Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

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Aebrennan
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Oct 30, 2017 6:30 am

More info directly from the factory regarding 72v

For example, we will not do 72V version. Because with 72V, the battery capacity will be come down, and this will affect the range.

This is the main reason we do not want to do 72V.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Oct 30, 2017 7:05 am

Aebrennan wrote:The reply from the factory in case anyone is interested

As I informed you before, motor is designed by our own company. Golden Motor just produce the motor for us accord to our design and requirements. We have the patent for our motor, controller, etc. And now, we improved the motor, and have a new partner to produce the motor for us completely as per our requirements. Now, the motor has 20% more torque, and less noise. The 2 samples which shipped to USA are with the initial motors before the improvement. Even like this, the US customer already satisfy with the performance, and several companies are fighting for the exclusive dealership. For your samples, will all use the improved motors.
Hm would a 75-7 or 75-5 be possible to hammer into the the frame? This frame are begging for 20 kw +.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by melodious » Oct 30, 2017 7:40 am

The best aspect of this bike is its light weight features. Part of that reason is the battery compartment. It's an around town, around your backyard trails, afternoon rock crawl, type of ride. Though, I'm still hesitant the impact resistance of the downtube :idea: area justifies the latter.

Those looking at this and wanting more power & capacity, should probably seek bikes with bigger battery compartments. There are are enough options out there in this regard, from Stealth to Nyx.

Those looking for even more, should be heading to DS motorcycle frames or bigger.

Somehow this bike has niched its way between what a normal bicycle can hold, and what a large motard bike can weigh.
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Oct 30, 2017 8:04 am

The battery compartment is hUge. So you can easily rebuild it and fit plenty of more cells inside for 72v20/40Ah

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Oct 30, 2017 9:09 am

motomoto wrote:I think the drive train is quite. The motor has a funny little knocking sound when it takes off. It's a motor cogging thing I think.
It is what it is. I am used to it already. It is definitely not hub motor quite. What you hear in the video is how it sounds. What
you don't hear or see in the video is when I take it down the road full speed. It winds up pretty high and goes pretty fast. I think
I am hitting 40 mph or more. Personally, I like the sound it makes.

I can't do a lot with the bike today, we are moving a machine into the shop.

The thing I noticed first off is that it is small. It fits little Chinese guys perfect !! I would have liked to see it 10% bigger in the frame size.
The ebike looks way to small for someone over 6ft tall , would you agree ?

With a 60 volt setup , I doubt it is going much faster then 40 mph top speed . I mounted a GPS on my 72 volt ebike and am averaging 45 mph at around 70 amps { 4900 watts} ....then again I'm using a DD hub motor, so maybe your mid drive is able to use gearing to really take advantage of the 60 volt battery and get a top speed near 40 mph.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Oct 30, 2017 10:54 am

I think the purpose of this bike is to be small?
Its like a miniature version of a motorcross bike but bigger than a pit bike.
If you want a full size then go for a KTM freeride or similar.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Oct 30, 2017 11:53 am

Size seems ok. Motor/controller/battery is borderline weaksauce, or so it appears so far. Pressure should be put to the manufacturer to sell rolling chassis and let us decide what battery, motor and controller to run. Wheelie are a must on such a bike. And you should be first out from the red light. The motor/controller/battery seems to be 3 things many ES users will swap anyway so kind of sucks to have to pay money for parts you will change.

Maybe a full review and more videos will change my mind, after all I base this on a pics and vids of a bike unseen.
Last edited by macribs on Oct 30, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Oct 30, 2017 12:25 pm

Allex wrote:I think the purpose of this bike is to be small?
.
agreed....I think any rider 6ft or taller, would not be comfortable on this and would probably look like odd on it.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Aebrennan » Oct 30, 2017 5:39 pm

I tried to get the frames only from the beginning but they are very unwilling to do so.
I’m sure that they have some kind of deal with their third party suppliers and government incentives to build complete product/production plant.
Hence the cheap suspension and brakes. They want you to change the bike to suit your needs but will only sell them complete for now.
I also think that $2000 Usd for a complete bike is cheap enough even considering you may change most parts, who else sells anything remotely similar for near that price?

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Merlin » Oct 30, 2017 5:54 pm

Aebrennan wrote:More info directly from the factory regarding 72v

For example, we will not do 72V version. Because with 72V, the battery capacity will be come down, and this will affect the range.

This is the main reason we do not want to do 72V.
ah eh...oh.....
did i missed something here?

voltage x capacity = watthours (nobody cares about amphours)

Samsung 30Q 1s3Ah = ~11wh

10s10p = 100cells = 1100wh
20s5P = 100cells = 1100wh



so where comes the capacity "down" for that main reason?!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Oct 30, 2017 9:41 pm

Aebrennan wrote: I also think that $2000 Usd for a complete bike is cheap enough even considering you may change most parts, who else sells anything remotely similar for near that price?
I personally would not be happy, paying $2000 for a ebike , then knowing I want to spend $1000 or more to upgrade to 72 volt battery - more powerful controller, etc.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by JuiceMeUp » Oct 31, 2017 12:41 am

I personally would not be happy, paying $2000 for a ebike , then knowing I want to spend $1000 or more to upgrade
I see it as a starting point for a great project with few surplus bits that can be sold off for upgrades. Can't wait..

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Oct 31, 2017 3:48 am

2000 dineros is dirt cheap for a bike like this even when you know you have to spend another grand.

Merlin, the contact person at sur-ron is not that tech-savvy, he types for instant that the current of the controller is 80Ah instead of 80A

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by SlowCo » Oct 31, 2017 4:53 am

motomoto wrote:I had 3 new people ride the bike today with rave reviews.
They are motorcycle people and they all want one. Their imagination goes wild with what they can do with it. Ride to work, camping, track riding. Personally, I dream about a small supercross track with bowl turns like a BMX track so you don't lose speed.
From the info in Sur-Ron's pdf file it seems there is a Standard Mode (3000W) and a Sport Mode (5000W). Could it be that the video of you riding it shows it riding in the Standard Mode? And that you didn't activate Sport Mode yet?
LIGHT BEE Electric Bike.pdf
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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Oct 31, 2017 10:51 am

rumme wrote:
Aebrennan wrote: I also think that $2000 Usd for a complete bike is cheap enough even considering you may change most parts, who else sells anything remotely similar for near that price?
I personally would not be happy, paying $2000 for a ebike , then knowing I want to spend $1000 or more to upgrade to 72 volt battery - more powerful controller, etc.
I am with you bro. Pay for parts not used, ande even pay for expensive shipping around the world. Then when the bike arrives strip it down and remove 1.000 $ + worth of parts, spend another 2-3000 on the parts you feel you need and suddenly you could have saved both time, money and headache buying a second hand Zero Motorcycle in the first place. Road legal and well tested.

The thing is, the parts you remove to upgrade may not even sell. So the seemingly cheap bike might turn into being at least as expensive as any bike we build ourselves. If they offered a frame kit I would swipe my card directly and put in an order. Then I could make the fun bike I need, with the appropriate parts needed to take it into fun land.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Merlin » Oct 31, 2017 11:54 am

When someone would knock my door this evening and tell me I want absolutely same raptor as yours is I would tell him :
Really? Are you sure?
Because down to every part in this bike is 8438€ or 9788$
....

About the specs and pics of this sur ron I have to ask : Wtf are you talking about when this is ~3500 shipped to your door?

A fuckin pedelec have the same price for a crapshit low piss off bicycle parts.

This is a killer dirty whore cheap fun bike :mrgreen:

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by macribs » Oct 31, 2017 12:17 pm

You made my day Merlin. Yes e-bikes are expensive, much more so then we like to admit. I guess you are one of the brave ones that who dared to update your spread sheet for each shopping spree. Me I stopped calculating when needle passed the 4-5K mark.

I am not saying Sur Ron is a bad deal, far from. Just that I don't like spending money on stuff I don't use. I started out with a little box where I kept parts swapped or parts that was wrong due to buyer errors. Now it is a full drawer of crap.

I got an e-bike that is not legal but got pedals. Sur ron is also not legal. But lacks pedals. For the use I can get from sur ron it will only makes sense for me to buy in if I can choose to drop the parts I don't need. Sur ron can't be ridden on pathways. Bike lanes, or on public roads. Legally. And can't be ridden on single tracks, fire lanes or any back country riding. Legally. So for a fun bike it should be, well fun. That means more then 60v. Likely more power too. We will have to wait for more reviews on the peak power. So far sur ron seems a tiny bit anemic and short of breath.

Or so it seems to me. I've got spare parts for at least one more bike, if not more. So I would be very happy to put some of the parts to good use. Ideally and perfect for me would be to just buy the sur ron frame and be done with it. Then I would get a fun bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by dirkdiggler » Oct 31, 2017 12:32 pm

There are some freaking crazy posts on this thread! What are you guys smoking? I can't believe anyone would say this bike is overpriced or a waste of money. Under-perfoming, based on one video or its too loud based on the same? The battery wasn't even fully charged. The front wheel not lifting? How do you even know it was under full throttle, and how do you know that controller has it so the throttle isn't tapered, unlike some junk Chinese controller?
Is this coming from guys that piece together a big box bike with crappy components and think its the best build ever or people that actually know what they are talking about?
Even based on the components of the Sur-ron, you are getting a smoking deal. The front forks alone list for $500, rear shock is at $200, wheels and tires are at least $500. 4 piston hydraulic brakes are cheapest at $250. An EEB frame is $500 and this thing trashes that poorly designed and built crap. Luna Cycle sells a 60v 25ah battery for $650 and this is a 32ah. Motor is fairly cheap at around $200 or so for one comparable. Controller likely $150. Then you'd need to add a Cycle Analyst or something for another $200. I'm sure I've forgotten other parts, but we are up to $3k. There is a reason why LMX bikes sells for 6800 euros with a 60v battery and the Neematic 8000 euros. This is a terrific deal even if you want to trash the controller and motor. You'll still end up ahead, but whatever.
The size also is comparable to a honda cr-250. It's not too small. If you want to ride a 450 size motorcycle, buy a real motorcycle. This is a 100lb light motorcross build not a full size dirt bike. It's the same size as the LMX bike, too.
Also, I can't even get a decent hard-tail MTB for $2,500 and if you don't agree with that than I know you are full of shite!
Crazy people around here!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by Allex » Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm

^^This

I mean it was not that long ago we bought Carbon ebike frames from Canada at 2000USD.
People are still buying bulky frames from Stealth at 1500USD.

And here you have a fully working bike for about 3 grand. Its is frigging cheap. And come on, the sur-ron target audience is those thousands or regular Joes that wants to have fun for cheap.
The companies will never make money of the audience here, because its very niched.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by motomoto » Nov 01, 2017 12:42 am

I've had the bike for a week now.

It is frigging AWESOME !!!

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 01, 2017 2:29 am

dirkdiggler wrote:There are some freaking crazy posts on this thread! What are you guys smoking? I can't believe anyone would say this bike is overpriced or a waste of money. Under-perfoming, based on one video or its too loud based on the same? The battery wasn't even fully charged. The front wheel not lifting? How do you even know it was under full throttle, and how do you know that controller has it so the throttle isn't tapered, unlike some junk Chinese controller?
Is this coming from guys that piece together a big box bike with crappy components and think its the best build ever or people that actually know what they are talking about?
Even based on the components of the Sur-ron, you are getting a smoking deal. The front forks alone list for $500, rear shock is at $200, wheels and tires are at least $500. 4 piston hydraulic brakes are cheapest at $250. An EEB frame is $500 and this thing trashes that poorly designed and built crap. Luna Cycle sells a 60v 25ah battery for $650 and this is a 32ah. Motor is fairly cheap at around $200 or so for one comparable. Controller likely $150. Then you'd need to add a Cycle Analyst or something for another $200. I'm sure I've forgotten other parts, but we are up to $3k. There is a reason why LMX bikes sells for 6800 euros with a 60v battery and the Neematic 8000 euros. This is a terrific deal even if you want to trash the controller and motor. You'll still end up ahead, but whatever.
The size also is comparable to a honda cr-250. It's not too small. If you want to ride a 450 size motorcycle, buy a real motorcycle. This is a 100lb light motorcross build not a full size dirt bike. It's the same size as the LMX bike, too.
Also, I can't even get a decent hard-tail MTB for $2,500 and if you don't agree with that than I know you are full of shite!
Crazy people around here!
Just because people don't agree with you about this ebike, doesn't mean they are crazy. I would never buy this item because I am 6ft 6" tall and the frame is to small for me. I also don't like how loud it is, compared to my hub motor ebike , or that this doesn't have pedals. I got $3000 in my ebike that is a 72 volt - 26.4 AH battery with samsung cells , full suspension , and can do 55 mph top speed. It would be illogical for me to spend $3000 on the Sur-ron, then be uncomfortable on its small frame and need to spend another $1000 or more dollars on upgrades to get it to perform similar to my ebike . Then you have the issue of what to do with the parts you took off the Sur-ron and upgraded. Used ebike parts do not sell very well . I had a $ 140 LYEN controller that was like new , and only got $ 70 for it shipped.

I see this Sur-ron as more of a " niche" item.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 01, 2017 2:30 am

motomoto wrote:I've had the bike for a week now.

It is frigging AWESOME !!!
Glad you like it ! Would you agree that riders that are 6ft or taller, would probably be improperly sized for this ebike ?

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 01, 2017 7:58 am

rumme wrote: I also don't like how loud it is, compared to my hub motor ebike , or that this doesn't have pedals. I got $3000 in my ebike that is a 72 volt - 26.4 AH battery with samsung cells , full suspension , and can do 55 mph top speed. It would be illogical for me to spend $3000 on the Sur-ron, then be uncomfortable on its small frame and need to spend another $1000 or more dollars on upgrades to get it to perform similar to my ebike . Then you have the issue of what to do with the parts you took off the Sur-ron and upgraded. Used ebike parts do not sell very well . I had a $ 140 LYEN controller that was like new , and only got $ 70 for it shipped.

I see this Sur-ron as more of a " niche" item.
You have right about the noise. It is too loud (sounds like something is wrong), but they already have fixed this with a revised motor as far as i understood.
Otherwise, in terms of performance it will eat most or any "3kW+" hub motored bikes in terms of torque / Watt.
If you require 200Nm from a QSV3 e.g., it will produce 10kW of heat. Really really poor performance.
I would say if you ride your EEB side by side with such stock SurRon, you will put the EEB to the side because you will miss the handling of the mid-drive.
IMO those heavy hub motors will become more and more a "niche item" because of the poor torque efficiency and unsprung mass.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by rumme » Nov 01, 2017 9:10 am

madin88 wrote:
rumme wrote: I also don't like how loud it is, compared to my hub motor ebike , or that this doesn't have pedals. I got $3000 in my ebike that is a 72 volt - 26.4 AH battery with samsung cells , full suspension , and can do 55 mph top speed. It would be illogical for me to spend $3000 on the Sur-ron, then be uncomfortable on its small frame and need to spend another $1000 or more dollars on upgrades to get it to perform similar to my ebike . Then you have the issue of what to do with the parts you took off the Sur-ron and upgraded. Used ebike parts do not sell very well . I had a $ 140 LYEN controller that was like new , and only got $ 70 for it shipped.

I see this Sur-ron as more of a " niche" item.
IMO those heavy hub motors will become more and more a "niche item" because of the poor torque efficiency and unsprung mass.
I disagree. Yes, mid drives will always have a advantage with the gearing choices , but you are forgetting that most people who enter the ebike market, don't need a ton of torque , want simplicity, low noise levels , and longevity . My hub motor may be rated for 3kw , but I regularly pump 5kw-5.5kw thru it, with no ill effects. I don't have to worry about stress on the chain, front sprocket, rear sprocket. I have good torque and that is with me setting my phase amps quite low on my controller { only set to 95 phase} . If I needed more torque , I can easily set the phase amps to 140 .

One other advantage of a mid drive is dealing with flat tires, but that's easy to match on a hub motor if you go tubeless , which is what Ive done.

I do not see hub motors becoming a " niche" or obsolete or being completely replaced by mid drives . If you look at the majority of new ebikes that have come to market in the last 5-10 years, I think 95% of them are hub motor systems. Mid drives are generally way more expensive also....just take a look at the Bosch systems or even the Yamaha systems.

Lets also remember that the BEST selling ebike of all time { Sondors} was a hub motor and he has manufactured a few more ebikes recently, all of which use hub motors. Hub motors are not going obsolete.....in fact they may be getting better, due to better efficiency { not long ago, most D.D. hub motors only were around 79% efficient , now some of them are near 90% efficient} , better manufacturing that allows more torque , and options like adding ferro fluid or heat sinks which allow riders to run a lighter weight 3kw motor up to 6 kw without any ill effects on the motor itself.

As far as this Sur ron goes, I'm glad people are interested in it, but for many of us, it is not a option due to its small frame size, no pedals, loudness, etc. Personally, I wouldn't buy it if it cost $1500 , because it would be useless for my needs/ body type.

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Re: Sur-Ron Light Bee USA group buy

Post by madin88 » Nov 01, 2017 9:48 am

rumme wrote: Lets also remember that the BEST selling ebike of all time { Sondors} was a hub motor and he has manufactured a few more ebikes recently, all of which use hub motors. Hub motors are not going obsolete....
i was talking about the the high losses of DD if you climb hills or do hard accelerations. the sondors has a geared hub motor, no direct drive.
in fact they may be getting better, due to better efficiency { not long ago, most D.D. hub motors only were around 79% efficient , now some of them are near 90% efficient} , better manufacturing that allows more torque , and options like adding ferro fluid or heat sinks which allow riders to run a lighter weight 3kw motor up to 6 kw without any ill effects on the motor itself.
yes the ETA of hub motors isn't generally bad (modern hub's have better peak eta as most middrives), what makes them bad is the ETA at high load/torque and the high mass in the rear wheel. Both things makes them not really suitable for offroad or climbing around.
The copper losses are by a large factor higher compared to a mid-motor with reduction to the rear (-> same as a geared hub).

or with other words: while you could do easily wheelies on a mid-drive with 5kW, same bike equipped with a DD even may not at 10kw+ of input power.
So before you have not passed 60% of unloaded speed (just a rough number) the DD is more a toaster than a motor. Thats the point.

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