N.E.S.E. the no solder module

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Hickbeard   100 W

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Hickbeard » Sep 07 2020 11:20am

john61ct wrote:The goal should be for a no-weld solution to securely carry just as much current.

The whole point is easy per-cell testing and replacement, making it superior, welding being the inferior approach.
If you factor in the cost of a welder for a beginner who is only going to make a handful of packs in his lifetime, maybe even just one. Then this is a cheaper option.

Yes it does take up more room but you just factor it in. It may not be the most suitable application for everyone but I think it is a very good option.

Unfair to compare it against spot welding. If you compare it to other non weld means of connection I'd say its up there.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Sep 08 2020 4:33am

Unfair?

Cost is not important, top question has to be, does it work? Reliability, longevity etc

Welded is a non-starter if you need to regularly atomize / rebuild the pack for testing cells.

Everything is "fair" just depends on your priorities

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Hickbeard   100 W

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Hickbeard » Sep 08 2020 9:35am

From a beginner perspective cost will always play a role but agree you don't want to have to snip off each weld, sand back and start again.

This eliminates that problem

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by The Toecutter » Sep 12 2020 4:57pm

It sucks that if I order these I will have to wait 10 weeks... They would definitely work for my application.

I'm currently waiting on a spot welder to arrive, but that will take a similar amount of time. I'm tempted to order a Vruzend kit that I know is likely to cause many problems that these NESE modules won't entail just to get my trike running as an EV. The battery is the only thing I need, and I have already paid for both cells and a BMS that are on the way...

But these modules are a nice solution!

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 13 2020 2:57am

The Toecutter wrote:
Sep 07 2020 12:13am
When do you think the 26650 versions will be available? What kind of current draw could I reasonably expect the modules to handle, continuous and peak? I have two packs of lightly used A123 12S4P 26650s that I obtained for a total of $100 that I want to turn into a 24S4P pack for my home built velomobile. I won't be getting the kweld spot welder I need until October at the earliest. I have everything I need to convert my vehicle to electric EXCEPT for the battery.

I'm tempted to drop $400 on some 18650s and a similar no-weld kit just so I can get this thing going as an EV.

If I do get a kit to allow me to build a weldless pack, once I do get a spot welder I do plan to disassemble it and properly weld the battery pack together, since I want to get as much power as possible, perhaps 7.5 kW peak, to be fed to a 1500W Leafbike motor. I'll be happy if these weldless setups can give me at least 1.5 kW continuous, to hold me over for the time being.
It will provide 6.5kW of continues current and 15kW for couple minutes.
Welding is not a proper way anyway. When welding, some heat gets through to cell electrolite which deteriorates cell more or less. Then you have nickel which is less conductive than copper. You cant weld 1.8mm nickel to the cell which would have equal throughoutput of my tabs not to mention contact area of 4 spotwelds vs nipple that covers allmos all cell terminal area.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Addy » Sep 13 2020 4:00pm

agniusm wrote:
Sep 13 2020 2:57am
Welding is not a proper way anyway. When welding, some heat gets through to cell electrolite which deteriorates cell more or less. Then you have nickel which is less conductive than copper. You cant weld 1.8mm nickel to the cell which would have equal throughoutput of my tabs not to mention contact area of 4 spotwelds vs nipple that covers allmos all cell terminal area.
You might think welding is not proper, but it's the method used to build the vast majority of commercial cylindrical cell battery packs.

Copper can be spot welded, I would recommend the nickel/copper sandwich technique as seen here:
viewtopic.php?p=1579841

As for the contact area:
True-points-of-contact-occur-only-at-the-asperities-of-the-contacting-surface-leading-to[1].png
True-points-of-contact-occur-only-at-the-asperities-of-the-contacting-surface-leading-to[1].png (91.61 KiB) Viewed 491 times

I find it hard to believe that two unwelded, uncrimped metal surfaces could be superior to a welded joint where the two metals are fused together.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by john61ct » Sep 13 2020 8:53pm

Spot welding is superior **only** in that one factor, contact resistance,

actually well past the point of what is needed.

Possibly inferior in allowing for damage that reduces cell lifespan.

Definitely **inferior** in not allowing easy atomization for monitoring / testing / replacement at the individual cell level.

Once the no-weld solution allows for both a low enough resistance connection, along with

secure and reliable enough in the face of high shock / vibration use case,

at not too high an increase in pack cost,

then **that** becomes the superior technology.



Last edited by john61ct on Sep 13 2020 8:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

akbarramzan   1 µW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by akbarramzan » Sep 14 2020 3:11am

Contact resistance is not an issue with welding. The weld spots actually alloy together for an extremely reliable and good connection. If for some reason you are pulling unreasonably large currents from each cell, you can simply just add more weld spots.
Welding with a 20ms pulse time will not damage cells.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 21 2020 6:42am

Addy wrote:
Sep 13 2020 4:00pm
agniusm wrote:
Sep 13 2020 2:57am
Welding is not a proper way anyway. When welding, some heat gets through to cell electrolite which deteriorates cell more or less. Then you have nickel which is less conductive than copper. You cant weld 1.8mm nickel to the cell which would have equal throughoutput of my tabs not to mention contact area of 4 spotwelds vs nipple that covers allmos all cell terminal area.
You might think welding is not proper, but it's the method used to build the vast majority of commercial cylindrical cell battery packs.

Copper can be spot welded, I would recommend the nickel/copper sandwich technique as seen here:
viewtopic.php?p=1579841

As for the contact area:
True-points-of-contact-occur-only-at-the-asperities-of-the-contacting-surface-leading-to[1].png


I find it hard to believe that two unwelded, uncrimped metal surfaces could be superior to a welded joint where the two metals are fused together.
The clip-art would be terifying for someone who is new and i would cringe myself. What matters is real life data. And i have that. The resistance of my system at extreme discharge rate is almost nothing and that is while vibrating the module. And i almost can bet that spotwelded sane amount of nickel strip layers woud result in higher resistance.
The reason of spotwelding being used everywhere is simple. Its far cheaper and could be automated with least materials needed. Also space savings. It does not mean its better, it means producer can make more money of you.
There are many more unwelded or friction high power connections in the world, more than there are batteries. Think of switches, contactors ;) each and every electric car has them pushing hundreds of amps

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 21 2020 6:48am

akbarramzan wrote:
Sep 14 2020 3:11am
Contact resistance is not an issue with welding. The weld spots actually alloy together for an extremely reliable and good connection. If for some reason you are pulling unreasonably large currents from each cell, you can simply just add more weld spots.
Welding with a 20ms pulse time will not damage cells.
There are inheretant issue with welding. Battery packs move ever so slightly even in most rigid packs which introduces high stress point on the welded strip. Also heat damages cell protective surface and it is more susceptible to corrosion. I seen packs damaged this way, segway, makita etc.

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by The Toecutter » Sep 21 2020 8:47am

agniusm wrote:
Sep 21 2020 6:48am
There are inheretant issue with welding. Battery packs move ever so slightly even in most rigid packs which introduces high stress point on the welded strip. Also heat damages cell protective surface and it is more susceptible to corrosion. I seen packs damaged this way, segway, makita etc.
A friend of mine discovered a burned cell in a 13S4P Li Ion pack that he built. It was the result of corrosion at a spot weld between a cell terminal and the nickel strip. His pack was limited to 750W. Unfortunately, the maker space that availed him their spot welder is no longer open, otherwise I wouldn't be waiting on my kweld to arrive in order to fix it as well as assemble my own pack.

Were it not for the 10 week shipment to the U.S., I'd have ordered these NESE to try out. They look like a nice, easy, reliable solution that avoids permanent cell damage.

Addy   100 W

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Addy » Sep 21 2020 12:30pm

agniusm wrote:
Sep 21 2020 6:42am
The clip-art would be terifying for someone who is new and i would cringe myself. What matters is real life data. And i have that. The resistance of my system at extreme discharge rate is almost nothing and that is while vibrating the module. And i almost can bet that spotwelded sane amount of nickel strip layers woud result in higher resistance.
Have you posted this data before? It would be great if you could share this so that others can make the conclusion on their own. I could do some resistance measurements of some spot welds.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 21 2020 1:04pm

Addy wrote:
Sep 21 2020 12:30pm
agniusm wrote:
Sep 21 2020 6:42am
The clip-art would be terifying for someone who is new and i would cringe myself. What matters is real life data. And i have that. The resistance of my system at extreme discharge rate is almost nothing and that is while vibrating the module. And i almost can bet that spotwelded sane amount of nickel strip layers woud result in higher resistance.
Have you posted this data before? It would be great if you could share this so that others can make the conclusion on their own. I could do some resistance measurements of some spot welds.
You can read page 3. Did some tests and Matador helped calculating the values. Videos of the tests is also there.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 24 2020 1:00pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Sep 12 2020 4:57pm
It sucks that if I order these I will have to wait 10 weeks... They would definitely work for my application.

I'm currently waiting on a spot welder to arrive, but that will take a similar amount of time. I'm tempted to order a Vruzend kit that I know is likely to cause many problems that these NESE modules won't entail just to get my trike running as an EV. The battery is the only thing I need, and I have already paid for both cells and a BMS that are on the way...

But these modules are a nice solution!
Its not a set constant of 10 weeks. Post office advertises that shippments MIGHT incure longer delivery times of up to 10 weeks. I had recent shipments delivered to US in acceptable time frame.
I had to put that note there for my protection as i cannot keep refunding people when the cause is COVID and all the nonsense associated with it. I have to wait for stuff longer too and i have to weare mask like everyone else. Its just the times we are in and we need to adjust.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Sep 24 2020 1:06pm

will_newton wrote:
Sep 06 2020 12:39pm
Wow, someone did a bad job planning for cost and battery size, but it is the vendors fault. Even though all of this info is provided before hand.

The foam issue was discussed and explained in this thread. Seems fine to me, so far folks seem to view easy cell replacement as a feature, not a problem. Again, information available, but buyer complained anyway.

Sounds like someone is mad because this “no welding” kit did not make a welded up battery! Uhhhhh... :roll:


Agnius, I am VERY UPSET that my parts did not come with chocolate sprinkles on them! Chocolate sprinkles are the most important detail for my build and your parts don’t have them! I can’t believe I spent more than a HK lipo for this and there are no chocolate sprinkles! :lol:
I bet you would cut your tongue licking it off but damn, for the sake of a selfie i could of sprinkled all over them with extra can included :lol:

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by The Toecutter » Sep 24 2020 6:25pm

agniusm wrote:
Sep 24 2020 1:00pm
Its not a set constant of 10 weeks. Post office advertises that shippments MIGHT incure longer delivery times of up to 10 weeks.
I get that. It's just that my experience thus far is that everything I ordered from a foreign location(I'm in the U.S.) has taken AT LEAST 10 weeks. I'm still waiting on a LiFePO4 24S BMS I ordered in early July, for example.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Frank » Sep 30 2020 2:28pm

Any thoughts on making the 21700 holders Vented? I would think that would help with heat shedding under high loads. Or, is this design available and I've just missed it?

Thanks!
Frank

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Oct 01 2020 12:43am

Frank wrote:
Sep 30 2020 2:28pm
Any thoughts on making the 21700 holders Vented? I would think that would help with heat shedding under high loads. Or, is this design available and I've just missed it?

Thanks!
You just missed it :) : https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/gadget/ ... -v2-vented

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » Oct 01 2020 12:44am

The Toecutter wrote:
Sep 24 2020 6:25pm
agniusm wrote:
Sep 24 2020 1:00pm
Its not a set constant of 10 weeks. Post office advertises that shippments MIGHT incure longer delivery times of up to 10 weeks.
I get that. It's just that my experience thus far is that everything I ordered from a foreign location(I'm in the U.S.) has taken AT LEAST 10 weeks. I'm still waiting on a LiFePO4 24S BMS I ordered in early July, for example.
It is how it is. I can offer Fedex 4 day service as well but it costs 25-35eur.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Frank » Oct 01 2020 5:47am

agniusm wrote:
Oct 01 2020 12:43am
You just missed it :) : https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/gadget/ ... -v2-vented
Thank you - I was looking on the main site but didn't see it there. Good stuff.

Have you ever repeated the experiment to measure high load currents and busbar resistance?
Frank

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