80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Electric cars, trucks, ATVs, NEVs - things bigger than a motorcycle.
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80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 am

..and 300 models by 2030 :shock:
Volkswagen is stepping up its shift to electric cars and plans to invest more than 20 billion euros ($24 billion) in zero-emission vehicles by 2030 to challenge pioneer Tesla in creating a mass market.

The world’s largest automaker by sales said on Monday it would roll out 80 new electric cars across its multi-brand group by 2025, up from a previous goal of 30, and wanted to offer an electric version of each of its 300 group models by 2030.
http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/201 ... nt-in.html

And batteries....
....We wont let the issue of batteries be taken out of our hands,” emphasizes Müller. He adds that the company will need a battery capacity of more than 150 GWh a year by 2025 solely to fit its own e-fleet with lithium-ion batteries.

To cater for that enormous demand, the Volkswagen Group has initiated an invitation to tender for long-term strategic partnerships for China, Europe and the United States. “We’re talking here about one of the largest procurement projects in our industry’s history, one with a global order volume of more than €50 billion over its term,” states Müller. That was solely for the Group’s high-volume vehicles based on the all-electric architecture.

News of a €10 Billion battery Gigafactory surfaced last year with Salzgitter in the German state of Lower Saxony being a likely location.

VW invested in solid-state battery startup QuantumScape in late 2014 and have publicly stated they expect the technology can deliver 700 km range. VW is also targeting a 66 percent cost reduction by using a single battery module design for all of its electrified vehicles......
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Warren » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am

Yeah. In the last month, every car company has made similar announcements. The impetus comes from governments, in many countries, announcing plans to restrict or ban ICE cars by (pick a date, always after you are out of office). Each storm, fire, flood, famine/mass migration, from here on out, will increase the demand for change. Whether governments, or industry can actually keep the happy motoring dream going is doubtful. But we will most assuredly try.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/09/12/aut ... bs-profit/

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Yes Warren, its seems to be a lot of Marketing/PR spin to gain some credibility in the EV space.
Looking at that article, i wonder if these "Concepts" that were "presented" at the show even actually exist in solid form ?
All the images are definitely CGI, why not actual photos from the stand ?
And even if there is something physical, is it more than a styleing "shell" ? ...any actual running gear installed ?
...and of those "300 models",... How many will be Anything more than "48v mildHybrid" conversions using that Continental developed Altermotor device that was being spruked by Audi etc , a few weeks ago .
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by liveforphysics » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:38 am

Toyota, Honda, the big 3, Mercedes, BMW, jeep, Suzuki, and many more cage mfg are dead men walking already.
Masters of a type of obsolete technology that rapidly is becoming recognized as tragedy of human and animal life that ensures it's own conclusion.


VW and Nissan may live if they drop all ICE development today and just focused on trying to make any product from any of their dozens of luxo-cage/exotic-cage brands that offers a user experience that gets in the ballpark with the driving experience of a modern Tesla AND immediately begin installing a 250kW+ DC fast charger network that is actually useful for traveling.

Nobody will ever care again who used to make the best VCR, and neither will they ever care again about ICE powered contraptions hobbling and farting along spraying toxins as the normal operating function.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Ratking » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:09 am

liveforphysics wrote:Toyota, Honda, the big 3, Mercedes, BMW, jeep, Suzuki, and many more cage mfg are dead men walking already.
Masters of a type of obsolete technology that rapidly is becoming recognized as tragedy of human and animal life that ensures it's own conclusion.


VW and Nissan may live if they drop all ICE development today and just focused on trying to make any product from any of their dozens of luxo-cage/exotic-cage brands that offers a user experience that gets in the ballpark with the driving experience of a modern Tesla AND immediately begin installing a 250kW+ DC fast charger network that is actually useful for traveling.

Nobody will ever care again who used to make the best VCR, and neither will they ever care again about ICE powered contraptions hobbling and farting along spraying toxins as the normal operating function.
The energy density of gasoline is 13 000w/kg, the best batteries are less than 200w/kg. How do you propose that a energy source that is over 1/65th of gasoline can ever take its role? As today, only cars transporting people is doable. Load a Testa with a 2500kg trailer and see what is does. No, my prediction is that oil will be used for a long long time. Our lives depends on it. Unless you have some facts I don't have...

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by liveforphysics » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Ratking wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Toyota, Honda, the big 3, Mercedes, BMW, jeep, Suzuki, and many more cage mfg are dead men walking already.
Masters of a type of obsolete technology that rapidly is becoming recognized as tragedy of human and animal life that ensures it's own conclusion.


VW and Nissan may live if they drop all ICE development today and just focused on trying to make any product from any of their dozens of luxo-cage/exotic-cage brands that offers a user experience that gets in the ballpark with the driving experience of a modern Tesla AND immediately begin installing a 250kW+ DC fast charger network that is actually useful for traveling.

Nobody will ever care again who used to make the best VCR, and neither will they ever care again about ICE powered contraptions hobbling and farting along spraying toxins as the normal operating function.
The energy density of gasoline is 13 000w/kg, the best batteries are less than 200w/kg. How do you propose that a energy source that is over 1/65th of gasoline can ever take its role? As today, only cars transporting people is doable. Load a Testa with a 2500kg trailer and see what is does. No, my prediction is that oil will be used for a long long time. Our lives depends on it. Unless you have some facts I don't have...
Today we accept a cell phone works in your hand, even though it requires billions of sub microscopically visible tiny transistor arrays that a few decades ago would have required a warehouse of mainframe computers that would never fit in your pocket.
It doesn't matter if you understand how the chips in the cellphone went from using kW of power to mW of power and still got faster and more parallel processing pipelines, it all works just the same with or without your human understanding of how.

In the same way, it's not required for you to understand how or why EVs replace all ICE. If humans are around in the coming decades to be able to have discussions like this today, it's due to the generation that created today's approach of digging for anything that burns and lighting it has died off, and the present generation does more than share reasons why they don't understand a sustainable alternative is inevitable if we want to continue enjoying a functional life support system on our amazing shared spaceship.
Last edited by liveforphysics on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by rojitor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:07 pm

I wish all the damn oil of the world to vanish once and for all. The global warming is real. We are so close to the point of no return that I can't believe the human stupidity.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Ratking » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Ratking wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:Toyota, Honda, the big 3, Mercedes, BMW, jeep, Suzuki, and many more cage mfg are dead men walking already.
Masters of a type of obsolete technology that rapidly is becoming recognized as tragedy of human and animal life that ensures it's own conclusion.


VW and Nissan may live if they drop all ICE development today and just focused on trying to make any product from any of their dozens of luxo-cage/exotic-cage brands that offers a user experience that gets in the ballpark with the driving experience of a modern Tesla AND immediately begin installing a 250kW+ DC fast charger network that is actually useful for traveling.

Nobody will ever care again who used to make the best VCR, and neither will they ever care again about ICE powered contraptions hobbling and farting along spraying toxins as the normal operating function.
The energy density of gasoline is 13 000w/kg, the best batteries are less than 200w/kg. How do you propose that a energy source that is over 1/65th of gasoline can ever take its role? As today, only cars transporting people is doable. Load a Testa with a 2500kg trailer and see what is does. No, my prediction is that oil will be used for a long long time. Our lives depends on it. Unless you have some facts I don't have...
Today we accept a cell phone works in your hand, even though it requires billions of sub microscopically visible tiny transistor arrays that a few decades ago would have required a warehouse of mainframe computers that would never fit in your pocket.
It doesn't matter if you understand how the chips in the cellphone went from using kW of power to mW of power and still got faster and more parallel processing pipelines, it all works just the same with or without your human understanding of how.

In the same way, it's not required for you to understand how or why EVs replace all ICE. If humans are around in the coming decades to be able to have discussions like this today, it's due to the generation that created today's approach of digging for anything that burns and lighting it has died off, and the present generation does more than share reasons why they don't understand a sustainable alternative is inevitable if we want to continue enjoying a functional life support system on our amazing shared spaceship.
I fully accept that I don't need to understand how everything works, but there is still a fundamental problem of lack of energy storage, that easily can be understood by everybody. I would love to be wrong, because I have so many plans for electric projects, flying, under and over water, but it is always the same, too heavy battery for what it can provide of energy. I am waiting, have been for many years now, still not convinced that we are there yet. Give it a few more decades at least. But that is maybe your time frame as well

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Punx0r » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:08 am

It isn't complicated.

You can buy an EV with a ~100kWh battery that does ~300miles on a charge. How that compares to the theoretical (not useable) energy density of a petroleum fuel is almost irrelevant.

A current battery (bear in mind the rate at which battery tech is improving) stores much less energy than the fuel tank of an ICE car, but the EV is also much more efficient at using that energy, so the actual difference in performance achieved is much less than the energy density numbers initially indicate.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by The fingers » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:18 am

Refueling time of 5 minutes vs. 5 hours for the EV seems to be a deal breaker for many. Also, was VW goaded into this as a result of diesel gate sanctions? :?
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Warren » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:26 pm

Took the Bolt to a local hot rod show last Saturday. Everybody was friendly, and a few were even curious as to how it worked. Without driving it, it is next to impossible to convey how cool electric drive is. The next day I went to an Electric Drive Week event. The owners were, of course, on board. But not all the spectators were. One guy was clearly wanting an EV. His spouse thought there wasn't enough trunk space in the Tesla S for her golf clubs. :-(

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by liveforphysics » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:39 pm

Energy density is already so useful today, myself and many others travel anywhere we want with EVs.

My DSR recharge stops are generally less than 30min after >100milea of riding at highway speeds. If you have a Tesla, the superchargers make road trips easier and more pleasant than I've ever experienced from any gas station. After road tripping a Model S to Canada and back, it was so much better than any other road trip experience it helped my wife finally give away her stupid Honda CRZ toxin-sprayer-mobile, because neither of us ever wanted the experience of using it again.

The energy density of the best cells today still involves <5% of the cell mass actually being the mass which actively changes oxidation/reduction states, and the rest being the supporting structures (anode/cathode coatings) and current collection.

Already today my wife and I enjoy having only EVs, and if anything we cover more miles and take more road trips than before using ICE.

EV tech today is just beginning the maturation process, and in another decade we will look back and laugh just like we look back and laugh at a decade old cell phone or laptop.

At no point does it require the users to understand or appreciate the nuances between your first laptop and todays best.

Each being is free to live in fear or confusion of the inevitable future of humanity to the limit of their ability to choose to do so. Equally free to embrace a future where life continues on earth for future generations to also have an opportunity to appreciate.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Punx0r wrote: You can buy an EV with a ~100kWh battery that does ~300miles on a charge. How that compares to the theoretical (not useable) energy density of a petroleum fuel is almost irrelevant.
Maybe YOU could buy that EV, but 99% of the population would find it out of their financial reach !
And, Not irrelavent if you want to go 350+ miles urgently ....and god forbid that your.. (expensive beyond reach of 99% of the population)...EV is not already fully charged ! :roll:
...
....A current battery (bear in mind the rate at which battery tech is improving) .......
What rate is that ? ...and what tech improvements are you thinking off ?
Key factors like Energy density seem to have topped out about 10 years ago with the 3400mAh 18650.
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Ratking » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:43 am

Punx0r wrote:It isn't complicated.

You can buy an EV with a ~100kWh battery that does ~300miles on a charge. How that compares to the theoretical (not useable) energy density of a petroleum fuel is almost irrelevant.

A current battery (bear in mind the rate at which battery tech is improving) stores much less energy than the fuel tank of an ICE car, but the EV is also much more efficient at using that energy, so the actual difference in performance achieved is much less than the energy density numbers initially indicate.
You are right it isnt. Here is how it is:

My VW 2L diesel gets 10km per 0,7l. That is 850km per filling.
My brothers new BWM i3 gets 190km on a fully charged battery. If you go above 80km/h that number will plummet. It cannot haul any loads, it does not have any "supercharger" and since Norway has the most electric cars in the whole world, there is not enough charging capacity in cities. Almost all the cars on Norway have a towbar, and that is because we use it. I am about to move, and rebuild the house I bought, so I will be using a trailer weekly.

Only religious electric revolution guys think that electric vehicles are anywhere near replacing gasoline. They cannot see the reality. And for those telling me to just get the new Tesla with the biggest battery, please send me 100 000$ and I will do so. But until then I have to use what works, my trusty old diesel. It does not complain when I load the car and trailer down. No electric car even has that capability today.

No, the truth is that there is no option for people that needs the car for more than going from a to b with only their body and some lightweight baggage. But I am looking forward to the day when that is possible

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by liveforphysics » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:46 pm

Ratking wrote: Only religious electric revolution guys think that electric vehicles are anywhere near replacing gasoline. They cannot see the reality. And for those telling me to just get the new Tesla with the biggest battery, please send me 100 000$ and I will do so. But until then I have to use what works, my trusty old diesel. It does not complain when I load the car and trailer down. No electric car even has that capability today.

No, the truth is that there is no option for people that needs the car for more than going from a to b with only their body and some lightweight baggage. But I am looking forward to the day when that is possible

Ratking- If you're able, perhaps imagine the perspective of today's children. Currently ~4.2Million deaths a year attributed to toxins added to the life support system already.

That's an average of ~11,500 deaths daily, so ~470 deaths per hour, or more than your VW with a trailer could haul away in bodies every few minutes.

When the future generations ask who was accountable, please do tell them about how well your VW diesel and trailer served the world they inherented, and how it was all worth trading everyone's shared life support system in exchange for some stuff being shuffled from here to there.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by dirkdiggler » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:19 pm

There is always that "guy" that needs a vehicle to fulfill some out of the ordinary situation. I hate the comments about, but an EV car can't take me 4,000 miles every day, or can't haul my 10,000 lb tractor trailer. My response is buy a gas car then, but 99% of us don't need something special like that, even those "guys" are probably just BS'ing because they hate the fact an EV doesn't sound cool. (Yeah, I really dig the sound of the cut exhaust at 2 in the morning, you are really cool! About as cool as the guy pumping his bass at the stoplight!) 99% of us drive less than 30 miles a day. 99% of us take one or less road trips longer than 300 miles in a given year. 99% of us don't need to tow anything. 99% of us commute to work as a single driver in a four door vehicle. We really should be driving a motorcycle or riding a bike - but that has different issues.

My experience with driving a Tesla for the past year has shown that I have less range anxiety than I did in a gas vehicle. Only once have I had a day where I thought, I should have charged my vehicle last night. My car says I have 80 miles of range, and I start to worry. My wife's gas car is always on empty and every time I get in it, I think we should stop and get gas, but always, always at a time inconvenient to me. I can tell you the gas station is the place I don't miss at all. I always thought I'd love to have a gas pump at my house - and that's what I finally get with an EV. I lose absolutely no time at all plugging in my car when I get home. It's the same as plugging in your cell phone. How hard is that? I wonder if you had a cell phone that used gas and ran for a week without refueling, but you had to refuel at the gas station taking only five minutes at the pump to get it fully charged, would you be interested? The inconvenience of plugging in your phone at night is much less than having to go someplace to charge it. Same applies to cars.

The other thing that gets me is that people will complain that the supercharger takes a whole hour to charge when they are on a road trip. They want to get out of their car, pump and pee. Then get back in the car and drive off. Their time is too valuable. Do they think about the fact that with a supercharger their gas was technically free? So, that $60 gas purchase that saved them a half hour of time is worth it to them. That's like making $120 a hour after taxes if you think of your time when using a supercharger. Two fill ups at the supercharger just paid for your nights hotel stay. I do see the opposite happen at the local supercharger, where people are using the charger to save $10 of electricty, while sitting in their $100k vehicle - that also makes no sense at all to me. Even if you go back to the time factor, how much time do you save by not having to regularly get gas at the station, how much time do you save by not having to do oil changes or maintenance? I know that time alone makes up for hours upon hours, and If I am inconvenienced on a road trip by sitting at a supercharger for longer than pumping gas, my time in other ways has more than made up for it. I timed my wife one time while getting gas, and she spent around twenty minutes, by the time she found a gas station, pulled in, swiped her card, pumped, got in the car, got out of the car and took the pump out and finally drove off. I pull in the garage, hit the charge button, put the plug in and walk away. Much better way to do it IMHO. I do this once or twice a week, my wife fills up every week or two. I figure I come out far ahead on that one.

Anyhow, drive what you want - I just don't want to breath your air. I have driven a ton of nice cars, but like the Tesla the best. Just don't base your decision on what you think you need 1% of the time. My wife wanted a car that she could go get plants in, I asked her how often she does that - once or twice a year she responded. I find that typical with most consumers. Why buy a car based on that?

As for the big auto - I really am now in the conspiracy group. Maybe it was from watching who killed the electric car, but the big manufacturers, have put out half-assed electric products from day one. Either weird designs or hampered by some other issues. Tesla, who had really no knowledge that wasn't commonly available, has taken everyone to the woodshed. No other new car company in the US has been in business longer than 3 years. I hope the big ones get their asses handed to them on this. I'm not usually a brand homer, but I am on this.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:14 pm

Life is a compromise of many issues.
You have to mix and match various choices that suit you circumstances and appease your consience .
There is a whole spectrum of choices for transport..
..some like to ride around in jacked up 3 ton diesel trucks with smoking ex stacks and gun racks on the back
..some prefer regular sedans or hatchbacks with eccono petrol power
...some choose EV or Hybrid cars
...some prefer a motorbike
..some get by on pedal bikes or Ebikes
..many settle for public transport.
Any way you go, there is always someone who thinks their choice is best for various reasons and are prepared to diss the other choices.
There is even a Pedestrian Activist group who would like even bicycles banned from city areas
But the bottom line is, no one solution suits all situations. Everyones situation and requirements are different.
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by craneplaneguy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:06 pm

My personal way to 'go". is having 3 (all bought used) rigs. A 1 ton 4wd diesel pickup, only driven when I am packing a serious load, the thought of driving it daily just to haul my skinny ass around confounds me, but I see people every day doing just that. I have business concerns that require me to have the rigs I do, so at least I get a write off. And when I need one's capability, I REALLY need it.

A Toyota Rav4, also AWD, only driven when I absolutely need AWD, and living where I do that's a requirement I have to have. Then, the PriusPlugIn, which is what I drive 90%+ of the time, and I am willing to take a chance during the winter making it home (and the resulting humiliation if seen trudging up the road and seen by a neighbor, who also knows I have AWD's....)as it saves me so much money in fuel. I am lucky in having a great insurance carrier and a good record, plus low state registration costs, so for now this makes sense for me. Doing the most with the least is the way I have done things for years, ain't changing now. If I lived in town, and didn't need the 1 ton or the AWD for the mountain, I would for sure just (and still) have the Prius, and drive it less, but for now hauling groceries 15 or 20 miles using my ebike isn't much of an option, though I am using one more and more once I am already in town.

All or most of my neighbors also have AWD rigs, but drive them year round. That would drive me crazy, hauling all that extra weight and mechanical complexity around for 9 months out of the year when it's not needed, not for me! I don't care if it pencils out, having 3 rigs compared to just one, I like the ability of choosing the vehicle for the days mission and keeping things as efficient as possible.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by liveforphysics » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:11 pm

Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Tell them about the value of 0.7Liters per 100km and your trailer, and how hauling it around is worth the cancer and genetic health problems.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:17 pm

liveforphysics wrote:....... Currently ~4.2Million deaths a year attributed to toxins added to the life support system already.
That's an average of ~11,500 deaths daily, ........s.

Hmmm ?...odd , UNICEF recently put that figure at 600,000 per year ( way too many still) , or about one tenth the number of children that die from malnutrition and basic health problems related to it.
In addition , much of the toxic exposure for those children is likely fron living conditions in countries like China, India, Africa, Asia etc, where an open fire in the center of the main living space is common for heating and cooking.
Malnutrition and basic healthcare is often directly related to the lack of access to resources available from aid agencies who are unable to reach many areas due to lack of suitable transportation ..air, river, rough roads or tracks etc.
Transportation is not just the key to solving this type of problem, it is also one of the fundamentals to the development and progress of modern societies.
Without fossil fuels, all international movement of people and produce would be halted, or limited to those nations with land borders....until a few more sail powered ships could be resurected ...not exactly progress !
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by rojitor » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:32 am

The number of deaths per year from polution is not exact. There's many different opinions about it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35568249
They say 5.5m per year. I guess numbers can be arguable but the fact they are dying is not.
Even one death per year is unacceptable. Life is our most precious value. When profit is above human lives something is just wrong in our society.

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Hillhater » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:40 am

Sure, but now we are mixing numbers between child deaths and total deaths .
Interesting to note though, that in both India and China, whilst by far thr biggest use of coal is for power generation, the majority of premature deaths attributed to toxic air, is from domestic. " indoor" pollution rather than outdoor... ( power plant/ industrial)...atmospheric pollution. IE , the domestic use of coal and wood etc for heating and cooking.
That is a difficult situation to solve in countries and populations of that size.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Punx0r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:04 am

Waaah! I can't tow with an EV! :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9k1KaoNDHw

dirkdiggler makes some good points. The world is full of nay-sayers who will object outright to any idea that they don't consider perfect i.e. it doesn't fufill 100% of people's needs 100% of the time. Ever heard the phrase "good enough"? Or "incremental improvement"?

First the objections were the tech is not sufficient and it's too expensive. Then the tech became good enough but it was still too expensive compared to an ICE car. Now we're starting to see EVs go mainstream and prices are starting to become competitive with ICE. You really think the trend will stop there? Electric power trains are comparatively simple and reliable, cost savings will be realised as the technology matures. Now the objection is that, great new EVs are competitive, but they can't compete with 10 year-old ICE car prices, well just wait.

The first mobile phones and laptop computers were bulky, shitty, had poor battery life and cost the earth. They understandably didn't appeal to the needs of everyone. Now even homeless guys on the street have a smart phone in their pocket.

As for battery tech hasn't improved in 10 years that's a joke. The capacity of useable EV cells has about doubled in that time, got more reliable and the price has fallen by a factor of about five. For the future, well we're likely to see solid-state batteries with the next 10 years.

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Ratking
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Ratking » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:29 am

liveforphysics wrote:
Ratking wrote: Only religious electric revolution guys think that electric vehicles are anywhere near replacing gasoline. They cannot see the reality. And for those telling me to just get the new Tesla with the biggest battery, please send me 100 000$ and I will do so. But until then I have to use what works, my trusty old diesel. It does not complain when I load the car and trailer down. No electric car even has that capability today.

No, the truth is that there is no option for people that needs the car for more than going from a to b with only their body and some lightweight baggage. But I am looking forward to the day when that is possible

Ratking- If you're able, perhaps imagine the perspective of today's children. Currently ~4.2Million deaths a year attributed to toxins added to the life support system already.

That's an average of ~11,500 deaths daily, so ~470 deaths per hour, or more than your VW with a trailer could haul away in bodies every few minutes.

When the future generations ask who was accountable, please do tell them about how well your VW diesel and trailer served the world they inherented, and how it was all worth trading everyone's shared life support system in exchange for some stuff being shuffled from here to there.
O'boy Luke, did not see this coming. Both using fake numbers and taking the moral high ground, that is a new low. Just as I see in religious movements, I grew up in one, so I should know.
I don't know where to start, since the whole post is based on a lie. Do you really think that young kids and people are dying because we drive cars that consume oil derivatives?
To my luck, another green party, based on religious views, just as seen in this tread, was treated as the liars they are and confronted with a study that just came out. Do you know how many persons that was calculated to die early each year in Norway, Luke? Six (6) people each year, and then we are talking sick and elderly people that may only have days left anyway. Can I get your specific source where kids die as flies every day due to emission from diesel cars? If you manage to give me these facts, I will retract everything and give you an apology and tell everybody that I was in the wrong.

http://www.iiasa.ac.at/web/home/about/n ... l-nox.html

To you other non consistent factual besserwissers, I am not making a case that is unreasonable, you just have your head too far up your asses to see the reality. I am using a car and a trailer quite often. I does not matter that you, in your reality do not use one. Another facts thats seems to slip your mind, I don't have the money to buy an electric car. I am dazzled that people that seems so smart can sink so low in the name of "green revolution". I am living in a place without fast chargers, too far from work in order to buy a "cheap, short range electric car". We get whats called a winter here in Norway, FYI, it sucks the usable range out of the battery.

Punx0r
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Re: 80 new EV models from VW by 2025 !

Post by Punx0r » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:08 am

The excess deaths per year quoted for air pollution are not what they seem. It does not indicate a number of people who actually die. It's the total number of days the average person's life is shortened by multiplied out by the population size and life expectancy. So if breathing traffic fumes causes or worsens a range of conditions that remove 4 years from the average person's life, that increases the average death rate in the population. It does not mean thousands of otherwise healthy people drop dead each year because they got too close to an exhaust pipe.

One thing it does neglect though is reduced quality of health and life. While something may not kill someone, it's still not great if it increases the incidence asthma or non-fatal cancer.

I read the results of a study a few months ago that (for some reason) looked at tiny iron particles discovered in the brains of corpses. The source of the particles were identifiable based on their shape/form. Naturally occurring ones (representing the normal background amount) were outnumbered by something a hundred times the amount of ones that come from ICE engines. It's unknown what is the medical/health effects of having your brain riddled with iron particles, but it's unlikely to be good.

It's just another aspect of local air pollution whose real effect will probably only become known in the coming decades. NoX, hydrocarbons, SoX, micro-particulates (these are also from brakes and tyres).

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