FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

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hoojsn   1 W

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by hoojsn » Apr 01 2018 3:46am

FREYebikes wrote:
Mar 11 2018 2:41am
News from FREY: We have ordered a m500 set to make sample bike firstly. The motor should be deliveried in early April replied from Bafang, Now we are have good experience on the full suspension construction design and buliding. Still thinking about what type battery tube and battery case fit for the new model come with m500/600.
Any update on the arrival on the M500/M600? Can you check with Bafang on the following:

M500/M600

1. What is there Peak Watts?
2. Does the Gear come with Steel Gear?
3. The motor casing comes in Aluminum or Magnesium?

Thanks

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 01 2018 11:39pm

Looks like Pivot did a nice job with the integrated battery thing, also using 157 superboost spacing, I'm sure the rear end is real stiff, I have one of their regular unpowered bikes with standard boost and it is just a wonderful bike to ride, love the design. On the Ebike they claim you can pull the battery out in one minute and put a new one in. I don't think I'd ever buy a bike with a proprietary battery but it looks nice the way they did it.

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Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Apr 23 2018 10:58am

Hey Frey Bikes,

Looks like Bosch has now added in a hidden in the frame battery design.

Available summer 2018...

Regards,
Fred
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rumme   100 kW

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by rumme » Apr 23 2018 11:25pm

One thing Ive learned :

Bosch systems = always overpriced.

Ive seen ebikes with Bosch systems, that cost $3000 or more, using 36 volt setups and batterys with pretty low AHs capacity.

Yeah, Bosch systems look nice, but IMHO, they are outrageously overpriced.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Apr 24 2018 12:06am

It's not really the motor that defines the bike cost. In my experience suspension and drivetrain make up the bulk of the cost. For example. Consider around $500 for front suspension, $300 for rear suspension, $400 for drivetrain, and $200 for brakes.. there's half the cost right there. Then you have the motor, frame, wheel set (another big ticket item) assembly and of course profit.

In short, you will not find a quality ebike for $3k regardless of brand because of the cost of the parts. If you do they have chosen inferior parts.

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by 3Dkiller » Apr 24 2018 10:47am

I think most of us prefer the Bafang motors instead of Bosch.. wich is way overpriced for what you truly get. Just like the guy above mention
it.

What we would like to see ?.

Frame battery 17+ ah 50v 14s (Sanyo , Panasonic cells)
IGH <---
Good quality brakes, Good quality suspensions.
27.5 and 29 inch wheels would be great.
Option for onroad and ofroad tires.
Adjustable handlebar stem
3 different frame size.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by rumme » Apr 25 2018 5:55pm

Animalector wrote:
Apr 24 2018 12:06am
I
In short, you will not find a quality ebike for $3k regardless of brand because of the cost of the parts. If you do they have chosen inferior parts.

Andy
Disagree....mainly because everyones idea of quality will differ. For most riders, a $1800 RAD ROVER is certainly solid enough quality to perform as they need. A sub 3 thousand dollar ebike can have solid enough quality, at a fair price if the ebike is NOT gonna be used for downhill racing, severe trail riding, jumping ,etc. My $3000 custom made ebike can do 63mph top speed, if I want it to..and has plenty of torque and is very comfortable riding with front and rear adjustable suspension. Sure, it is a copy of a $7000 stealth bomber..and im sure the bomber has some nicer features, but those features did not warrant me spending $4000 more . In fact, my ebike will keep up with a stealth bomber as far as speed. Now, a stealth bomber may be better equipped to do huge jumps and ride over rocks, etc...but I dont have any desire to do that stuff.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Animalector » Apr 25 2018 6:12pm

fair call. But these motors are designed for mountain biking (generally speaking) and if you're climbing a mountain and riding back down again, usually there is a certain level of quality you need to ensure the components will not prematurely fail, or be unsafe. There are cheap forks, that might get up and down again on the track, but how long will they last??

It's always a trade off. My pricing examples were actually 'entry level' Rockshox, you can pay much much more for higher spec parts.

If you're just looking for outright speed, this is not the motor to choose. I do get your point, so I guess it comes down to whether something is fit-for-purpose. Serious mountain bikers 'generally' have to spend more to amke sure the components work as expected, and won't fail over time.

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Apr 26 2018 1:42am

You guys I got the AM1000 for under $3k, not allowed to say how much exactly but also upgraded the fork to the Lyrik. Had my own seat and the only thing I truly upgraded on my own, were the wheels. I prefer Stan's No Tubes and got a set of Sentry Wheels with Hope Pro 4 Boost Hubs. On a side note I took almost 5lbs of rotational weight off! So yes the wheels were not the good but everything else is pretty good. Shimano XT 1 x 11, Dual Piston brakes, 5 spare derailleur hangers.

My desire for an M600 build would be to use a smart app for your phone to control it as I have scratched screens on single track. Got a nice gouge last week in Moab on the Slickrock!

Fred
Animalector wrote:
Apr 25 2018 6:12pm
fair call. But these motors are designed for mountain biking (generally speaking) and if you're climbing a mountain and riding back down again, usually there is a certain level of quality you need to ensure the components will not prematurely fail, or be unsafe. There are cheap forks, that might get up and down again on the track, but how long will they last??

It's always a trade off. My pricing examples were actually 'entry level' Rockshox, you can pay much much more for higher spec parts.

If you're just looking for outright speed, this is not the motor to choose. I do get your point, so I guess it comes down to whether something is fit-for-purpose. Serious mountain bikers 'generally' have to spend more to amke sure the components work as expected, and won't fail over time.

Andy

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Daxxie » May 03 2018 2:19pm

Bafang showed some interesting designs at the China International Bicycle & Motor Fair.

M500 Full suspension

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M500 hardtail

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M800
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Frey, if you can make something that looks this good I would order 10 of each please!
Last edited by Daxxie on May 03 2018 3:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by leelorr » May 03 2018 3:25pm

Those are some beautiful (and stealthy) bikes!

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by hoojsn » May 06 2018 12:12pm

Thanks for photo sharing. The Bike looks wonderful and I am itch over to add them to my collection.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by 18650 » May 09 2018 3:09am

@FREYbikes,

will there be a street legal version for the EU, with a certificate of conformity? i.e. can the 600W motor be changed for the 500W for the EU?

How is progress on the new frame, it should be available soon?

Best regards,
18650

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Velophil » May 09 2018 4:13am

I am also interested in this bike. I am waiting for information on weight and price ...wait and see...

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » May 11 2018 7:52am

Hi friends, we also attended China bicycle show and come back yesterday.
New full suspension model come with Bafang M500/600 is under producing now. it will be available in late of this month or early June.

We developed the model come with Hailong 52pcs battery firstly considerate all kinds of factors. At present, no good integrated battery solution available to use right now. some are not security and most are small capacity only about 40pcs 18650 cells to load. About the Bafang battery solution, it is also not very ideal we think. the battery tube is not thick and strong enough for mountain bike to our opinion, and the capacity is not big, only 40pcs cell about. and so far not sure whether it works well on lock and unlock.

That's why we go firstly step with present battery solution at beginning, and next few months, we will develop something by ourselves. in this way, we will know how to make it better base on the demands, just as how we develop AM1000. Now base on the frame construction experience, we are confident that we can make out the new bike in reliable performance at beginning.

Here I would like to show some info for our new model, main specs with as following:
Motor: Bafang M500/600 system; 36V 250W for M500 and 48V 500W for M600;
Battery: 48V 14AH for 500W version and 36V 13AH for 250W version as a standard offer;
Battery case come with 52pcs
Front fork: ROCKSHOX YARI 160mm travel, 110 boost;
Rear shock: ROCKSHOX DELUXE RL with 160mm travel for rear part;
Tire: MAXXIS 27.5*2.4" and 27.5*2.8" for choice;
Brake system and group set can base on the market demands.

Following a drawing for you have a general idea. Base on the effective geometry earlier on AM1000, we make the chainline shorter for M500/600, that is about 460mm possible to do. how do you think about it?
QQ图片20180511204837.png

rumme   100 kW

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by rumme » May 11 2018 11:03am

Frey, am looking forward to buying 1 of your ebikes as soon as you get them solidly designed.

I noticed you said the 48 volt system will be 500 watt rated. So basically we are looking at a fairly low powered ebike .

My suggestion : Offer a setup where the owner can buy a ebike, that offers a dual mode, so they can easily push a button to use 500 watts of power for legal road use, and then push another button to offer 1000-2000 watts of power for offroad, trail use.

You must understand, that many of your customers are gonna be from the U.S.A.....and here in America, people are often overweight with a average weight of 180-200 lbs for a adult male. For many of us that wish to buy your ebike, 500 watts of power is not nearly enough , and we need a option for 1000-2000 watts of power . Im a perfect example. I want to buy 1 of your ebikes , but I weigh 210 lbs , and 500 watts of power is not enough for me. If you only offer a ebike with 500 watts max power, you are gonna lose alot of potential customers, including myself.

By offering a dual mode setting of 500 watts on road use and 1000-2000 watts off road use , all the legalities are now on the owner and it is their own responsibility to use the ebike according to their local laws and individual needs.

Also, offer a 48 volt/ 20 AH battery pack option for a little more money. Restricting your ebike to 500 watts and a 14 AH battery pack , will hurt your sales potential IMHO.

I think alot of people wont mind paying a few hundred more dollars, to have a upgraded 20 AH - 48 volt battery pack that is capable of putting out 40 amps max to a mid drive motor that can handle 20 second bursts of 1000-2000 watts of power when its needed. If you can design this type of power in a clean sleek looking ebike, with decent suspension
{ not the best, but not the worst} and keep total price between $2000- $3000 shipped, I think you will have a big seller. The mid drive ebike market, is still waiting for a solid performing and good looking ebike to come to the masses at a fair price. Most of the BOSCH, YAMAHA mid drive ebikes are just to expensive with their $3500- $8000 price tags, so this is what you are competing with .

As far as designing a 36 volt ebike AND a 48 volt ebike , why not just stick with the 48 volt battery system ? IMHO, 36 volts is underpowered AND most buyers are gonna be happier with MORE voltage and capacity . Ive never met a ebiker that said to me " GEE, I WISH I WOULDA WENT WITH A BATTERY PACK THAT HAD LESS VOLTAGE, LESS POWER AND LESS CAPACITY" .

48 volt battery should be the standard , especially for us OVERWEIGHT American buyers.

Just a friendly suggestion.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by leelorr » May 11 2018 1:09pm

Do you have the specs for the weight and the price yet, or maybe a link to them?
To be honest, with the bike in this initial state (500 watts, standard frame mounted "non-hidden" battery, etc), I don't see enough difference between this bike and the AM1000 to justify buying it instead of the AM1000 with the higher power level unless this bike is much lighter or less money.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by rumme » May 11 2018 2:27pm

One other thought. It would be great, if you could manufacture the battery pack, so the plastic shell can easily be taken off and the LI-ION batteries can be individually replaced if 1 or more of them go bad/ malfunction. To many battery packs may only have or 2 cells go bad, and the whole battery pack gets scrapped because its to difficult to replace those 1 or 2 cells in the pack.

Frey, dont be in a rush to bring a mid drive ebike to market, Keep getting advice and thinking out designs/ improvements so that when production is finally ready, you are 100% confident you have a design that is cutting edge , user friendly , great power/torque/capacity at a fair price for the masses. The mid drive ebike market is CRYING for this.

As you can see, there is alot of interest in what you are trying to do, and we are more then happy to tell you what we want in a mid drive ebike at a fair price.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by FREYebikes » May 11 2018 10:15pm

Hi rumme,

Thank you for your commends. From your description, I think you prefer a big power system like our AM1000 has the Ultra 1000W come with 48V 21AH. the new M500/600 is not so big as 1000W power, it aim at 250-500W with a lighter and smaller design compare with 1000W Ulltra. for good power demand, AM1000 is still the first choice.

We try to make some balance between weight, performance and cost.
At the same time, we are developing a better integrated bike with a good capacity in coming 3 months.
We are not in rush, we just do what we can do present and coming months.

Thank you for all your attentions and advice. We are listening and checking what possible to do for us. and how a good bike that we can develop out and supply to the market.
rumme wrote:
May 11 2018 11:03am
Frey, am looking forward to buying 1 of your ebikes as soon as you get them solidly designed.

I noticed you said the 48 volt system will be 500 watt rated. So basically we are looking at a fairly low powered ebike .

My suggestion : Offer a setup where the owner can buy a ebike, that offers a dual mode, so they can easily push a button to use 500 watts of power for legal road use, and then push another button to offer 1000-2000 watts of power for offroad, trail use.

You must understand, that many of your customers are gonna be from the U.S.A.....and here in America, people are often overweight with a average weight of 180-200 lbs for a adult male. For many of us that wish to buy your ebike, 500 watts of power is not nearly enough , and we need a option for 1000-2000 watts of power . Im a perfect example. I want to buy 1 of your ebikes , but I weigh 210 lbs , and 500 watts of power is not enough for me. If you only offer a ebike with 500 watts max power, you are gonna lose alot of potential customers, including myself.

By offering a dual mode setting of 500 watts on road use and 1000-2000 watts off road use , all the legalities are now on the owner and it is their own responsibility to use the ebike according to their local laws and individual needs.

Also, offer a 48 volt/ 20 AH battery pack option for a little more money. Restricting your ebike to 500 watts and a 14 AH battery pack , will hurt your sales potential IMHO.

I think alot of people wont mind paying a few hundred more dollars, to have a upgraded 20 AH - 48 volt battery pack that is capable of putting out 40 amps max to a mid drive motor that can handle 20 second bursts of 1000-2000 watts of power when its needed. If you can design this type of power in a clean sleek looking ebike, with decent suspension
{ not the best, but not the worst} and keep total price between $2000- $3000 shipped, I think you will have a big seller. The mid drive ebike market, is still waiting for a solid performing and good looking ebike to come to the masses at a fair price. Most of the BOSCH, YAMAHA mid drive ebikes are just to expensive with their $3500- $8000 price tags, so this is what you are competing with .

As far as designing a 36 volt ebike AND a 48 volt ebike , why not just stick with the 48 volt battery system ? IMHO, 36 volts is underpowered AND most buyers are gonna be happier with MORE voltage and capacity . Ive never met a ebiker that said to me " GEE, I WISH I WOULDA WENT WITH A BATTERY PACK THAT HAD LESS VOLTAGE, LESS POWER AND LESS CAPACITY" .

48 volt battery should be the standard , especially for us OVERWEIGHT American buyers.

Just a friendly suggestion.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by tinasdude » May 12 2018 7:10pm

Frey, how many amps is the m600W 500W motor. Also please make it 52v compatable. Many of us already have 52v batteries.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by starky_boi » May 14 2018 10:53am

To be on par with the current high end market, I think the ~3500$ configuration should look something like this :

RockShox Lyrik 160mm front
RockShox Deluxe RT3 160mm back
Magura MT7 203mm front, 180mm back
Sram EX1 groupset (for longevity and power transfer)
Schwalbe Nobby Nic Evo 75-584 or MAXXIS Rekon+ 27.5*2.8"
48v 14ah battery (in-tube design) with replacable cells if possible
Bafang M600 500W with software provided to make custom settings (and possibly make a 250W EU-legal mode)

This is just the golden ticket (for me, and I guess anyone in Europe), it allows almost any type of riding and would be enjoyable in the streets and on rough trails.

Then a bonus would be a clean paintjob like black with red accents (painted, no stickers) and allow for a no-branding, stealthy look.

I don't mind the current back suspension geometry but I've been using a full sus bike with a Horst link, that works great and seems lighter.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by Cruncher123 » May 18 2018 9:53pm

@Frey

Please don't bother with a non-integated battery or a 36v system. It wil be obsolete as soon as it is released- look at the direction the market is going - higher capacity batteries (Bulls offers 600w fully integrated Brose E-Stream system, BH EasyMotion is offering 720w fully integrated w/21700 cells on their Atom X Lynx/Brose line and of course the Bosch 500w powertube that some allow to add second battery for more range, etc).

Focus on becoming a manufacturer that offers a top-notch bike that undercuts on price. If I were you, I'd buy a Specialized Turbo Levo (or Merida/Moustache etc) and do my best to copy it, but adding a bigger motor and at least a 600-700w 48v battery. Figure out this and you will see a large demand!

Otherwise, don't bother as you will be stuck competing against all the rest of the Chinese companies selling the same/similar second-tier product. Why build a bike that will soon be obsolete and that can only be sold on price?

Do not focus on Euro specs, as few outside the European Union will buy it. The Europeans already have many choices for low-power bikes anyway. Frankly, the only reason why we know about Frey is because you offer a decently-spec'ed 48v 1000w Ultra full suspension emtb, of which there are very few competitors.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by rumme » May 19 2018 11:57am

I agree with the above post for the most part. If you can manufacture a nice looking mid drive ebike with decent components and allow it to have 1000 watts power { or more with a dual switch to EASILY choose on road riding and off road riding...dont make it programmable where the owner has to hook it up to a laptop or some app } with a 48 volt/ 18-28 AH battery capable of 30-40 amp burst output, and sell it for $2999 or less DELIVERED, then you will have something your competitors have not been able to provide to the ebike market so far.

IMHO, this new ebike, does not need to have alot of gearing options. Stick to a simple 7 speed gearing setup , offer it in at least 2 or 3 frame sizes , 2 or 3 color options , with tubeless 2-3" wide tires , 10-12 gauge spokes , and a handlebar that is nicely adjustable forward and backwards and in height, to adjust for riders different riding styles.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by 999zip999 » May 19 2018 3:33pm

10ga spokes need a moped rim and not a bicycle rim. So you want a moto rim.

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Re: FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

Post by dalysea » May 24 2018 4:27pm

rumme wrote:
Mar 16 2018 6:35am

Integrated looks so much sleeker, but then it is proprietary and when it comes time to replace the battery pack, you must usually buy 1 specific special made battery , which costs more and can sometimes be discontinued due to newer designs.

IMHO, the best situation is a integrated battery which is sleek , has around 20 AHS of capacity, and design the battery case so it can easily be disassembles and the owner can replace individual cells that may go bad or replace all the cells and reuse the battery hardcase over again.
This is an interesting idea that Ivy and I discussed when she was here in Monterey. There is an inherent tradeoff between the stealth and sleek appearance of an integrated battery and on the other side having as sturdy a frame as possible, the ability to use non-proprietary batteries, and the option to have a larger battery for longer trips.

But what you talk about here I think is a good solution.
1. You start with a sturdy frame that can actually be used on rough downhills.
2. A portion of the tube allows for an integrated, lightweight battery for the stealth folks and the short trip folks.
3. Because the integration of the battery case within the frame is proprietary, you make the top side of the battery case removable.
4. This allows you to a) replace the internal battery pack as needed without replacing the whole case and b) put an extended battery pack inside the proprietary case for longer trips.

Essentially a battery similar to what you use on the AM1000, but shallower so you have more frame sturdiness AND more stealth, but then with a removable top piece that can be swapped out with an expansion piece to allow a larger battery pack inside:
(Basically you are de-coupling the battery "shell" that attaches/locks to the frame and protects the battery pack inside from the battery pack itself which are the cells and BMS all heat-shrinked together inside the case. That way you can have two battery packs and only one configurable battery case. Is this better than having two completely separate batteries? I tend to think so, but I build my own battery packs, so obviously it would be significant savings for DIYers like me.)

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Regards,
Sean
Orinda, CA

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