PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $599, Watch Display

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LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 08 2020 4:32pm

Willing to help with those tests with our proto bike. It has seen up to 22kw peaks without sweating
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Dec 31 2019 12:47am
Four mosfets on each side of a phase, rated at 169A each.
So, yes, 676A total peak can be done. With 100v mosfets used rated at 240A, each phase can output 960A peak. Battery current can be bumped correspondingly. I will see if there is enough demand to do that. For now, 130v maybe 140v and 200A/600A combo looks reasonable for the application. I have no way to test beyond that at the moment but I see no reason why it can’t be done. I have to subscribe some serious testers to validate those power levels before it can be put in production.

Dimensions are 225x48x94mm. Probably the most compact size on the market today for the power it can deliver. It is likely the lightest as well. I will post the final weight a bit later.
j bjork wrote:
Dec 30 2019 8:38am
Looks interesting :)
But for now it is 400 phase A and 200 batt A?
Something like 600 phase A possible it the future?
What are the dimentions?

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 08 2020 4:39pm

I have a few testers for different applications (not only bike) now but they have lower/sub 100v setups. For the bike application, I would like to also test pushing higher voltage, like 130v at least.

I've tested it myself on a bike with 26s pack (109v max) but need to validate higher voltages potentially to 140 or 150v. Basically, stress test it.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 08 2020 4:32pm
Willing to help with those tests with our proto bike. It has seen up to 22kw peaks without sweating
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Dec 31 2019 12:47am
Four mosfets on each side of a phase, rated at 169A each.
So, yes, 676A total peak can be done. With 100v mosfets used rated at 240A, each phase can output 960A peak. Battery current can be bumped correspondingly. I will see if there is enough demand to do that. For now, 130v maybe 140v and 200A/600A combo looks reasonable for the application. I have no way to test beyond that at the moment but I see no reason why it can’t be done. I have to subscribe some serious testers to validate those power levels before it can be put in production.

Dimensions are 225x48x94mm. Probably the most compact size on the market today for the power it can deliver. It is likely the lightest as well. I will post the final weight a bit later.
j bjork wrote:
Dec 30 2019 8:38am
Looks interesting :)
But for now it is 400 phase A and 200 batt A?
Something like 600 phase A possible it the future?
What are the dimentions?

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 16 2020 1:42pm

Currently running 24s packs at 100.8V max but could modify cell arrangement to 28s and keep the same cell total at 336 cells to make this happen. Any updates for our preorders?
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 08 2020 4:39pm
I have a few testers for different applications (not only bike) now but they have lower/sub 100v setups. For the bike application, I would like to also test pushing higher voltage, like 130v at least.

I've tested it myself on a bike with 26s pack (109v max) but need to validate higher voltages potentially to 140 or 150v. Basically, stress test it.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 08 2020 4:32pm
Willing to help with those tests with our proto bike. It has seen up to 22kw peaks without sweating
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Dec 31 2019 12:47am
Four mosfets on each side of a phase, rated at 169A each.
So, yes, 676A total peak can be done. With 100v mosfets used rated at 240A, each phase can output 960A peak. Battery current can be bumped correspondingly. I will see if there is enough demand to do that. For now, 130v maybe 140v and 200A/600A combo looks reasonable for the application. I have no way to test beyond that at the moment but I see no reason why it can’t be done. I have to subscribe some serious testers to validate those power levels before it can be put in production.

Dimensions are 225x48x94mm. Probably the most compact size on the market today for the power it can deliver. It is likely the lightest as well. I will post the final weight a bit later.
j bjork wrote:
Dec 30 2019 8:38am
Looks interesting :)
But for now it is 400 phase A and 200 batt A?
Something like 600 phase A possible it the future?
What are the dimentions?

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 16 2020 2:18pm

Yes, that would be a good test scenario. With the present firmware limits, you should be able go as high as 33s fully charged and I would like to stress test with that set up but 28s would be good as well. Preorders are pouring in, and I am trying to stay low to slow it down until the production is in the full swing.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 16 2020 1:42pm
Currently running 24s packs at 100.8V max but could modify cell arrangement to 28s and keep the same cell total at 336 cells to make this happen. Any updates for our preorders?


LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 16 2020 7:42pm

Let us know if we can do anything to help! We can start cell re-arrangement early if we get an ETA. PM us with any details!
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 16 2020 2:18pm
Yes, that would be a good test scenario. With the present firmware limits, you should be able go as high as 33s fully charged and I would like to stress test with that set up but 28s would be good as well. Preorders are pouring in, and I am trying to stay low to slow it down until the production is in the full swing.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 16 2020 1:42pm
Currently running 24s packs at 100.8V max but could modify cell arrangement to 28s and keep the same cell total at 336 cells to make this happen. Any updates for our preorders?


Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 17 2020 12:30pm

Testers get the priority ;). Let me know what your target motor is, and what battery current you will end up having after the re-arrangement.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 16 2020 7:42pm
Let us know if we can do anything to help! We can start cell re-arrangement early if we get an ETA. PM us with any details!
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 16 2020 2:18pm

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 17 2020 1:34pm

Original motor is a qs205 50h v3 3t. It has been heavily modified, well beyond the standard mods found for diy community. Motor has taken 22kw peaks without sweating. Just got new tires rated for 130mph to finally be able to continually load test as she outran her rubber rating on dirt bike knobbies without blinking. Battery would be rated at 150 amps continuous with arrangement at 28s for almost 120v hot off charger.

Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 17 2020 12:30pm
Testers get the priority ;). Let me know what your target motor is, and what battery current you will end up having after the re-arrangement.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 16 2020 7:42pm
Let us know if we can do anything to help! We can start cell re-arrangement early if we get an ETA. PM us with any details!
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 16 2020 2:18pm

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 17 2020 2:33pm

I am running one of the prototypes in FOC mode at 108v max on a bike with this exact same motor (nothing modified though). I've run other controllers on it before but the prototype runs extra quiet and smooth on acceleration and regen braking. It also seems to have higher top speed. I can hit 65mph with ease without field weakening and I didn't attempt to go faster than that. My bike battery can do 80A max though and phase current set at 300A.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 17 2020 1:34pm
Original motor is a qs205 50h v3 3t. It has been heavily modified, well beyond the standard mods found for diy community. Motor has taken 22kw peaks without sweating. Just got new tires rated for 130mph to finally be able to continually load test as she outran her rubber rating on dirt bike knobbies without blinking. Battery would be rated at 150 amps continuous with arrangement at 28s for almost 120v hot off charger.

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 17 2020 3:21pm

Only 65? Strange as square wave controller is the one that hit 85mph easy. Are you sure you have the 3t winding? Most popular is 4t and would better correlate with the speeds you have seen. Either way we would love to see what we can make your controller really do!
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 17 2020 2:33pm
I am running one of the prototypes in FOC mode at 108v max on a bike with this exact same motor (nothing modified though). I've run other controllers on it before but the prototype runs extra quiet and smooth on acceleration and regen braking. It also seems to have higher top speed. I can hit 65mph with ease without field weakening and I didn't attempt to go faster than that. My bike battery can do 80A max though and phase current set at 300A.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 17 2020 1:34pm
Original motor is a qs205 50h v3 3t. It has been heavily modified, well beyond the standard mods found for diy community. Motor has taken 22kw peaks without sweating. Just got new tires rated for 130mph to finally be able to continually load test as she outran her rubber rating on dirt bike knobbies without blinking. Battery would be rated at 150 amps continuous with arrangement at 28s for almost 120v hot off charger.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by j bjork » Jan 17 2020 3:47pm

Really?
To me 65mph (about 110km/h?) already sounds a lot with 80A

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... 300_0.03_V

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 17 2020 4:45pm

Yep, just checked, I have 5T and I have a 17 inch rim running Shinkos sr241. It was built for torque more than for speed for the reasons I mention below.

Going 85mph on any bike, especially lighter ebike, even with moto tires, would be unjustified risk in my book. When you are in a car, you have a structure around you that will absorb some of the energy on impact. On a bike, it would be your skull and limbs. Unless you are on a race track and or you do this for living.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 17 2020 3:21pm
Only 65? Strange as square wave controller is the one that hit 85mph easy. Are you sure you have the 3t winding? Most popular is 4t and would better correlate with the speeds you have seen. Either way we would love to see what we can make your controller really do!
Last edited by Powervelocity.com on Jan 18 2020 3:52am, edited 2 times in total.

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 17 2020 10:01pm

We are testing for real world/moto applications. At this point we just say bike as anything with two wheels. It's truly a underweight electric dirtbike. Could easily compete with 250 class if not 450. Safety is always first. All tests are done in full kit. Our test driver is fully licensed and insured and rides a Yamaha liter bike as his daily driver so power handling isnt a concern. Will be taking it to some tracks once the season thaws out in Minnesnowta here too!

One thing to note about the windings though. Total torque is actually the same for all the windings. It's a confusing concept to grasp but we decided that a thicker phase wire was more important in the end and the results have surpassed wildly what we thought we would get out of it. With a high voltage and very little internal resistance we have really found a sweet spot in thermal management and total power output. At this point we have bets that the 130mph tires might not even be enough especially with FOC
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 17 2020 4:45pm
Yep, just checked, I have 5T and I have a 17 inch rim running Skinkos sr241. It was built for torque more than for speed for the reasons I mention below.

Going 85mph on any bike, especially lighter ebike, even with moto tires, would be unjustified risk in my book. When you are in a car, you have a structure around you that will absorb some of the energy on input. On a bike, it would be your skull and limbs. Unless you are on a race track and or you do this for living.
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 17 2020 3:21pm
Only 65? Strange as square wave controller is the one that hit 85mph easy. Are you sure you have the 3t winding? Most popular is 4t and would better correlate with the speeds you have seen. Either way we would love to see what we can make your controller really do!

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 28 2020 6:56pm

One of the controllers from the first production batch put on the scale.
Seems to be pretty close to 1kg plus or minus a few grams.
cont24F.jpg
cont24F.jpg (109.25 KiB) Viewed 1850 times
Last edited by Powervelocity.com on Jan 28 2020 8:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 28 2020 7:07pm

Looks good! The black should help more with heat dissipation
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 28 2020 6:56pm
One of the controllers from the first production batch put on the scale.
Seems to be pretty close 1kg plus or minus a few grams.

cont24F.jpg

Ebuilt   1 W

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by Ebuilt » Jan 29 2020 1:16am

LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 28 2020 7:07pm
Looks good! The black should help more with heat dissipation.
Really? How do you figure? I can think of one reason it wouldn’t. Sure does look slick though.
:bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 29 2020 7:34am

Black absorbs and dissipates heat faster than any other color? Read up on motor modification and you will see every major motor rebuild includes painting the inside of the hubs shell to increase this thermal pathway. Some interesting stuff to read up on but it's why most high power motors are already painted black externally

[q1uote=Ebuilt post_id=1526045 time=1580278615 user_id=59657]
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 28 2020 7:07pm
Looks good! The black should help more with heat dissipation.
Really? How do you figure? I can think of one reason it wouldn’t. Sure does look slick though.
[/quote]

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 29 2020 2:17pm

True, that black dissipates and absorbs heat better than any other color. Black magic of physics!
The opposite goes to the white color.

However, that would be the least of my concern when the thermal interface between the mosfets and heatsink is bad.
In most designs I've seen, much heat can't effectively escape from the body of a mosfet to the heatsink because electric insulators such as kapton tape, etc. has to be used between the mosfets and the heatsink. The heat can't dissipate much via the terminals into the epoxy based board either because the PCB material is a poor heat conductor. That creates a bottleneck substantially decreasing the effectiveness of the heatsink because much heat can't make it to the heatsink in the first place. So the color wouldn't contribute much to anything in those cases.

This is one big reason we went through the trouble of designing a one layer power stage board to allow soldering the surface mounted mosfets directly to a metal core PCB. The thermal conductivity of a metal core board is ~9 times better than regular PCB material such as FR4 and all the bottom surface of the board directly interfaces with a heatsink.

Check this out.
1.png
1.png (309.81 KiB) Viewed 1774 times

Plus, mounting SMD packaged mosfets can be done like this. No more screw driver operation and manual work bolting each mosfet to heatsink:



LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 29 2020 7:34am
Black absorbs and dissipates heat faster than any other color? Read up on motor modification and you will see every major motor rebuild includes painting the inside of the hubs shell to increase this thermal pathway. Some interesting stuff to read up on but it's why most high power motors are already painted black externally

[q1uote=Ebuilt post_id=1526045 time=1580278615 user_id=59657]
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 28 2020 7:07pm
Looks good! The black should help more with heat dissipation.
Really? How do you figure? I can think of one reason it wouldn’t. Sure does look slick though.
[/quote]

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Jan 30 2020 11:42am

:shock: wow that machine must really save some time
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 29 2020 2:17pm
True, that black dissipates and absorbs heat better than any other color. Black magic of physics!
The opposite goes to the white color.

However, that would be the least of my concern when the thermal interface between the mosfets and heatsink is bad.
In most designs I've seen, much heat can't effectively escape from the body of a mosfet to the heatsink because electric insulators such as kapton tape, etc. has to be used between the mosfets and the heatsink. The heat can't dissipate much via the terminals into the epoxy based board either because the PCB material is a poor heat conductor. That creates a bottleneck substantially decreasing the effectiveness of the heatsink because much heat can't make it to the heatsink in the first place. So the color wouldn't contribute much to anything in those cases.

This is one big reason we went through the trouble of designing a one layer power stage board to allow soldering the surface mounted mosfets directly to a metal core PCB. The thermal conductivity of a metal core board is ~9 times better than regular PCB material such as FR4 and all the bottom surface of the board directly interfaces with a heatsink.

Check this out.

1.png


Plus, mounting SMD packaged mosfets can be done like this. No more screw driver operation and manual work bolting each mosfet to heatsink:



LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 29 2020 7:34am
Black absorbs and dissipates heat faster than any other color? Read up on motor modification and you will see every major motor rebuild includes painting the inside of the hubs shell to increase this thermal pathway. Some interesting stuff to read up on but it's why most high power motors are already painted black externally

[q1uote=Ebuilt post_id=1526045 time=1580278615 user_id=59657]
LamereCycles wrote:
Jan 28 2020 7:07pm
Looks good! The black should help more with heat dissipation.
Really? How do you figure? I can think of one reason it wouldn’t. Sure does look slick though.
[/quote]


district9prawn   1 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by district9prawn » Jan 31 2020 8:01am

Those are some fine looking boards!

Have you seen the zero speed sensorless HFI (high frequency injection) feature in the latest firmware?
Neu 8057 6kW left hand drive hardtail with 18 fet Vesc: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96754

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by fechter » Jan 31 2020 11:06am

Looking good. I think that would be good fit for a Sur-ron. Can't wait to see some real-world test results.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 31 2020 11:20am

Yep, saw it. Very exciting. Sensorless should now have smooth start, almost like with sensors, on most motors.
I'll make sure to update the firmware before shipping out the first batch of controllers.
district9prawn wrote:
Jan 31 2020 8:01am
Those are some fine looking boards!

Have you seen the zero speed sensorless HFI (high frequency injection) feature in the latest firmware?

Powervelocity.com   10 kW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 31 2020 11:22am

Other than me riding the bike with the new controller, there are few more serious applications currently being tested.
And more coming. I'll be posting videos as they start coming in.

fechter wrote:
Jan 31 2020 11:06am
Looking good. I think that would be good fit for a Sur-ron. Can't wait to see some real-world test results.

LamereCycles   10 mW

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Re: Preorder. PV NextGen FOC 130v 200/600A 25kw - $499

Post by LamereCycles » Feb 04 2020 12:30pm

Can't wait to see em, and to make some of our own, have our few drones ready for action filming!
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 31 2020 11:22am
Other than me riding the bike with the new controller, there are few more serious applications currently being tested.
And more coming. I'll be posting videos as they start coming in.

fechter wrote:
Jan 31 2020 11:06am
Looking good. I think that would be good fit for a Sur-ron. Can't wait to see some real-world test results.

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Re: Updated: PV NextGen FOC 130v 25kw - $499

Post by John in CR » Feb 05 2020 1:57am

Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 08 2020 4:39pm
I have a few testers for different applications (not only bike) now but they have lower/sub 100v setups. For the bike application, I would like to also test pushing higher voltage, like 130v at least.

I've tested it myself on a bike with 26s pack (109v max) but need to validate higher voltages potentially to 140 or 150v. Basically, stress test it.
I need 2 to drive my 6phase HubMonster powered MadAss that has a 31s pack with which I run a fresh off the charger max voltage of 128V. As long as torque throttle control is great, then I'd run each controller at 150A battery side 250-300A phase current. The motor is well ventilated, so it can handle at least that current. Some guys have run theirs much higher against my recommendations without nearly the cooling I have. I just haven't had controllers capable of more than that current. I'd push it higher temporarily if you want as long as I can see controller temp, because I'd rather run conservative than risk having to change out controllers more than the initial time, as it's pretty involved on this bike.

BTW, I tried to recover my password but have yet to get the email to reset, and the site won't let me proceed with the preorder of 2 controllers without logging in since it recognized my email address JohnCF*****@yahoo.com . You should be able to look me up with that portion of my email since I'm a long-time customer.

If you want me to truly limit test one, I do have a very low inductance v1 speed wind 50mm wide QS273 that's vented and I've pushed it at over 400 battery side amps. I couldn't run it continuously with a 31s pack due to high iron losses, but I could do some short speed bursts. I've never blown a controller at speed anyway, so the real test would be high current and high voltage at partial throttle attacking a mountain road, and I've got a kilometers long 20% continuous grade road that leads to a wind farm on top of the mountain perfect for limit testing anything by accelerating hard out of the switchbacks. The regen better not go out on me, because the scary part is coming back down with mechanical brakes.

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