Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Electric cars, trucks, ATVs, NEVs - things bigger than a motorcycle.
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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by liveforphysics » Jan 09 2014 3:30am

I should have looked over your site more closely, I missed the motor. lol

Can you help us understand the losses and loss relationships in an electro-static motor?
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flathill   100 kW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by flathill » Jan 09 2014 3:32am

halcyon_m wrote:
As for power density, if I didn't think we had a shot at besting the electromagnetic equivalent, I wouldn't be spending my time on it. Thanks for the comments.
very excited to hear you think you have a chance to match or best the power density of the electromagnetic equivalent IN AIR

Hopefully you get it working just in time as we are rolling out graphene ultra capacitors
No step down needed

In a vacuum nothing matches the power density of an electrostatic motor

For more on ufo drive :D

Seriously though.

"Applications of direct charge nuclear batteries"
Page 140
"Two promising applications of direct charge nuclear battery include powering electrostatic motor...

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstre ... sequence=3

some applications of nuclear batteries, such as electrostatic motors which require high voltage, can be provided without up-conversion.

Funded by darpa

6 Top-Secret Aircraft that are Mistaken for UFOs
The CIA estimates that more than half of the UFOs reported in the 1950s and 1960s were really American spy planes. Here are six (no longer) secret aircraft that people have mistaken for extraterrestrial flying saucers.
Last edited by flathill on Jan 09 2014 4:11am, edited 2 times in total.

flathill   100 kW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by flathill » Jan 09 2014 3:36am

liveforphysics wrote:I should have looked over your site more closely, I missed the motor. lol

Can you help us understand the losses and loss relationships in an electro-static motor?
Generator/motor systems based on electrostatic principles (pioneered in their modern form by J. Trump at M.I.T.), although unsuitable for fast- discharge applications, are ideal for diurnal-use, bulk- storage applications, having both very high efficiency and zero parasitic losses when no power is being extracted.

Try reading the trump paper I linked to earlier. The main difference in air would mainly be windage losses which are simple to calculate. the paper also makes reference to other losses in air such as dielectric hystersis loss and surface/volume leakage.

BigOutrunner   1 W

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by BigOutrunner » Jan 09 2014 1:25pm

flathill wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:I should have looked over your site more closely, I missed the motor. lol

Can you help us understand the losses and loss relationships in an electro-static motor?
Generator/motor systems based on electrostatic principles (pioneered in their modern form by J. Trump at M.I.T.), although unsuitable for fast- discharge applications, are ideal for diurnal-use, bulk- storage applications, having both very high efficiency and zero parasitic losses when no power is being extracted.

Try reading the trump paper I linked to earlier. The main difference in air would mainly be windage losses which are simple to calculate. the paper also makes reference to other losses in air such as dielectric hystersis loss and surface/volume leakage.
Flathill is quite right.
I can say right now that Figures 14 and 18 will be quite troublesome. This paper discloses nearly all patentable aspects.
Where and how did you come by the link? It is quite an exciting read!

Copying it again below for others. Thanks for it flathill!
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/ ... sequence=1

How much of it you think is Nikola Tesla's direct work?

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by BigOutrunner » Jan 09 2014 1:35pm

flathill wrote: linear halbach motors are now hitting 1671W/kg
Flathill, can you provide a link to your statement above? Thanks!

halcyon_m   10 W

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by halcyon_m » Jan 09 2014 2:16pm

BigOutrunner wrote:
flathill wrote: linear halbach motors are now hitting 1671W/kg
Flathill, can you provide a link to your statement above? Thanks!
This number is actually 1680w/kg (1.68kW/kg) per the 2007 Camry Hybrid report posted by ORLN
http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/928684 per page number 44 (pg 54 of the PDF)

However, those are peak ratings, and those are all questionable. In this case, I think that rating (70kW for the Camry motor) is around 18 seconds. However, later in the report, page 83, it was able to put out 50kW for a little over 9 minutes. Not exactly steady-state, but the temperatures were approaching steady state. It was able to operate at 25kW (above 5000RPM) indefinitely, with 65C coolant. While there's certainly a lot of variables, including speed, coolant temp, inverter voltage, frequency, etc., if we take the steady-state rating at 25kW, this power density falls to 600W/kg.

Details do tend to make things messy. It will be hard to make an apples-apples comparison without specific tasks for the motor to perform.

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by flathill » Jan 09 2014 3:30pm

BigOutrunner wrote:Flathill is quite right.
I can say right now that Figures 14 and 18 will be quite troublesome. This paper discloses nearly all patentable aspects.
Where and how did you come by the link? It is quite an exciting read!

Copying it again below for others. Thanks for it flathill!
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/ ... sequence=1

How much of it you think is Nikola Tesla's direct work?
Yes quite the enjoyable read indeed! Think if we had a global energy grid as Buck Fuller proposed the sun would never set! Solar power will rule the world! (note the sun does't actually set/rise, go up/down, better to teach your kids is sunclipse/sunsight to get them thinking thinking right from an early age)

Trump was obviously a very talented fellow. I don't think it was a direct take of Tesla's work, but the government and energy sector was dying to find out what Tesla was working on. This might be why his research lab in New York was torched. In the ashes Telsa noted much of his equipment was missing. Metal equipment that would not burn. The fire department blamed it on metal scrappers. I guess tweakers were a problem even back then. Of course any stolen information would be first shared with military funded universities

The patent-able aspect is not the motor topology itself, it is the fundamental breakthrough of integrating the flexure bearing into the center of the disc and then using an air bearing to keep the thin floppy discs spaced properly. Inherently self stabilizing! Allows super thin plates to be used. Note you need thick plates normally not because of ohmic losses, but only because they become floppy when you make em thin. Note when plate spacing goes down in air to less than a hair, the breakdown voltage of the air goes up. Not intuitive. I'm interested in hearing what plate spacing they are able to hold with the air bearing.

Anyways, back to the topics at hand! Electrostatic motors and power transfer...and why it is a bad idea to make 650V packs out of hobby grade lipo :P Just kidding.

Very excited to hear more about your controller that sounds perfect for the DIY market with integrated switched outputs for accesories (although this aspect must be modular). Put it together and test it with a bank of used 12v lead acid batts! Forget the EV for now. One step at a time. Remember even if the DIY community can't safely make DIY 650V packs (that will actually hold up to the elements), we can sure as hell buy 400V packs already made....say from a wrecked Telsa Model S or BMW i8/5/3

halcyon_m   10 W

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by halcyon_m » Jan 09 2014 4:47pm

...On the topic of buying batteries from wrecked vehicles, it really depends on how bad the wreck was.

I remembered the first Chevy Volt fire happened 3 weeks after the crash test. I imagine nobody is going to buy a pack with the side all dented up (or should at least), but that's the risk you run with modern batteries. You pack enough energy in one spot and it will be a liability. I know that some batteries will last longer under normal circumstances, but they all seem capable of unhinging themselves under the wrong circumstances and that's just physics. My hope is that with my BMS project that I'll be able to not only treat them correctly, but give warning when something may happen. Puffing is the result of some gassious-forming reaction that should take some energy from the cell. With coulomb counting, this should be an effect that could be identified from electrical measurements.

flathill   100 kW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by flathill » Jan 09 2014 5:09pm

what I am seeing are Tesla packs scrapped because the tow truck driver drags it up on flatbed without releasing the electronic parking brake after a minor fender bender. this tweaks the pack due to a design flaw. because the pack is damaged, but really it is fine, the car is ruled a total loss. same thing with minor dents in pack from running over a curb. total loss on a 45k pack

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by Dauntless » Jan 10 2014 1:10am

flathill wrote: In a vacuum nothing matches the power density of an electrostatic motor.
Is that what the Dirt Devil uses? Won't it suck the carpeting right up, too? (Remember Tim Allen? "Looking for MORE POWER!")
flathill wrote: 6 Top-Secret Aircraft that are Mistaken for UFOs
The CIA estimates that more than half of the UFOs reported in the 1950s and 1960s were really American spy planes. Here are six (no longer) secret aircraft that people have mistaken for extraterrestrial flying saucers.
The AIr Force first went public with pictures of the Stealth Fighter because one crashed and it was being called a UFO. Look around online and you can find some of the crackpots insisting it was a UFO that only LOOKED like the Stealth Fighter. All these crashed UFO's at Area 51 and we haven't even been able to crack their BATTERY technology. Just let one of those crash in China and we'll be BUYING interstellar transportation for under $20k.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... omber.html

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dnmun   100 GW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by dnmun » Jan 10 2014 1:19am

halcyon_m wrote:
BigOutrunner wrote:
flathill wrote: linear halbach motors are now hitting 1671W/kg
Flathill, can you provide a link to your statement above? Thanks!
This number is actually 1680w/kg (1.68kW/kg) per the 2007 Camry Hybrid report posted by ORLN
http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/928684 per page number 44 (pg 54 of the PDF)

However, those are peak ratings, and those are all questionable. In this case, I think that rating (70kW for the Camry motor) is around 18 seconds. However, later in the report, page 83, it was able to put out 50kW for a little over 9 minutes. Not exactly steady-state, but the temperatures were approaching steady state. It was able to operate at 25kW (above 5000RPM) indefinitely, with 65C coolant. While there's certainly a lot of variables, including speed, coolant temp, inverter voltage, frequency, etc., if we take the steady-state rating at 25kW, this power density falls to 600W/kg.

Details do tend to make things messy. It will be hard to make an apples-apples comparison without specific tasks for the motor to perform.
thanks for the link. this whole thread is very educational. i found a buncha good stuff there. here is the lexus LS 600h, even more powerful and the IGBT design is just sweet. really elegant and the overall efficiency is even higher than the camry. i had never realized how the up converter and down converter were part of the same component level like that. i have a better appreciation of the toyota technology now too.

http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/947393

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by halcyon_m » Jan 14 2014 3:55pm

Well I wanted to thank the contributors to this thread. Not that I'm sticking a fork in it, particularly because I didn't get too many responses positive or negative, but I appreciate the ones I got.

I'll probably continue on with the project, though I don't think I'll be working with much immediacy considering the other things I have going on. Thanks again everybody (dnmun, liveforphysics, flathill and BigOutrunner)

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by Enginerd » Jan 14 2014 4:48pm

halcyon_m wrote:Well I wanted to thank the contributors to this thread. Not that I'm sticking a fork in it, particularly because I didn't get too many responses positive or negative, but I appreciate the ones I got.

I'll probably continue on with the project, though I don't think I'll be working with much immediacy considering the other things I have going on. Thanks again everybody (dnmun, liveforphysics, flathill and BigOutrunner)


Just stumbled on your thread and sent you a PM. I have a special interest in the Toyota Highlander MGR.

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LockH   100 GW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by LockH » May 14 2015 12:51pm

Hmmm... Lessee... Search of ES Bible found 64 matches: +Electrostatic.

Hmmm... Lessee... Anodizized paint (electrostatic process). Nope. Electrostatic capacitors... nope. "Battery waterproof test"? Nope. Bingo! This thread with "electrostatic MOTOR" mentioned repeatedly.

So, for the [V]iewers pleasure (maybe) an DIY Instructables just popped up:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrostatic-Motor/

(3D printed)
Image
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

4LivesPerGallon   1 kW

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Re: Continue EV project or not? Need feedback

Post by 4LivesPerGallon » Jul 03 2015 11:48am

If your project is "no clutch", imo, it is flawed terminally.

Getting a full-function BMS that works is the biggest challenge.

The UBC car club guys that got their VW beetle from coast-to-coast in Canada have a good one, and so does the Tesla. Imo, if looking for a BMS, **avoid** the US reseller who uses different company names, e.g. Electric Motorsport, http://www.electricmotorsport.com/, owned/run by Todd Kollin aka "TK"


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