Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 08, 2017 2:19 am

We apparently have 7 bikes ready to be shipped to Australia this week, hopefully a few aussies will have one under the Christmas tree!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by bionicon » Nov 08, 2017 2:37 am

skeetab5780 wrote:
bionicon wrote:
skeetab5780 wrote:
Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!
I thought the price was the hype :roll:
How much did you pay for yours? Who has actually paid for one besides Moto Arthur and maybe one other...
I wait and see ,if Arthur can get it done that it wil be road-legal I would buy one :D ....if the price is alright :roll:If the price comes closer to the lmx than i would choose the lmx for sure.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Nov 08, 2017 3:49 am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!

We are making millionaires by the hours for China. The prices on Chinese made goods has increased or evn skyrocketed just in the past 4-5 years. 10+ years ago, importing from China was for the brave ones, and the sellers on Chinese mall websites expected or was happy with just a small payout/net result from each sale to export, say 10-15 net result.

As the buyers from all over the world flocked to Chinese websites to get great deals, sellers found that we, the flock of sheep are willing to pay about anything they ask of us. Even for products that are made entirely by Chinese parts, hands and crafts. Products that should be seriously cheap when looking at the prices for labor, raw material costs, etc. But as more and more sellers from China got their eyes open to the extreme pay off possible for export, so has our mind set changed too. We now expect to pay way more for a products for export then the base cost of the same product bought in China. That means that people will happily buy the sur ron at 6k, as an illegal bike, even if the company behind the bike is making a profit at 2350 $.

What used to be nothing by a little time consuming, shopping from China has turned into very time consuming because of all the upcoming millionaires in the making, that on a daily basis is testing the waters for the most extreme profit margins.

I've got friends that buy bulk from China as a living, and for the past 3-4 years pretty much all deals are made locally when visiting China, factories and making or at least try to make the right connections. It seems the only way to get the right deals and correct prices are to spend time in China, learn what the Chinese pay for their goods then find someone who can sell you bulk volume without the need of being a personal millionaire on one sale alone.

Greed is one of mankind's most universal forces, and greed is what is driving even the Chinese market.

If sur ron can sell for 2350 $ locally and still make profit, base price in europe should be less then 3.000 $, including VAT and delivered if correct shipping is brokered. But also in the shipping game there is greed, and the prices us small timers get for one container is for sure making one shipping agent a fat bonus check. For the US market, maybe just above 3.000 mark.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 08, 2017 9:09 am

macribs wrote:
skeetab5780 wrote:
Merlin wrote:6000?
And still illegal?
That's more expensive then lmx and all others.
What happend to the 2350 dollar price + shipping?
See what happens when you guys hype a product up, The price goes with it!


If sur ron can sell for 2350 $ locally and still make profit, base price in europe should be less then 3.000 $, including VAT and delivered if correct shipping is brokered. But also in the shipping game there is greed, and the prices us small timers get for one container is for sure making one shipping agent a fat bonus check. For the US market, maybe just above 3.000 mark.
This is the case with almost anything sold nowadays...clothes, fast food , electronics furniture, etc. It doesn't matter where its made, the markup in price is usually astounding.
I just bought a brand new stove for $349....1 weeks later, that same stove was marked down to $249...

I have a friend that owns a outlet store. He buys truckloads of stuff from overseas....his profit on it is astounding. He will average paying $12 for a pair of boots, and he sells them for $70 .

Mid drive ebikes, are notoriously over priced { IMHO} ....maybe SONDORS will decide to take a chance and enter that ebike market and offer a viable option for under $2000.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Nov 08, 2017 11:48 am

I find that the problem is that the stuff is too cheap nowadays.
When you need to pay 7 bucks to sharpen a knife at a local shop but instead choose to buy a brand new (that was imported from China) for less, there is some seriuos fuckup in our society.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 09, 2017 8:56 am

I am building a kit to try to make the bike street legal in California as a 'motor driven cycle'

I will get it as street legal as possible and take it to the CHP station down the street to see what they say.

I will post pictures of it. It will have a front fender and a headlight. Luckily I have a machine shop and can fabricate the
mounts. The fork brace has to clear the fender when the forks compress so it will be interesting.

I have been practicing feet down wheelies the last couple of days. The throttle is pretty forgiving. I have to disable the rear brake
power cut off so that I can feather the brake when I get over center. The next step is feet on the peg wheelies which are way cooler
and video worthy.

Possibly on the 17th I will get one of the electric power gurus to tune an ASI controller on a dyno. I was told the motor is good for 3 times the
current power level before saturation. I would settle for twice the power !!! And it will be a sine wave controller so it should be way quieter.
Twice the power would be perfect.

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Merlin
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Merlin » Nov 09, 2017 5:27 pm

sry to jump again in an US buy....
but motomoto, if iam not totally dumb it "looks like" you allready ride one.

so..ehh....where are the videos of the bike.
all i found is the china video stuff.
you cant ask those ppl in the video.
but when you have one, even if is only a handyvideo...go for it.

iam pretty sure some of the speculations can be more clear in the miracle glas bowl.

1.what type do you have? 60v?
2.what is the max speed on flat road with fresh battery?
3.what is the real weight?
4.what about the sound. is it really that noisy?
5.is it speed or trq throttle?
6.how is the suspension?
7.what does the display show?


if anything of this was ansered sry for asking again. but you would do me and others a favor if you can answer these questions in compact style =)

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 10, 2017 1:55 am

Merlin

Top of page 2

The thread seems to have copped the usual endless sphere formula of procrastination about

Too expensive or too illegal or no pedals or some other narrow minded opinion( which is totally acceptable )

It is a group but thread tho

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Nov 10, 2017 10:57 am

Aebrennan wrote:Merlin

Top of page 2

The thread seems to have copped the usual endless sphere formula of procrastination about

Too expensive or too illegal or no pedals or some other narrow minded opinion( which is totally acceptable )

It is a group but thread tho
I miss clicked and sent you this as PM sorry for that. I will call you out in broad daylight so here we go.
And there you gi again. If people have different mindset then you start wit the name calling, narrow minded pffh.
The only one polluting this thread is you, over and over again. You may as well jus stop, everyone can see what you are doing. You are as transparent as glass. Take your poor people suppression skills and move on. You are ruining this thread for everyone!


Sorry mister that was really attacking the wrong person. :oops: so uncool of me. My old tired memory mixed your nick with another nick in the thread and I just lost all my bearings and got way to hot headed, it is really never a good thing to write on a forum in anger and rage without checking the facts first.

I am truly sorry. I was out of place calling you out as I did, as your other posts in this thread has been to the point and without any negative vibe.

Sorry guys!
Last edited by macribs on Nov 10, 2017 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Merlin
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Merlin » Nov 10, 2017 11:04 am

ok found the video(again). but motomotos answer was alot of "i think"

(as i saw the video i thought it was also only another china guy video....but when i count 1 and 1 and multiple with the name "motomoto"
its clear to me now why it looked like another china dude video only :D

sry for that :D

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by JuiceMeUp » Nov 11, 2017 7:34 pm

motomoto wrote: Possibly on the 17th I will get one of the electric power gurus to tune an ASI controller on a dyno. I was told the motor is good for 3 times the
current power level before saturation. I would settle for twice the power !!! And it will be a sine wave controller so it should be way quieter.
Twice the power would be perfect.
If you do get this done, how'd you feel about sharing the config file?
I've been eyeing off one of these controllers but from what I've read, it requires Black Magic to set it up.
In the mean time, we're waiting for the AU group buy to arrive

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by scrambler » Nov 12, 2017 6:39 pm

In case you are not monitoring all the sur-ron threads., there is an Interesting first report from Arthur on the Firefly bike.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1334044

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 12, 2017 6:45 pm

Interesting comments but no video footage?
I will have to watch and listen again to check out if he did the analysis of the bike or his contact in China?
It would be awesome if Motomoto did another video with an update as he clearly has the bike!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 13, 2017 10:39 pm

I just listened to Artur's video. Yes, the bike could be bigger and it could have more power. The overheating of the motor
is the opposite of my experience. When I have been flogging it for quite a while I stop and feel the motor and it is barely warm.
My battery does not have any issues. I think they made the motor sound noisy on purpose with the square wave controller. It could
easily be fed a sine wave and be quiet. We will see what the factory does with the issues that Artur mentioned.
Last edited by motomoto on Nov 26, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Hyena » Nov 14, 2017 12:28 am

Could you quickly measure the seat height ? Or tell us how tall you are so we can get an approximate feel for the size from your vid?
Going roughly off the seat height to rear wheel size ratio I'm guessing the stand over height would be more suitable to someone around the 5'7-8" height (ie medium) than the 160cm Artur suggests. But if he's 6 foot plus I guess everything seems too small.
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 15, 2017 1:36 am

Yes, if you want to be ergonomically correct, 5'7" or 5'8" is the perfect size person for this bike. I came from the minimoto seen
where 6 foot plus guys race Honda 50 minibikes and have a blast and are fast, so it fits me fine at 5' 11"
honda 50.jpg
honda 50.jpg (65.02 KiB) Viewed 623 times
I just watched Artur's second video and it seems about the same as mine. I get a little crazier and hold the throttle wide open more
but the bike is about the same. When you hold the throttle wide open it does 70+ kph. To me that is a great starting point. The
equipment doesn't seem stressed and my motor never gets hot. I am sure if you lugged it up a steep hill the motor and batteries would heat up and possibly overheat. I don't bog the motor up steep hills and I would suggest not doing that to any electric motor setup. If you ride the bike in any other situation it is happy and should last a long time. At some point they will have a sine wave controller that is quieter and we will have faster controllers for it to make it faster and more fun. To me it is a well engineered piece and I will continue to ride the sh*t out of it and have fun.
Last edited by motomoto on Nov 24, 2017 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 18, 2017 11:55 am

Here is the stock rear wheel horsepower dyno results. Disregard the spikes at the beginning.
I was told that the pack is probably putting out 100 amps and it is typical that the Kw output
equals the hp reading, so with the voltage sag this is what we got.
sur-ron dyno.png
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Nov 18, 2017 2:29 pm

Hp to kw would be like this:

1 HP = 0.74569987 kw
P(kW) = 0.745699872 x 4,5hp = 3.3556494 kW

So 3.3 kw. But that is 3.3 kw mid drive power. So torque will be so much higher then a 3.3 kw dd hub.
Last edited by macribs on Nov 18, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by dirkdiggler » Nov 18, 2017 4:53 pm

Do you have an amp meter to check the amps? I'd be interested in knowing what it puts out. I've heard the 750w to one horsepower as the best comparison also. So on paper your 3.3 kw from 60v battery is only 55 amps. That leaves the 32 ah battery pulling only 2c. Should be able to handle much more than that.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 18, 2017 9:59 pm

Yeah, theory blah , blah , blah. Reality at the rear wheel is 1 kW is about 1 Hp especially through a drive train. This is from
an expert in the field. I didn't ask if he wanted his name mentioned, but he is one of Luke's friends.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 18, 2017 10:58 pm

macribs wrote:
Nov 18, 2017 2:29 pm
Hp to kw would be like this:

1 HP = 0.74569987 kw
P(kW) = 0.745699872 x 4,5hp = 3.3556494 kW

So 3.3 kw. But that is 3.3 kw mid drive power. So torque will be so much higher then a 3.3 kw dd hub.
You are overthinking it a bit. The dyno provides the exact information you are looking for and that is power measured at the wheel. That is the functional number we all care about.

There are efficiency losses through the drive train, gear reduction, wires controller and motor. Most of the time when people talk about Ebike power they are talking about Volts X Amps drawn from the pack. This doesn't account for any losses. It only tells you how hard the battery is trying but not the actual power output.

Efficiency loss of 25% from battery to wheel is probably pretty normal for a mid drive setup. That's likely why Moto's dyno operator said to consider the HP and KW equal for comparison sake. In this case the loss pretty much cancels out the conversion factor between the units.

So functionally speaking this bike that makes 4.5hp on the dyno probably performs the same as a bike that reads 4.5kw or 6hp drawn at the battery.

This bike would eat a bike rated at 3.3kw because that would be more like 2.5kw or 3.3hp at the wheel after the 25% efficiency loss.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Nov 19, 2017 10:39 am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Yeah, theory blah , blah , blah. Reality at the rear wheel is 1 kW is about 1 Hp especially through a drive train. This is from
an expert in the field. I didn't ask if he wanted his name mentioned, but he is one of Luke's friends.
1 kw is never about 1 hp. It is like saying 1 meter is about a foot. Or an hour is about 45 minutes. A dollar is never 3 quarters.
Kw is a set measurement. It is clearly defined so people don't need to guess. Your source is wrong, plain physics. And it is not open for debate or interpretation. It is a scientific fact. Just as sure as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow and the day after.


Edited

I was not trying to ba a dick about this, I was just pointing out that slip said HP and that the KW is always lower then HP.


Just re read your initial post, I agree with your statement.


Basically what you mean is that the motor effect measurements taken at the manufacturer was on the motor axle - and now the effect was measure'd on the rear wheel. Hence the drive train loss one would need to calculate in for the measurement taken at motor axle would be very close to the conversion number between kw and HP. Sorry english is not my native language and it is not always I understand the content in context. Sorry your meaning got lost in translation for me. :oops:
[+] rambling
If you measure 1 hp, no matter where the measurement is taken you have 1 horsepower effect. It you would like to know what that 1 horsepower is in kw you will need to convert. In small numbers like here one could argue the difference is not huge in numbers. I would say it does not matter. The difference is the same relatively no matter if you measure 1 hp or 1.000 hp.

For instance 1 kw = 1.34102209 hp.
1.000 kw = 1341.02209 hp

1 hp = 0.745699872 kilowatts
1.000 HP = 745.699872 kilowatts

I think what he might have been talking about is what is often mentioned as the drive train loss. If you have a 1000 hp engine in your high end sports car, most likely the manufacturer measured the power output of the motor on the crank axle. Before that power is "in the wheel/on the ground" there will be losses in drive train. Gearbox, shafts differential etc. As a rule of thumb these losses are often in the 20-30% range of the crank effect. If you take your car to a dyno most likely the number you get will be lower due to the drive train losses, but the DYNO number will be the true number, or real world number. Because the number is taken on the wheel. And that is basically what matters.

But you said that diagram was from a dyno. A dyno measure the effect on the rear wheel. So you can forget about drive train losses.
And in your case they measured the effect in horsepower. That is all well, and in Europe we mostly talk about affect as in horsepower for some reason. But if you would like to present the correct kilowatt effect of the motor measured on the dyno at the rear wheel you will need to convert the numbers. Otherwise you are in fact present inflated numbers that is wrong.

To do a correct bike by bike comparison by numbers both bikes would need to have dyno numbers to know the real world difference in power. Because we don't know if motor manufacturer inflated their numbers or not.
Last edited by macribs on Nov 19, 2017 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Nov 19, 2017 11:08 am

Please try to keep all the technical information in the main thread and not in a sale thread.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 19, 2017 11:30 am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Yeah, theory blah , blah , blah. Reality at the rear wheel is 1 kW is about 1 Hp especially through a drive train. This is from
an expert in the field. I didn't ask if he wanted his name mentioned, but he is one of Luke's friends.
power taken FROM THE BATTERY in kW (= input to controller) roughly equals the number of HP on the dyno than.
now everyone shold understand it.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by FlightService » Nov 27, 2017 8:41 am

although I am not in a position to be an earlier adopter, I am interested to hear how this thing stands up as I think it will set the electric e-bike/scooter/small motorcycle on its ear.

At $3k I think this thing is a great idea for a city commuter. I live in the DMV and this thing would be perfect for me. Put some pedals on it and a 25 mph governor and it would be even better.
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