Ford model T conversion

Electric cars, trucks, ATVs, NEVs - things bigger than a motorcycle.
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carpenterterry09   1 µW

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Ford model T conversion

Post by carpenterterry09 » Apr 06 2022 3:03am

Hi, I'm starting to convert my old Model T to electric drive. 72V 300Ah battery.
I bought a kit from SIAECOSYS, with 2 off APT72600 controllers and 2 off HUB motors.
I'm not an electrician, and it's difficult to get technical support from them.

Is it any of you that can help me understand the controller, and answer the questions on attached diagram ?
HUB motor på plass.jpg
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Nytt batteri inkl radiator 2.jpg
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Handwritten questions APT diagram.pdf
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stan.distortion   1 kW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by stan.distortion » Apr 06 2022 6:23am

That should make a really nice conversion :) Wouldn't have gone for hub motors personally as there's not a whole lot of weight in a T so unsprung weight will have a big effect, mounting might be tricky with wooden wheels and iirc axle location is by torque tube but hubs are definitely the simplest route all the same. Novel radiator cap :) And is that an early Land Rover left hand drive steering box?

I'll take a shot at a few of the questions but I think you'll either find a different diagram or sketch something up for what you actually have, that one seems more confusing than helpful!

1. It's power to an external DC-DC convertor for powering vehicle lights etc and is shown wired into a greyed out main contactor :/ No idea why they would draw in the convertor, grey out the contactor, overlook pre-charge entirely... read up on pre-charge and main contactors, you're going to need both but can put something temporary together just using the battery connector and an isolator switch easily enough.

1b. You mean you have 2 plugs coming from your motors? You're sure your motors are hall sensors? I doubt they've supplied motors that are incompatible with the controllers but it will need checking. 5 of those wires will be for the halls, 3 sensors, 5v and earth. If the power wires are easily identified then the sensors are easy enough to test on the bench, just needs a multimeter, slowly turn the motors and the halls will switch between on and off.

2. I've no idea which port that refers to on the controller, at a guess refer to pins on a socket on the controller rather than on whatever loom came with it.

3. BEMF, back electro magnetic force would be the logical answer but I've no idea why it would be a pin assignment :/ (might just be a lack of knowledge on my part and there's a simple answer).

4. At a guess it's the brake switch. Some use 12v, some use a normally closed earth connection, etc. In this case it's 5v normally open, easy enough to do with a relay if you want to keep 12v on the switch. Could be an e-stop either but that wouldn't usually be done with a normally open connection, you want a broken wire to cause a fault under normal operation rather than finding out about it when you hit the button and nothing happens!

5. Ummm... dash mounted error light? I haven't got a clue tbh but I doubt it will prevent testing.

6. Gear lever/multifunction switch. Connection looks straight forward enough based on the connector block diagram beside it but the pin numbers are the same as other pin numbers on that PDF :/

7. All the grounds on the plug should be common, wouldn't matter which you use. Not sure if the main ground will also be common and I wouldn't take a chance on using it, better to keep all the high current stuff entirely separate from the control circuity (often isolated from vehicle ground too).

8. Usually 5v (but not always), same connections as question 2. You really need a diagram for just that socket on the controller, there should be a 5v supply on there for it but you need to know from which pin.
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j bjork   100 kW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by j bjork » Apr 06 2022 7:46am

Looks like an interesting project, I would sure be interested to see more of this :thumb:

Qs often have double sets of hall sensors, so you have an extra set if there is a problem with the first one.
If you two sets of wires from the motors, that is probably why.

There are some threads with some info about these controllers on the forum, this one is probably the biggest:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97089&p=1659679&hil ... 0#p1659679

carpenterterry09   1 µW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by carpenterterry09 » Apr 07 2022 3:36am

Thank you for your comments stan and j bjork.
The steering box is from a Suzuki jeep (413)
Attached photo of the controllers and the APT 72600 manual, found after following a thread on the forum advised from j bjork.

1.Not easy to find a key switch rated for 72V, is it possible to use a normal 12V ignition switch, from manual I see it's drawing only 300mA to 1A if it's correct ?
2. Noted
3. From manual, C6, used for Thief Prevent alert kit ?
4. From manual, C3, high level stop effect, what does this mean ?
5. From manual, B6, pulse out put for indicator, for speedometer I suppose ?
A6, signal out, default set to alert of motor fail and OC output
Could this be a indicator lamp mounted in the dash, similar to the blinking indicator lamp that is on the short side
of the controller itself ?
6. From manual, A4, low level voltage stop effect, what does this mean ?
All this switches seen, could it be normal 12V toggle switches that is normal open, and to be manual operated ?

New question
9. In the manual, it's shown a schematic diagram for the controller, but it's for scooter, and not for EV car. Where do I find one for a car ?
APT1405 (APT96600) Manual.pdf
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stan.distortion   1 kW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by stan.distortion » Apr 07 2022 8:04am

carpenterterry09 wrote:
Apr 07 2022 3:36am
Thank you for your comments stan and j bjork.
The steering box is from a Suzuki jeep (413)
Attached photo of the controllers and the APT 72600 manual, found after following a thread on the forum advised from j bjork.

1.Not easy to find a key switch rated for 72V, is it possible to use a normal 12V ignition switch, from manual I see it's drawing only 300mA to 1A if it's correct ?
2. Noted
3. From manual, C6, used for Thief Prevent alert kit ?
4. From manual, C3, high level stop effect, what does this mean ?
5. From manual, B6, pulse out put for indicator, for speedometer I suppose ?
A6, signal out, default set to alert of motor fail and OC output
Could this be a indicator lamp mounted in the dash, similar to the blinking indicator lamp that is on the short side
of the controller itself ?
6. From manual, A4, low level voltage stop effect, what does this mean ?
All this switches seen, could it be normal 12V toggle switches that is normal open, and to be manual operated ?

New question
9. In the manual, it's shown a schematic diagram for the controller, but it's for scooter, and not for EV car. Where do I find one for a car ?
...
1. Usually a high current contactor is used, a damn big relay and that would usually be actuated with 12v, it's switching the full battery voltage (72v?) with a lower voltage.
3. Immobiliser, usually ok to leave disconnected but it depends on the controller.
4 and 6. High or low brake (regen) switches. Probably better left until after the main issues are done, not needed to get it running and regen can be a can of worms all by its self.
5. My best guess would be yes to both.
9. Shouldn't be a whole lot of difference, there might be things like sidestand switches that don't apply but other than that it should be fairly generic, a scooter wouldn't usually have reverse but there should be a pin to engage it.
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mannydantyla   100 W

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by mannydantyla » Apr 13 2022 2:15pm

This is a really cool project, thank you for sharing.

You're going to want more documentation. Can you contact the kit's seller and get a user guide for the controller? If they don't respond, try asking QS it looks like they sell the same controller.

1. What is described in the wiring diagram is large toggle switch (what had a square drawn around it) feeding power to a dc-to-dc converter, which, when switch on, gives power to a 12v contactor (greyed out in the diagram), which then connects the motor and controller to the battery.

If you want it to be really simple, then you should use a large manual battery disconnect switch instead of a contactor. But you might have a hard time finding one that can handle the high amps and volts. Here's an example: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110352&start=125#p1698884

Otherwise you'll need to wire a contactor. You can get a 12v contactor so that the contactor's coil can be operated by your 12v circuit coming from a dc-to-dc converter or from a 12v battery. This is how it is described in your wiring diagram, and also how I'm doing it for my build. Or, you can get a 72v contactor that can be operated by a normal wire from the 72v battery and with a toggle switch in series. The second option might be a little more simple..?

There's also a required precharge resistor, needed for either a contactor or a battory disconnect switch. It will keep the controller from becoming damaged when power is turned on.

2. It's not clear at all but I suspect that this is the connector between the motor and the controller. If you bought this as a kit then it should be ready to go. Just plug the connector coming from the motor to the matching connector coming from the controller. Hopefully this is the case.

3. no idea, need to see controller's documentation.

4. not sure, need to see controller's documentation. Looks like a brake switch. Either for controlling regen, or for dissabling throttle when the brake is applied.

5. no idea. Error output?

6. looks like a set of switches for forward/reverse, fast/slow mode, etc.

7. no idea

8. The Hall sensor will be very similar to #2, it's communication between the motor and the controller, and it should already be wired so that you don't have to worry about this. Just plug the appropriate connectors together.

Hope this helps!

carpenterterry09   1 µW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by carpenterterry09 » Aug 05 2022 5:40am

All electrical wires now connected according to the wiring scheme.
But when in Drive mode the wheels spin backwards, and when in Revers mode, the wheels spin in the forward direction.
Does anybody know which motor parameter values that have to be changed in the APT72600 Controller to change the rotation direction ??
Forward and backward angle offset is today -105

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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 05 2022 7:00am

Would not worry about changing Parameters, need to swap phase/hall sensor wires. Normally this is simple. You have two controllers so both run backwards?
Then each side will need to be swapped. There is a write up on this easer if I find it and not try to explain. Its is as simple as swapping a set of wires on each side.

How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor
You may now want to read it all so you are looking to swap "If the "smooth" rotation is in the "backward" direction then switch 2 hall wires."
This would need to be done the same on both controllers. I would guess that the motors are mounted on the wrong sides for the wiring.
by carpenterterry09 » Aug 05 2022 5:40am

All electrical wires now connected according to the wiring scheme.
But when in Drive mode the wheels spin backwards, and when in Revers mode, the wheels spin in the forward direction.
Does anybody know which motor parameter values that have to be changed in the APT72600 Controller to change the rotation direction ??
Forward and backward angle offset is today -105
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2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

carpenterterry09   1 µW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by carpenterterry09 » Aug 05 2022 8:15am

Hi, I now see that the hub motors are marked with one L and the other R, I did not know this when installing, and I think I it is best to swap them, so they will be on the correct each side.
It is some mechanical work, but I am not an electrician, therefore this is may be the simplest way to solve the problem !

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 05 2022 2:17pm

I'm a fan of the Model-T transmission. A robust planetary gearset, with two forward speeds and one in reverse. Operated by a simple and strong mechanical linkage system.

Too bad millions of them were melted down in WWII for the war effort.

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Re: Ford model T conversion

Post by amberwolf » Aug 05 2022 8:29pm

carpenterterry09 wrote:
Aug 05 2022 5:40am
But when in Drive mode the wheels spin backwards, and when in Revers mode, the wheels spin in the forward direction.
Simplest way to fix that is relabel the F/R switch, or flip it around. ;)

Or if you're using an NC switch, use an NO switch instead.
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