N.E.S.E. the no solder module

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 26 2017 9:36am

I was flamed on Endless sphere facebook sales group regarding price and here were couple of mentions of that. I would like to take a moment and show everyone what it really costs in comparison:

Ebikes.ca:
Ligo 36V 2.7AH - 144 (36V 16.2AH - 864usd)
36V 19AH - 695
36V 14AH - 425
Luna Cycles
36V 24.5AH - 635usd
36V 17.5AH - 425usd
36V 25AH - 500usd
em3ev
36V 17AH - 439usd
36V 10.5AH - 349usd
36V 12.6AH - 389usd

N.E.S.E battery
36V 17AH
NESE hardware - 80.38eur
NESE enclosures - 60eur
Panasonic NCR18650PF x 60 - 174eur (Legit cells from official dealer, nkon.nl)
TOTAL : 365USD(314.38EUR)

Prices do not include shipping and NESE would need PCM (30-60USD)

Now all above battery packs would cost the same when they are done.
Mine would only cost 174eur for cells and its good as new. Bonus, cells could be recycles, battery kit reused many times.
Go figure the math what works best ;)

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by macribs » Jul 26 2017 10:02am

I am really not sure what type of molding they referred to. But I tell you what, over the weekend my summer is over and I am back to work. I've got clients nearby their shop so next time I am in the area I sill swing by them and ask for more details. Maybe they can even give some pointers about what raw material would work and how to do molding the cheapest way without breaking the bank.

The prices you listed above seems fair.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 26 2017 10:30am

I believe they are referring to injection-moulding plastic parts, very cheap to have thousands made very fast. Check youtube for video. Here is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZG_s4o1We4

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 26 2017 10:50am

This is a good example of mold pricing: https://rexplastics.com/plastic-injecti ... molds-cost

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N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by banjaxxed » Jul 26 2017 3:54pm

I am considering ordering a kit, would it be possible to add the insulators to Thingiverse? as I already have a printer

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 26 2017 7:02pm

Sorry, what insulators are you reffering to? All relevant stuff could be downloaded at http://18650.lt/index.php/resources/

Sharing on Thingiverse is something i would not do. Without the tabs and other bits, 3d models are irrelevant. I have them free to download on my site. All the 3D model files are available there. Also any aditions that will come will be added.
One of witch is power bank enclosure. Basically, people making batteries in 3P and 4P will have tab leftovers and I want to make an enclosure to fit power bank electronics and 2 or 3 cell tabs which were cut as well as full tabs. It will have 2 USB ports with 2.1A and 1A charging plus soc display. It good backup to recharge smartphones, cameras, all the gadgets on 5v.
Last edited by agniusm on Jul 27 2017 5:27am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Rube » Jul 27 2017 4:39am

Agnisum, congrats on an innovative and great product. I appreciate your straightforward approach to sales and customer interaction but you might avoid some questions by having a "Download 3D design" link on the resources page.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 27 2017 5:01am

Thank you. Resources page displays different parts. If you click on the required part page with relevant download opens. There you have technical sheets, 2 tipes of enclosure to download in stl format and view 3d model online.

P.S. I have updated site with writen note to click on the images below. Good pointer there as i would imagine some people would not think they are clickable images to relevant parts.
If you would check and report back if it is more clear that way and there is suficient information. Thanks

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Rube » Jul 27 2017 5:38am

Works well on mobile.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by banjaxxed » Jul 27 2017 11:52am

Ah yes, great I see the flex caps are there on your site, perfect I am intrigued by this design, wondering if it is possible to have a pack arrangement on the underneath of a flexible trampa mountainboard, with each nese segment connected by a silicone wire this may be able to take the flexing and with a certain amount of water resistance it is really appealing in that scenario, no need for a enclosure what do you think?

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 27 2017 12:49pm

You could be the first to try this and post about it...do it!

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 27 2017 1:07pm

Its possible. Depending on voltage, if necessary amount of modules will fit. I think i can call them splashproof, not waterproof. If you need waterproof it could be done but then enclosures are not reusable. Basically they would need to be printed from ABS, then cells and all hardware fitted, then closed and acetone welded.
Last thing to figure out is how to mount them on the board.
For flexible connections you might look into copper braid, could be an option with crimped ring terminals (ID of ring terminals should be no less than 5.3mm)
Also, you could use some copper pipe with braid. Inserted braid into copper piece would flattened and hole drilled. When on module, all gets clamped tight, probably cheapest.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by banjaxxed » Jul 28 2017 6:20am

Instead of acetone welded I was thinking silicone, the flexibility of 8awg between modules might be more beneficial and also waterproof unlike braid/pipe. I have seen braid used before in this way successfully within a segmented enclosure so that does work for flex

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by helno » Jul 30 2017 1:38pm

Going back to the injection molding discussion I have very recently turned a 3d printable design into an injection molded product.

We did it because as you have found 3d printing is cheap for a prototype but is not capable of scaling up economically.

The break even point in cost is around 1000 units produced and the price really plummets after about 5000.

3D printed on the right injection molded on the left.

http://imgur.com/8e0f8VD

To give you an idea of the cost the tooling was around $3500 USD and the finished products cost about $1.50 landed in the US including packaging and accessories (Fan, screwdriver, etc.)

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 30 2017 2:55pm

Thanks for sharing your info on molding. Overal it sounds good. 5k is big for me, and i cant afford to risk that much at the moment. Second baby is comming september.
To brake even i would need to sell quiet few enclosures and it would only be one position and i have 4. Thats 14k in molds alone.
At the moment the price i have comes oit similar to ready made batteries, but i dont have lots of enquiries and I don't know if that's the price alone.
The risk I calculate is too high at the moment.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by helno » Jul 30 2017 3:34pm

As far as tooling goes you would decide what size is going to be the most common and make a mold for that. If you make a 6p enclosure the user does not need to install 6 cells if they want a smaller battery.

I can tell you right now the price is what kept me away, and I have the 3d printer to make the enclosures.

Just being modular is not enough to justify similar pricing to premade units. As soon as something is DIY it needs to be worth my time to assemble and source parts. The box I had molded is for a DIY device that sells for $150 and competes with devices in the range of $550 to $900.

I wanted to make a 7s3p battery but with your pricing I am forced to buy at a minimum 10s6p worth of hardware. The kit does not include balancing wires so I am left to figure that out as well.

In the end it was just easier and cheaper to buy a pair of large lipos.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 30 2017 3:51pm

OK, but you are 1 opinion. There will be some that will say that the size is too big if they want smaller battery, others will have other views on whats not suitable and after all that you are left with handfull whos interested and that hanfull wont even cover the cost of setting up.
Modularity is on of the benefits. Solderless, high power to name some other. The price is not low but it certainly isnt sky high counting in benefits vs. traditional packs.
Anyway, this method i chose allows to reasearch the market and avoid being broke with family going hungry :) If it picks up to the point where i see it succeed i would definitely invest in mass production. At this point i don't see way out. Perhaps i should investigate kickstarters or alike.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by helno » Jul 30 2017 5:50pm

I would stick with 3d printing for now but I would also find some way to reduce the hardware costs.

Modularity is great but if I am paying the full price when I want a smaller module then the value gets lost. I have to say I was totally on board until you opened your store and I saw the retail price.

Kickstarter is probably not a good idea for something like this. The people who back on there want completed projects not something that requires them to source batteries.

Keep in mind that I have no skin in this game only you know what your costs and margins are. Just trying to help you make this work.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 31 2017 1:05am

I appreciate you insights mate. The cost of manufacturing in Europe is really high and for example dimples are hand made, not die pressed. I could reduce hardware cost going China but again, enclosures are still a problem.
3D printing is an option. If you look at prusa research, they are making 3d printers and printing parts themselves.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by macribs » Jul 31 2017 11:42am

@helno not sure I agree with you about the crowdfunding. There are so many hobbyists around that have a hard time getting custom packs build for reasonable prices. Not only e-bikers, ie look at the DIY crowd of class D boomboxes. They are mainly using lead batteries because they don't trust lipo and 18650 becomes too expensive. Seems most of them are using 12-18v, some 24 and in some odd cases more then 30v. So they stock up on MC batteries that are small, but with shorter lifespan and less playtime then 18650 alternatives. Still they end up spending a fair bit of money on paralleling those 12 lead batteries. Now if they could use high quality li ion and assemble the casing themselves without the need for spot welding I think many would jump onboard.

And surely there are other hobbyists too that are looking for way to make their own li ion pack without spot welding. And really, how many would have to sign up for covering the sunk costs of the tooling and the molds? I am sure that kind of goal should be reachable with crowdfunding.

The upside would be that after the tooling is paid for by crowdfunding new markets would open up for this solderless kit. OEM sales.
Because the price per unit will be so low after the sunk cost is paid even larger orders for smaller OEM's could be made, or even really large orders to bigger companies. Because no extra tooling would be required.

If it was me, I would for sure find a way to pay for tooling and the molds. Maybe start slow, if it is hard to find founding. Decide to start with only one of your enclosures. The one you think will be the most universal that fits the widest range of customers. Beg, barrow and steal max out credit card if needed. For this idea to really pay dividends cost per units must drop and larger quantum's need to be moved. More then just the ES ebikers crowd. Make a side deal with one or more sources for quality no-feak, original li ion cells and be able to offer customers even better prices on cells by using a cupon or whatever. Even well known sources for li ion can drop prices for their best customers.That way you will give your customer even more incentiv to buy your solderless design.

For stuff like this that is easily replicated by knock off artists in the far east my take would be to milk the cow and keep milking until saturation hits. Roll out as much and as fast as possible. Others will try to get a slice of your pie. You got two things going for you. The solderless pack has not yet been solved in a manner that cater for all needs. Even high amp users. Second you already got a design you know work and you know it work well even under hard load. Now crank up the mill and make as much money as possible while you are at it alone.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 31 2017 2:29pm

I just dont have that kind of money nor i can get it somewhere unless rob a bank.
I was hoping that there will be some more fortunate people who will start this rolling and i would have some cash to invest in die cutting tabs at first and then perhaps molding if all goes well but only time will tell cause i'm out of options.
I wish i could just jump in and make, make affordable, i just cant and kickstarter always looked sketchy to me

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Bison_69 » Jul 31 2017 6:12pm

Hey Agniusm,

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"Your tiny little human brains. How do you get around in those things?"

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Aug 01 2017 5:55am

I would but... i am an engineer and have little to do with marketing and the crowd need eye candy to be hooked. I guess i am afraid that if i would open a campaign it would be a joke :)
I got first quote for injection mold. 7500USD total. Its a two cavity mold. It is quiet something.

On the other note i started manufacturing enclosures myself. Printer was running non stop for the past week

Image

Image

Today, big volume printer is coming in, 400x400mm vs. 250x210mm i have.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Aug 01 2017 6:26am

Just did a quick calculation. I would need to sell 500 10S kits at 70usd each just to break even. That's a lot of battery

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 01 2017 6:28am

For V1, I am certain using 3D printing is a wise choice at this time. As wonderful as I think these are, there will likely be minor improvements over the next few months. Once an $X thousand dollar mold is made for an injection-molding machine, modifications are difficult, if not impossible. Prototypes must be beaten like a rented mule.

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