news. I was contacting people who do 3D printing around the planet and trying to get better deals on bulk printing enclosures and some would have reasonable prices, but as soon as you start to dig deeper into conversation, price suddenly skyrockets. I dont know whats happening with this cause CNC takes out manual labor from the equation and its there to make stuff cheaper, somehow computer and CNC = manpower :shock:
Anyway, i bought quiet large 3D printer to manufacture enclosures myself. I recon i can produce 14 10S6P cases a month and if all goes well and there is demand, i can scale up my mini factory. I already started producing flex caps to insulate bolts and bus bars on my smaller printer.
Price wise, i am expecting to make them at 60eur per 10S6P, 30eur for 10S3P accoringly.
Average price to get 10S3P printed is 100usd.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 25, 2017 11:06 am

I have updated my website and now it is possible to order enclosures. They are on demand at the moment but i will have stock in coming future.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by macribs » Jul 26, 2017 7:25 am

That is good news. I've been looking at various 3D print options and what I've found is that 3D printing is very expensive. So much so that one of the print shops said that the battery enclosure would be much cheaper to have a mold CNC'd and mold the battery enclosures. I don't know if they where onto something or not as I have no experiences with molding. But I do know that if you looked into the molding you would get a much larger pick of material to choose from. And the raw material costs for molding probably would help keep the end product at a reasonable cost.

I think the problem you might have is that 3D printing is not scaling very effectively.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 26, 2017 8:08 am

What do you mean molding? Do you mean injection molding or die casting?
If injection molding, molds cost fortune, i mean probably 5-10 grand at least. Now think, how many modules i would need to sell just to get that money back? Diy electric isn't that big, considering not all people would go with this setup. 3D printing is just right to get it roling and my price is probably lowest you will find anywhere and still feasable although not cheap.

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