N.E.S.E. the no solder module

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 04 2020 3:21pm

district9prawn wrote:
Jul 04 2020 10:29am
That makita pack looks nice!

I have not checked in on this thread for some months now. Great to see so many new projects and improvements.

What good cells are there in the 26650 format?
Thanks. One good cell is A123 2.5ah iron phosphate if you dont mind the weight and lower wh/l.
My brain says dont do it but my heart shouts go fir it :D. I know there is little demand on these cells but it makes a nice set of most commonly used cells.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Jul 04 2020 6:24pm

There are many uses for power packs other than eBikes, and A123 has been making top-notch LFP cells for a very long time now, please do keep supporting them.



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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Jul 04 2020 6:30pm

At 2.5Ah, a dozen cells passes the 100Wh air travel restriction

either just under 40V, at 2P6S just under 20V

3P4S 12Vnom at 7.5Ah.

Would be a good building block. . .


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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 05 2020 8:43am

Got makita battery prototype finished. 12AH, posible to make 2P to 8P or up to 25.6AH

Image

Reuses top cover, latch, spring and screws.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 22 2020 7:58am

NESE V2 is up on thingiverse. For now only “Closed” modules, but “Vented” will be added soon.
Check print settings as they are different for V2 and play big role in rigidity.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Jul 22 2020 9:43am

Thanks for all your hard work!

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 23 2020 2:54pm

Thank you.
Here is the link for 3D printable files:
https://cults3d.com/en/users/18650/creations

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 26 2020 1:04pm

I have now uploaded all sets of modules, closed and vented. If you will find any errors, please, let me know. Thanks

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by thepronghorn » Jul 26 2020 8:35pm

What is the recommended nozzle size for printing your modules?

I really like the design. As intended, with all of the structure provided by 3d printed parts, it takes a lot of filament and printing time. One idea I have to reduce the amount of printing time is to just use 3d printed cell spacers/endcaps (example pictured below) to hold the cells and copper strips. The endcaps would be clamped together with end plates and threaded spacers. This goes back more towards the original snath design.
4x4 NESE brick.PNG
4x4 NESE brick.PNG (106.13 KiB) Viewed 1237 times
It could still use your very nice nickel coated predimpled copper strips and the clever top termination design with the inset nut (which I haven't modeled yet).

What do you think of this design? I can also move this discussion out of your sales thread if you'd like. :)

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by methods » Jul 26 2020 10:37pm

Badass

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 27 2020 1:52am

thepronghorn wrote:
Jul 26 2020 8:35pm
What is the recommended nozzle size for printing your modules?

I really like the design. As intended, with all of the structure provided by 3d printed parts, it takes a lot of filament and printing time. One idea I have to reduce the amount of printing time is to just use 3d printed cell spacers/endcaps (example pictured below) to hold the cells and copper strips. The endcaps would be clamped together with end plates and threaded spacers. This goes back more towards the original snath design.
It could still use your very nice nickel coated predimpled copper strips and the clever top termination design with the inset nut (which I haven't modeled yet).

What do you think of this design? I can also move this discussion out of your sales thread if you'd like. :)
Hi. I would appreciate if you could move to a separate thread. I will share my input when i can.
If you would search my threads, there was one for developement of the no solder/weld system. Initially i was thinking making something what you are proposing. But there are couple of things.
Replacement of a bad cell would be more complicated as you would need to disassemble more.
You cant set how much you want to compress the foam unless you machine spacers and that adds cost and weight.
Modules would be larger in volume.
Its a bit fiddly to fit top unless your cells ar perfectly strait, i had to lasercut fishpaper so they would allign better and i could fit top lid.
I am not discouraging you, just sharing experiences i had on my jorney and ehy i chose this over that. I would like to see if something comes out of your thinking.
BTW, 3d printing takes long time, but its not manual, 1kg of plastic will make you 14 6P modules probably more with V2. By the time your ordered hardware will arrive, you can print average size battery.
My modules being rectangular boxes are still possible to arrange in 3 or more ways so you can still choose which fits better, say 20s could be arrange in: 2 rows of 10 or 4 rows of 5 or 5 rows of 4 or 20 rows of 1.
Then ther is simplicity. I had many firs time battery builder that told me it was very easy to make a battery.
I print with 0.4 nozzle, people tried courser and 0.6 was marginally ok, higher and it would miss important details

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Hickbeard » Jul 27 2020 2:28am

thepronghorn wrote:What is the recommended nozzle size for printing your modules?

I really like the design. As intended, with all of the structure provided by 3d printed parts, it takes a lot of filament and printing time. One idea I have to reduce the amount of printing time is to just use 3d printed cell spacers/endcaps (example pictured below) to hold the cells and copper strips. The endcaps would be clamped together with end plates and threaded spacers. This goes back more towards the original snath design.
4x4 NESE brick.PNG
It could still use your very nice nickel coated predimpled copper strips and the clever top termination design with the inset nut (which I haven't modeled yet).

What do you think of this design? I can also move this discussion out of your sales thread if you'd like. :)
That looks like a nice alternative.

I like it could be double ended as agnisiums 8p inserts have dual tabs.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by thepronghorn » Jul 27 2020 4:59am

agniusm wrote:
Jul 27 2020 1:52am
thepronghorn wrote:
Jul 26 2020 8:35pm
What is the recommended nozzle size for printing your modules?

I really like the design. As intended, with all of the structure provided by 3d printed parts, it takes a lot of filament and printing time. One idea I have to reduce the amount of printing time is to just use 3d printed cell spacers/endcaps (example pictured below) to hold the cells and copper strips. The endcaps would be clamped together with end plates and threaded spacers. This goes back more towards the original snath design.
It could still use your very nice nickel coated predimpled copper strips and the clever top termination design with the inset nut (which I haven't modeled yet).

What do you think of this design? I can also move this discussion out of your sales thread if you'd like. :)
Hi. I would appreciate if you could move to a separate thread. I will share my input when i can.
If you would search my threads, there was one for developement of the no solder/weld system. Initially i was thinking making something what you are proposing. But there are couple of things.
Replacement of a bad cell would be more complicated as you would need to disassemble more.
You cant set how much you want to compress the foam unless you machine spacers and that adds cost and weight.
Modules would be larger in volume.
Its a bit fiddly to fit top unless your cells ar perfectly strait, i had to lasercut fishpaper so they would allign better and i could fit top lid.
I am not discouraging you, just sharing experiences i had on my jorney and ehy i chose this over that. I would like to see if something comes out of your thinking.
BTW, 3d printing takes long time, but its not manual, 1kg of plastic will make you 14 6P modules probably more with V2. By the time your ordered hardware will arrive, you can print average size battery.
My modules being rectangular boxes are still possible to arrange in 3 or more ways so you can still choose which fits better, say 20s could be arrange in: 2 rows of 10 or 4 rows of 5 or 5 rows of 4 or 20 rows of 1.
Then ther is simplicity. I had many firs time battery builder that told me it was very easy to make a battery.
I print with 0.4 nozzle, people tried courser and 0.6 was marginally ok, higher and it would miss important details
Thanks for the reply! The reason I wanted your input was because I knew you had been down that road before, but yeah I should go back and reread your thread. The point about having to fiddle to get the top on is very interesting and a factor I had not thought about.

I tried slicing the 4p base and with my normal speed settings I'm looking at 5+ hours! It's true I don't have to watch the printer the whole time it's printing, but I can't help myself lol. I think 5 euros to have you or a printing service near me print them is probably worth the time.

I'll move any further discussion to its own thread. Thanks again for the input!

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Jul 31 2020 8:02am

For those with 3d printers, i have couple sets of components awailable.
Its a extruder assembly nema17 mount breakout board for easy repairs and component swaps:
https://www.tindie.com/products/amtech/ ... akout-kit/

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Centurio » Aug 03 2020 3:32am

I love your idea and your projects. I am actuelly planing to upgrade robo mower batteries. I will consider your modules to make it easy as possible.

Keep on going. :thumb: Same for this 26650 modules.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Aug 06 2020 1:50pm

Thanks Centurio.

I am going away for weeks holiday. Coincidence that busbars arriving tomorrow. I will start shipping on 17th of August.
USA, New Zealand, Australia will be Fedex only as i have too many shipments lost and shipping starts at 25€. Probably best to look for combined shipping and then sort it out at the other end.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by district9prawn » Aug 26 2020 8:01am

Do you reckon your 26650 modules would work with 26800 if the print was scaled?
Neu 8057 6kW left hand drive hardtail with 18 fet Vesc: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96754

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Aug 28 2020 1:56am

district9prawn wrote:
Aug 26 2020 8:01am
Do you reckon your 26650 modules would work with 26800 if the print was scaled?
Scaling messes up holes but i can make custom sizes in a breeze. My files are made in halfs so its just a matter of increasing extrusion. Basically any cell length will work on 18650, 21700 and 26650 sizes

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I do not recommend N.E.S.E.

Post by akbarramzan » Sep 03 2020 1:39pm

I am really sorry if this annoys you but I have to speak my opinion:

I bought the NESE system and everything went well (overall) but I would not recommend it due to reliability concerns. I went for a 14S8P configuration and used genuine samsung 35E cells from fogstar.The NESE bus bars are too expensive, modules are not very space efficient and the connections are simply not as good nor as reliable as welding.

Why welding is better than using NESE bus bars:
You claim that the bus bars are fairly thick copper and have a large suface area for contact compared to the tiny spot welds on nickel. However, with the NESE system, you are effectively relying on spring pressure from the foam which is not as good or reliable as a proper weld, especially with the vibration environment of a bike. Also, if contact resistance is an issue with welds, you can simply just create more welds. I did some measurements for internal resistance of each 8P group and they were all around 2 or 3 mOhms but when I built my pack, one cell developed a bad connection. I only noticed this because I had a bluetooth BMS and all cell groups were with 5mV except for one when charging. I am lucky that I was tracking the voltage beforehand so that when I could safely discharge to the correct voltage before connecting the badly connected cell. Also, the bus bars were not plated properly in some areas with a slight orange tinge showing copper and black marks over the contact points in other places. For the price, I would have expected much better QC.

Why the modules are not efficient in cost or space:
The 8P bus bars on the website are the same cost as 3P which is stupid. If I wanted an 8P pack, I would either have to use 14S 8P bus bar sets or 28S 4P bus bar sets and reconfigure them to 14S 8P (2x the price but can configure the shape of the battery better). The big problem here is that the 8P modules are very long which will mean that you will find it very difficult to create odd battery shapes such as an ebike battery to fit in a triangle battery bag. I ended up having to split the battery in two and use 10 awg cable to connect them together so it becomes a triangle shape and fit in the bag. The prices of the bus bars cost almost as much as a spot welder for a medium size pack such as 14S8P. It makes the NESE system not worth it in my opinion.

The casing for this battery in terms of 3D printer filament was also well over 1kg of PETG. That adds to the cost and bulk.

If you are making an ebike battery, you are better off spending the £100 or so on an arduino spot welder and a suitable lipo battery. The NESE system is a good concept but not very practical for medium to large batteries where space is an issue.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 04 2020 2:09pm

Thank you for your opinion.
All tabs and bus bars are tin plated on a rack. Tin is soft material and gets marked easily. If i was to order them packed induvidualy from the factory and handled with cloth gloves it would cost even more.
Have you spun cells when inserted? They have to be seated properly and to avoid bad contacts or heatshrink trapped between the tab and cell you need to spin them couple of times.
The modules work flawless in vibrating enviroments. I can say this cause there are many people usimng them on skateboard decks unprotected. I have a 20S8P on a cargo bike with no suspension for 2 years without issues.
I except that the hardware is on the expensive side but so is this hobby. DIY market is not that large and i cant get better prices cause there is not much demand so i am stuck in this situation: sell it pricier or remove my solderless system off the market all together. As there are many people who enjoy this system and many customers who have over 5 orders for batteries, i will continue.
Sorry to hear you had bad experience and the system did not met your expectations.
Couple last mentions on forums and email:
Beherit wrote:Gonna vouch for these again because I did on the old forum. Both my e-bike and my esk8 use NESE modules and I really couldn’t be happier. I couldn’t stand disassembling Vruzends with a nut on each cell and the caps cutting my hands into shreds, and the Arduino spot welder I bought was defective and I was fed up with it.

Bought NESE busbars and printed my modules and I finally had working batteries. No more vibration issues like Vruzend, no need to spend hours cutting apart nickel strips because of a single dead cell like a spot welded battery. Definitely worth the price of the bars. I’m surprised these don’t get more love.

I accidentally inserted a bad cell in the middle of one of my NESE packs a few months ago and by the time I found it scolding hot, I had that cell out of the pack and somewhere safe in under 5 minutes. Don’t think that would have been possible with any other system.
Sven wrote:The N.E.S.E. products I have received from you look very good. I think
it's a fantastic system you have developed. Will try to use this as the
base for my development. One type of cell that I would like to be able
to use is APR18650M1A.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Sep 05 2020 9:02am

Excellent keep up the good work!

I am certain your volume will grow in time allowing prices to come down.

Will +1 the idea of fitting the bigger A123 / LithiumWerks cells

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by will_newton » Sep 06 2020 12:39pm

Wow, someone did a bad job planning for cost and battery size, but it is the vendors fault. Even though all of this info is provided before hand.

The foam issue was discussed and explained in this thread. Seems fine to me, so far folks seem to view easy cell replacement as a feature, not a problem. Again, information available, but buyer complained anyway.

Sounds like someone is mad because this “no welding” kit did not make a welded up battery! Uhhhhh... :roll:


Agnius, I am VERY UPSET that my parts did not come with chocolate sprinkles on them! Chocolate sprinkles are the most important detail for my build and your parts don’t have them! I can’t believe I spent more than a HK lipo for this and there are no chocolate sprinkles! :lol:
Adult sized E-kick Scooter- Self-made frame, NC1606/35amp, 12s10 ah lipo Hidden build thread in the E-S Beer section!
The 6 year build Electric Big Dummy 24" HT3525/Methods100V/100A/24s15ah lipo
Daily Driver- E-Cannondale: front WE BD36/20amp-CA limited, 12s16ah lipos. Yeah, it's brushed, but it goes EVERY time I hit the throttle. K.I.S.S!

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by The Toecutter » Sep 07 2020 12:13am

When do you think the 26650 versions will be available? What kind of current draw could I reasonably expect the modules to handle, continuous and peak? I have two packs of lightly used A123 12S4P 26650s that I obtained for a total of $100 that I want to turn into a 24S4P pack for my home built velomobile. I won't be getting the kweld spot welder I need until October at the earliest. I have everything I need to convert my vehicle to electric EXCEPT for the battery.

I'm tempted to drop $400 on some 18650s and a similar no-weld kit just so I can get this thing going as an EV.

If I do get a kit to allow me to build a weldless pack, once I do get a spot welder I do plan to disassemble it and properly weld the battery pack together, since I want to get as much power as possible, perhaps 7.5 kW peak, to be fed to a 1500W Leafbike motor. I'll be happy if these weldless setups can give me at least 1.5 kW continuous, to hold me over for the time being.
Last edited by The Toecutter on Sep 07 2020 6:37pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Sep 07 2020 7:40am

The goal should be for a no-weld solution to securely carry just as much current.

The whole point is easy per-cell testing and replacement, making it superior, welding being the inferior approach.

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