FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

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Drop Dead Fred
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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Jan 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Drum wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 4:11 pm
Hi Fred,
Could you please copy the website address for the G521 kit and post it? I can't find any webpage showing the unit or kit for sale..

Thanks
Dave
Here you go, sorry spaced it...

http://ouka-ebike.com/bafang-mm-g521500 ... 03094.html

Does look like Ouka is the only one selling it at the moment so it very well maybe a pre order situation.

Fred

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm

it looks dubious to me. Battery in Pic, but further down the page it has a Hailong Case pictured. Plus I hate it when they get the Part number / specs wrong.

I'll wait until I hear from Bafang or a reputable frame builder that they are available. It's no good to me without a frame anyway

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 11, 2018 2:22 am

That's a Chinese company just put the info on their website for selling. and the pictures are 3D not real photos. the m500/600 motor still in mold making process now.
Drop Dead Fred wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 3:42 pm
Animalector wrote:
Jan 09, 2018 8:23 pm
Bafang like to put their products on the website, but they're not yet available for sale. Best example is the Max Ultra 1000W drive, it seemed to me like it was online for well over a year before anything was available for purchase. Same goes for the M600, it's online already, but you can't buy one.. Yet...

If it was available it would be the go, but they would likely need to supply the moulding (frame section) etc. Bafang offer the http://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/c ... -g510.html to mount to any frame configuration

Andy
The web page says M500 but has the same part number as the M600 ... G521.500
Says 50 available... Not sure if it is true or not.

My bad guys, the dog was barking at me to play ball and I forgot to paste it in the text area.

http://ouka-ebike.com/bafang-mm-g521500 ... 03094.html

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 11, 2018 2:28 am

As we known, Bafang no battery matching with their tube. I think we can only develop the battery system by ourselves if want to make the bike pretty look. Bafang told us that we can get the mount bracket before our CNY.
It is possible for us to make the frame after we get the bracket.
Animalector wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm
it looks dubious to me. Battery in Pic, but further down the page it has a Hailong Case pictured. Plus I hate it when they get the Part number / specs wrong.

I'll wait until I hear from Bafang or a reputable frame builder that they are available. It's no good to me without a frame anyway

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Jan 11, 2018 11:12 pm

FREYebikes wrote:
Jan 11, 2018 2:28 am
As we known, Bafang no battery matching with their tube. I think we can only develop the battery system by ourselves if want to make the bike pretty look. Bafang told us that we can get the mount bracket before our CNY.
It is possible for us to make the frame after we get the bracket.
Animalector wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm
it looks dubious to me. Battery in Pic, but further down the page it has a Hailong Case pictured. Plus I hate it when they get the Part number / specs wrong.

I'll wait until I hear from Bafang or a reputable frame builder that they are available. It's no good to me without a frame anyway

Andy
Well that is great news for you and getting the bracket first.

I'm looking forward to Frey Bikes designing the frame and getting our input!

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by starky_boi » Jan 13, 2018 7:42 am

With EU laws I'm getting more and more interested in buying a "road legal" ebike, and for this you would need a EU certificate of conformity. I guess with the use of the Bafang M500 (250W) that would be possible.

Otherwise, the AM1000 seems like a really good base to start with, and battery options are already perfect for me. Just lacks the "road legal" detail over here in France.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drum » Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm

When designing the rear suspension, keep the bearings for the main swing arm as wide apart as possible, to reduce the maximum force on them and keep the back end as stiff as possible.
Three reasons:
-The chain forces on e-bikes are greater than normal bikes, and there are reports of frames bending sideways due to chain tension;
-It is nicer to ride a bike that feels "solid" than one that feels "flexy".. more confidence inspiring;
-Reducing the forces on the bearings will help them last longer, reducing future maintenance requirements.

I have seen several "mountain bike" frames where the rear suspension bearings have been close together, with no reason not to place them further apart.. bad design. Perhaps the designers thought all forces were neatly aligned in the bike and there would not be any significant side force on the rear suspension.. maybe on narrow-tyred road bikes ridden on smooth surfaces that is reasonable, but mountain bikes can experience very significant side force on the rear wheel when being ridden hard, and the frame needs to be designed to resist these forces.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Jan 17, 2018 10:08 pm

Drum wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm
When designing the rear suspension, keep the bearings for the main swing arm as wide apart as possible, to reduce the maximum force on them and keep the back end as stiff as possible.
Three reasons:
-The chain forces on e-bikes are greater than normal bikes, and there are reports of frames bending sideways due to chain tension;
-It is nicer to ride a bike that feels "solid" than one that feels "flexy".. more confidence inspiring;
-Reducing the forces on the bearings will help them last longer, reducing future maintenance requirements.

I have seen several "mountain bike" frames where the rear suspension bearings have been close together, with no reason not to place them further apart.. bad design. Perhaps the designers thought all forces were neatly aligned in the bike and there would not be any significant side force on the rear suspension.. maybe on narrow-tyred road bikes ridden on smooth surfaces that is reasonable, but mountain bikes can experience very significant side force on the rear wheel when being ridden hard, and the frame needs to be designed to resist these forces.
Hey Drum,

I would be curious to know if the 148mm x 12mm boost spacing and axles are part of the reason to deal with side force? I only ask because I noticed a significant difference in stiffness when I went to a 140mm x 12mm rear frame on my Ellsworth Epiphany.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by tumich » Jan 18, 2018 6:42 am

I am waiting too for new M600 full suspension.
I'd like to see new Bafang 500W motor with suspension similar like Haibike Nduro. I mean front suspension 180mm. Battery 600-800Wh inside downtube in the frame and optional additional 400-600Wh on the frame (modular system).
Haibike launched it but only for non suspension frames.
Image
My ebikes:
1. Ebike with Bosch CX
2. Cargo ebike with custom 4,5kWh battery and Bafang Ultra Drive 1000W
3. Treking bike with 250W PAS and 34Ah battery

Cheap, new, oryginal li-ion cells 18650 up to 3500mAh from 1,09$/each!-> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=61608

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drum » Jan 18, 2018 5:28 pm

"I would be curious to know if the 148mm x 12mm boost spacing and axles are part of the reason to deal with side force? I only ask because I noticed a significant difference in stiffness when I went to a 140mm x 12mm rear frame on my Ellsworth Epiphany."

Hi DDFred, I guess as tyres get wider the chainline has to move further out and the chainstays move further apart, requiring the wider hub. The bolted or large diameter through axle would add a lot more stability than QR rear axle allows at the rear, and if the extra width at the front is used wisely to design a strong and stiff pivot area, the whole back end will feel (and be) much stiffer.

Tumich: There is another manufacturer (I think Focus, but not sure) offering e-MTBs with a 400 Watt-Hour battery inbuilt, and a separate clip-on 400Wh battery that can be added externally for longer rides. This allows a lighter / cheaper base bike for those people who only ride a couple of hours, and an above-average capacity optional at extra cost.. not a bad idea.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by tumich » Jan 18, 2018 6:01 pm

Tumich: There is another manufacturer (I think Focus, but not sure) offering e-MTBs with a 400 Watt-Hour battery inbuilt, and a separate clip-on 400Wh battery that can be added externally for longer rides. This allows a lighter / cheaper base bike for those people who only ride a couple of hours, and an above-average capacity optional at extra cost.. not a bad idea.
Focus has optional 2x 360Wh but unfortunately only with Shimano Steps. The worst mid drive ever. You can imagine that it doesn't have toque sensor..

Brose mid drives have optional range extender with 240Wh. So total could be teoreticaly 890Wh.
https://youtu.be/2gQNAt4qi9o?t=2m12s
Sounds good but Brose is good only on paper (in my opinion it has about 70% of Bosch CX power, despite the fact that declare 90Nm versus 75Nm (Bosch).
Maybe Brose S Drive will be improved.

The one thing which looks not good for me in Bafang M600 middrive is "Light Drive Capacity (DCV/W) - 6V/3W.
All Bosch after 2017 have optional 12V and even 35W power. I have headlights dedicated for 12V and it's the best front light available right now. (900 lumens and legal with law in Eu roads).
My ebikes:
1. Ebike with Bosch CX
2. Cargo ebike with custom 4,5kWh battery and Bafang Ultra Drive 1000W
3. Treking bike with 250W PAS and 34Ah battery

Cheap, new, oryginal li-ion cells 18650 up to 3500mAh from 1,09$/each!-> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=61608

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Jan 18, 2018 6:41 pm

Frey: what do you plan to do about the internal battery? or are you planning to make it an external battery?

If it is internal, what battery pack / housing are you planning on using? is there a modular case available that will fit inside a frame? If yes, can you offer a link please?

Thanks

Andy Oudyn

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 19, 2018 3:37 am

We considerate to design the suspension construction seriously especially to use a big power mid drive motor than EU standard 250W. it is a big force by the side. that's the reason we use the type of rear suspension with a solid rear body on AM1000 with 1000W mid power.
Also we are still thinking about what construction to design on m600 motor with 500W power, there are few example for us to study. As you known, most mid drive motor with related 250W power, Giant Full E with Yamaho is 500W.
Drum wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm
When designing the rear suspension, keep the bearings for the main swing arm as wide apart as possible, to reduce the maximum force on them and keep the back end as stiff as possible.
Three reasons:
-The chain forces on e-bikes are greater than normal bikes, and there are reports of frames bending sideways due to chain tension;
-It is nicer to ride a bike that feels "solid" than one that feels "flexy".. more confidence inspiring;
-Reducing the forces on the bearings will help them last longer, reducing future maintenance requirements.

I have seen several "mountain bike" frames where the rear suspension bearings have been close together, with no reason not to place them further apart.. bad design. Perhaps the designers thought all forces were neatly aligned in the bike and there would not be any significant side force on the rear suspension.. maybe on narrow-tyred road bikes ridden on smooth surfaces that is reasonable, but mountain bikes can experience very significant side force on the rear wheel when being ridden hard, and the frame needs to be designed to resist these forces.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 19, 2018 3:40 am

Really nice looking frame , and good design with a standard integrated battery down tube with an additional bottle type battery as option to get a longer range.
tumich wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 6:42 am
I am waiting too for new M600 full suspension.
I'd like to see new Bafang 500W motor with suspension similar like Haibike Nduro. I mean front suspension 180mm. Battery 600-800Wh inside downtube in the frame and optional additional 400-600Wh on the frame (modular system).
Haibike launched it but only for non suspension frames.
Image

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 19, 2018 3:46 am

Thank you for your helpful info.
tumich wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Tumich: There is another manufacturer (I think Focus, but not sure) offering e-MTBs with a 400 Watt-Hour battery inbuilt, and a separate clip-on 400Wh battery that can be added externally for longer rides. This allows a lighter / cheaper base bike for those people who only ride a couple of hours, and an above-average capacity optional at extra cost.. not a bad idea.
Focus has optional 2x 360Wh but unfortunately only with Shimano Steps. The worst mid drive ever. You can imagine that it doesn't have toque sensor..

Brose mid drives have optional range extender with 240Wh. So total could be teoreticaly 890Wh.
https://youtu.be/2gQNAt4qi9o?t=2m12s
Sounds good but Brose is good only on paper (in my opinion it has about 70% of Bosch CX power, despite the fact that declare 90Nm versus 75Nm (Bosch).
Maybe Brose S Drive will be improved.

The one thing which looks not good for me in Bafang M600 middrive is "Light Drive Capacity (DCV/W) - 6V/3W.
All Bosch after 2017 have optional 12V and even 35W power. I have headlights dedicated for 12V and it's the best front light available right now. (900 lumens and legal with law in Eu roads).

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 19, 2018 3:48 am

Hi Andy, we are planning to develop a internal battery, will check about the Bafang down tube firstly, to check whether it is valuable to use or not.
Animalector wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 6:41 pm
Frey: what do you plan to do about the internal battery? or are you planning to make it an external battery?

If it is internal, what battery pack / housing are you planning on using? is there a modular case available that will fit inside a frame? If yes, can you offer a link please?

Thanks

Andy Oudyn

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Jan 19, 2018 4:16 am

So are you saying that bafang will supply the down tube but not an internal battery?.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Shilah » Jan 19, 2018 6:40 am

I will buy a e-bike with bafang only if it remains an open system with open battery.
For modern geometry you can see Fantic bike with 14, 16 or 18 cm travel excursion and a large battery not integrated.
http://fantic-bikes.com/it/

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Jan 19, 2018 7:08 am

What do you mean by open system? If you mean that you have the choice to build you own battery, well those 'external' battery packs are no different to an internal battery, they are still custom designed specifically for that frame/brand.

External or internal I don't really care. Internal seems to be the way most manufactures are going. But that's because Shimano and Bosch have done the hard work for them and provide pre-made integrated battery packs

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Shilah » Jan 19, 2018 9:41 am

I want the possibility of build or change the battery as I like. Only with bafang I can do it.
Fantic is an example of a modern frame. It has a 29 front wheel and a 27,5 + rear wheel.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » Jan 22, 2018 11:38 pm

Interesting info.
Can you tell what's the advantage with a 29" front wheel + 27.5+ rear wheel? and what's the tire size to match for front and rear wheel?
And what travel to fit for front 29" and rear 27.5+ ?
Shilah wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 9:41 am
I want the possibility of build or change the battery as I like. Only with bafang I can do it.
Fantic is an example of a modern frame. It has a 29 front wheel and a 27,5 + rear wheel.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Shilah » Jan 23, 2018 3:13 pm

In this configuration the bike is faster in downhill.
They use a rear 27,5+ with 2.80" and a front 29 with 2.40".
Rear 27,5+ is good for climbing.
14,16 and 18 cm of travel suspension for three different kind of e-bike with different use.
You can try with the Ultra bafang model.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by tumich » Jan 23, 2018 6:25 pm

It won't be downhill frame. I think that 2x 27,5" will be the best option.
My ebikes:
1. Ebike with Bosch CX
2. Cargo ebike with custom 4,5kWh battery and Bafang Ultra Drive 1000W
3. Treking bike with 250W PAS and 34Ah battery

Cheap, new, oryginal li-ion cells 18650 up to 3500mAh from 1,09$/each!-> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=61608

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Feb 13, 2018 2:37 am

FREYebikes wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 3:48 am
Hi Andy, we are planning to develop a internal battery, will check about the Bafang down tube firstly, to check whether it is valuable to use or not.
Animalector wrote:
Jan 18, 2018 6:41 pm
Frey: what do you plan to do about the internal battery? or are you planning to make it an external battery?

If it is internal, what battery pack / housing are you planning on using? is there a modular case available that will fit inside a frame? If yes, can you offer a link please?

Thanks

Andy Oudyn
Hey Frey eBikes, check out the review of the Turbo Levo. It shows how good a hidden battery can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkM30phmK0E

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