BIG MACHINES!!

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, so I still need to get used to the layout.....

Question: - Does anyone know of a 4x4, Pick-up, SUV, mini-van (Toyota HiAce, Nissan Urvan) - conversion?

- Any medium or fullsize truck/bus conversions? Like a Skoolie converted to full E-drive or serial hybrid (diesel generator, but drive train full electric)?
[I am aware of the https://www.wrightspeed.com/ stuff, but I didn't see anyone do his/her own stuff using these or other components]

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/05/electric-bus-drives-from-melbourne-to-sydney-on-1-charge/

http://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1511/electric-bus-tops-1000km/


My plan (...well, dream... ) is to convert a Skoolie into a travel-home. Reading through a post on a different forum, lead me to seriously think about a serial hybrid, with a huge battery bank and a diesel generator (2x smaller units), more as a back up and range extender, than general drive unit....

Scale - the bigger the better - should favor efficiency ......


Cheers,

thjakits 8)

Have you looked at evalbum, or diyelectriccar forums?

Amberwolf,

thanks for the pointers!

I already had checked on diyelectric, but evalbum is something else!! I had no idea how many conversions are about already!

Unfortunately nothing really on really big rigs - I assume the conversion costs are just too high, ....still....

It seems something has to happen in the battery department if converting bigger machines is the goal....way too expensive at this point!

For a commercial operator probably viable, but let's say for the typical Skoolie converter it just doesn't make economic sense, ....yet.

For the price of the batteries alone one could drive "forever" with the good old turbo-diesel engine.....

It can be done as seen with the 1000+ km run in Australia, but the price needs to come down severely....


thanx again....

thjakits 8)

It can still be done if you just wanted to do it for the sake of doing it, or because you don't want to use gasoline.

But if you're doing it to save money, large EVs are not the way to go.

Even small ones like ebikes might be cheaper to build and run as ICE instead.

I don't do EV because it's cheaper (though when I started, I used almost completely recycled stuff, so it *was* cheaper, just the cost of my time and a little electricity and whatever consumables during construction), but because I like the quietness and the idea itself, as well as the lesser direct pollution, and the theoretical longevity and lower carbon footprint, etc.

...you certainly can do that with smaller vehicles - at the end any WELL built EV will beat the c*** out of a ICE...

BUT - you normally do a Skoolie, because it is the cheapest way to get to a big rolling home or travel-home...

Certainly cheaper than even the most basic Explorer build.

Nowadays you will try to get as much solar-energy as possible and maybe even a wind-turbine when stationary, however even if you get a battery pack that can support you for 1-2 days (which is already some serious money), actually driving as an EV will be prohibitive on the battery side!!
Just getting enough capacity to at least run as a parallel hybrid, to recover brake-energy is already seriously expensive, let alone a 500+ km range....

So, at the end it will come down to economics - unless one or the other wonder-battery becomes reality......

WHICH is of course leads to another question - IS there already a Lithium Lobby, possibly buying up "Alternative Battery" Patents??
[I seriously hope Lithium doesn't become the new crude oil...]


thjakits

Would you really want a "Rolling Home" EV to cruise for 500km ?
Even if you did, how often would you do it ?
Driving a Schoolie 500 km in one hit, doesn't seem like something I would look forward to !
Should not the plan be to have a Mobile Home that can move under EV power when needed, maybe 50-100km max ?
So 50 kWhr of battery..recycled Leaf/Volt packs etc, and 3- 5 kWhr of solar on the roof could keep you living off grid and moving every other day if needed.

....well - skoolie movin' - whatever fits your plate!

My dream is to keep on moving and then "park"/stay wherever I want for days/weeks/month at a time.

- However you might want to move back and forth seasonally from one end of the country (or continent) to the other quickly....

- What if you just don't have the time to do the treck 50km/day (let's say you want to MOVE 1500km - which in the context of US or Canada or S-America isn't much at all)

- Another item is long descends - IF you want to brake-recover energy you need to be able to store it somewhere - if you only have a 50-150km range of batteries available, you will be burning electric energy shortly!! (My idea would be to use re-gen-braking, but once you are topped off, you have not much choice the "warm-up" the environment: heat up water and radiator-cool it down again.....obviously you will heat up your household water first, but eventually you going to heat the environment....).

- Also, when it comes to the Americas, there ARE huge stretches that are plainly uninteresting if not hostile, so you want to be able to move through as quickly as possible.

- .....this does not mean you have to pull a 500-1000 km non-stop drive, obviously you will take breaks, but a 1/2 hr or 1hr break will not do much to top off the batteries, even if you fold out the solar roof top to triple its size, many times you even may not be able to that if you have limited space to park for your break....

- And finally, even IF you go by 50/150 short trips - the bigger your battery bank is, the longer you can take bad weather, before having to start your gen-set....


Obviously, the batteries are the REAL hurting point in the wallet, unless the prize comes way down.....

The Aussies demonstrated that it is possible to do 1000+ km on one charge with a bus (even though they "cheated" somewhat by going long stretches at 50km/h - which won't do in a real commercial environment, but I would think the same charge should give me a 500 km range at 80-100 km/h and/or going uphill)


Cheers,

thjakits 8)

Sounds like you had better keep that old Diesel then .......with a very large tank !

...for now - that would have to be the plan.
Though that dream is still a ways off - so - hoping for the cheap battery break through!!

thjakits 8)

I was just thinking the same kind of things yesterday. I was thinking about converting a Ford F150 Crew Cab, Eleventh generation (2004–08) or Twelfth generation (2009–14); they look very similar, I doubt most people can tell the difference between them. I have seen some sell in the classifieds for $1000 with a blown transfer case, transmission or engine.

This is a very unique situation because you are getting away from the older style looking trucks, Ford 1992-1996 generation and the 1997-2003 more rounded generation, which tend to sometimes be rusted out. Cops or as I like to call them PIGS are always on the hunt for "bums" who drive those "older" vehicles, yet they let the newer vehicles slide. I have been victim to it, the vehicle prejudice.

These era of half ton trucks tend to be in the 4500 lbs curb weight category.
Ford Ranger is a popular EV conversion, weighs in at 3600 lbs.
Suzuki size type SUV's 2400 lbs.

You do not want to go with a strictly 100% electric vehicle because you are limited in the range. You want to be able to use gas/diesel if necessary to dramatically extend your range, but use electric when you take off from a stop, or speed up.

I do not think gas prices are where they are at in North America for a good return on investment.
The average driver puts on 20,000 to 25,000 km a year (15,000 miles), which uses $3000 to $3500 per year in gas.
A DC or AC motor is $1500, controller is $1500, batteries will easily be another $1500+.

You would have to see the benefits of going 48V or 72V, 96V or 144V. The more voltage the faster you go, but using it for stop and go you dont need 144V speeds, which is related to the wind of the motor (kv). The more amperes the more torque. And remember if you go 48V you can drastically increase your batteries Amp-Hour, and thus increase its peak amp output (the more strings in parallel).

I think your best bet is to use a series wound DC motor, 48V - 144V
check out this website
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/
They got a 85HP series wound motor 26kW!!!! Series wound motors are used to get moving large loads.
Think about that, a F150 is V6 4.2L and 202HP, while a V8 4.6L is 248HP. Dont need horsepower anyways for acceleration, what we need is amps, and the torque is instant, not curved like ICE.

This is my thoughts, have a "hybrid" system. Where you use the regular ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) at cruising speeds. You might want to look into if gasoline or diesel get better fuel mileage at cruising speeds.
Gasoline/Diesel is consumed most when you stop & go so an additional boost of torque with the electric motor would reduce the gas consumption.

How to install, get a machine shop to custom make you a rear axle yoke that has an added chain ring on it. Chains have been used in transfer cases for a very long time. The most durable is of course geared, like the NP205, chain NP203. There is something called a twin-stick, NP203/205 used by offroaders.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/129-0710-11-best-transfer-cases/

You install the motor ontop of the transfer case, with the custom yoke, or motor ontop of the rear axle with a custom yoke. Those are solid and never move, while everything else is meant to articulate.

I just dont think its feasible with gas prices currently. But the sooner you do it, maybe the sooner its paid off.

But remember, what is the consumable parts?
Motor Brushes and Batteries.

So going with a motor lets say 50kW at 48V if they make one, is your best bet.

http://www.motenergy.com/me1002.html
http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-129399866319704/ME1002data.pdf
http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-129399866319704/SCAN0071.JPG

The ME1002 is a Series Wound DC motor perfect for lite truck and small car EV conversions. It is 10 inches in diameter, weighing 190 pounds. Continuous current of 200 amps, and 550 amps for 2 minutes. Voltages from 48 to 144 VDC. Efficiencies of up to 92%. Perfect for use with the Curtis 1231 Motor Control. The power is 26 KW (35 HP)continuous, and 63 KW (85 HP) peak. More powerful than the NetGain Warp 9 and ADC FB1-4001 motors.

Typical shipping cost in the Continental USA of $150 by LTL truck. Motor Weighs 190 pounds. Motor in the shipping crate is 203 Pounds. The motor is shipped on a pallet measuring 48 x 40 x 30, weighing 240 pounds.

Click to expand...

Markz,

...as always - it depends!!

What's the goal of your conversion??

Daily commute?? How long is it - one way? Usually - how much time one way??


thjakits

Just thoughts and ponderings.

Companies sell AC motors as well, but I don't know much about them. I'm thinking you need some sort of inverter which is an added cost. I have never seen an inverter that makes 10kW or more, its got to be pricey.

Maybe you need a different type of controller for a Series Wound DC motor. Be cool if a Sabatov controller or the Addepto one could work.

I think an average daily mileage of 30km and a max if needed would be 45km. Then lets say 70% of that is straight, cruising speed, and 30% is stop and go. Then electric distance is only 9km - 14km.
Using your ICE for times when you are just cruising would extend the life of your system dramatically.
So ideally you want a functioning and operating truck or SUV where you just slip in a DC or AC motor where you have room.
For a truck that is the bed of the truck, rear axle, or transfer case.
You can easily jack up the truck with a suspension kit to make room for the motor. You can do it on a budget too, hockey pucks can be used for a body lift. If you are placing it ontop of the axle.
More ideally it would be placed on the side but then you'd need to have an additional piece to change the direction of the rotor. 10" diameter for a motor is workable.

Its not about the watt/hp rating or speed of the motor anyway, its only about the torque. Get a very high speed motor, and do a gear reduction, maybe a 10:1 ratio, would get the ft/lbs up to 310 ft/lbs (170A) to 670 ft/lbs (300A) at 48V.

Remember a F350 diesel truck weighs 6000 lbs and is only 300-400HP and 400 ft/lbs. And that is on a power curve.
Electric is instant!!!!
So at 48V and 170A you are just about at the trucks max rating.

http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-129399866319704/ME1002data.pdf
http://www.autobytel.com/ford/f-350/2014/specifications/

Okay - going by your list of Ford trucks - and assuming you get one with a burnt engine/trans/tranfer:

Build it either with 2 chassis mounted motors or 4 hub-motors (lots of movement in that area now...), of course you want regen-braking.
Then fill up all available space with batteries!! For range extension take a small-volume high-power turbo-diesel-gen unit to charge batteries and/or drive the e-motors.....
Probably not as efficient as a parallel hybrid, but if you can get your daily commute covered by e-power, this series hybrid will save you the trans/transfer/big engine.
You need the big IC to be able to pull big when you need it, but most of the time (98%) you do NOT need that power.

So - if you have the big e-motors to do the trick all you need a "pump to fill the batteries on time" - a 180kw turbo-diesel gen-set, optimized to run as that (gen set as opposed to street driven engine...), should have you covered anytime! Probably need to drive with some forward vision, when it comes to operate the combo, but generally you should be able to still go anywhere anytime and still do your daily commute without the need for the IC.

Now - call Elon so he can sell you a few solar panels and his wall mount battery!!


thjakits

....maybe you should start with that engine-less Ford and a totaled Tesla!!

No no, Alberta is "Truck Country" no wimpy low sporty cars here, cant even get over a mall speed bump, or ride gravel roads.

I have seen 2 dc motors joined together, one motor was a through shaft, very interesting stuff.

sorry. but 48v for a truck is just stupid. you will need massive amps to get some decent power. therefore massive wires, massive connectors, big electronics and therefore high priced stuff and massive losses.
no commercial full electric cars uses low voltage. they are all moving to hundreds of volts.
and you don't need big amps for torque. you need the right kV / voltage combination and your fine. of course more amps means more torque for ONE motor. but you need to find the right motor for your application to get the perfect relation between voltage and current.
and it's not Ah that matters, it's Wh. Wh makes range.

...that's why I said:

Start with a broken engine/trans/transfer FORD and a TOTALED Tesla - do some magic in your man cave (shop) and you got one MMF of a EV-Truck!

What do you mean wimpy low sports car?? You need to study up on Tesla, mate!!


thjakits

No need to study, but thanks for the feed back on my pondering thoughts.
Yeah Tesla's are cool, sure you can buy parts off the Volt etc.

Maybe 2 vehicles are required for me; a work truck and a grocery-getter/man-toy which means more cost.
Might be wiser to build a dual fuel work truck dialed into more of a propane setup, then a grocery-getter/toy-mudder like the Suzuki SUV's XL7, Sidekick, Grand Vitara, Geo Tracker. Very light, good on gas and is a popular donor for conversion to EV. Maybe throw in a electric pusher trailer like what bicycles sometimes do. Can be done, how safe I dont know. I just know city buses here are rear wheel drive and some are pivoted in the middle of their 50' length. Used on certain routes that can accommodate the turning radius during rush hour.


If you look at the QS electric motors, they got one thats 8kw-16kw 72V-144V and 120A is $600, with a $600 Kelly controller.
We are talking about 213NM of torque, or 158 ft/lbs, 2010 F150 4.6L is 300ft/lbs at 4000rpm. 5.4L is 390 ft/lbs.
http://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/QS-8000W-273-50H-E-car_60272780151.html

Two of those modified to fit onto the axle would be amazing. Wouldnt be hard to adapt either.

This motor is $1400
http://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/Customizable-QS-12000W-273-70H-E_60326206477.html
12000W - 24000W and torque aint even listed.
Controller Suggestion - Square Wave Controller: Kelly Controller KHB72701 $900, Sine wave controller: Lingbo controller LBMC072103 $1000.

When you think about it, compared to a rebuilt long block engine these are on par, and never need rebuilding.
The batteries are what cost a lot. But again at 72V and those expensive controllers to handle the current, its sure looking bright. Find some cans that are 4.2V and 3Ah to 3.5Ah, 20S or prismatic modules that come in from 10Ah to 100Ah+.
Thousands of dollars, but if it lasts 10+ yrs, using both gas and electric then you are set. Use the battery power for gas-gussling stop-and-go, when cruising, set the gas motor to cruise. Would have to readjust the driving habits.

From my calculations, 3.6V 60Ah at $41 is a great deal from OSN. 73V 60Ah is $820. 73V 120Ah is $1640.
I'd guess a F150 would use 550-600Wh/m, so 8800Wh / 600 = 15 miles of start-and-go traffic. Combine with straight away drives on cruise control, and 50/50 electric/gas ratio (pretty extreme), you would get 2 or 3 days of driving per charge. 35/65 would net 4 to 5 days between charges. On a per day basis you'd save ~$5 to $7.50/day, $200/m or $2400/yr. Pay off time is just over 1 year. Batteries would last much longer.

http://ev-propulsion.com/EV-calculations.html

Distance:
Speed, Pack KWh rating, driving conditions, aerodynamics, vehicle weight, hills, temperature, driving styles and several other factors
play into the distance question.

The basic formula for determining distance is: ( KWh of pack / wh/m ) = Distance
*note: there are adjustments that have to be made to this formula, see usable pack size below*

Watt-Hour per Mile (Wh/m):
The basic rule of thumb for vehicle is:
Small Vehicle 250-300wh/m
Small Pickup 350-400wh/m

The calculation is: Volts x (Amp Draw / MPH ) = Wh/m

Battery Pack Size (KWH):
Pack Voltage x Amp-Hour rating of battery = KWH

Click to expand...

If I only had a BIG BUDGET!!!
This motor is $1388.00 + $677.12 Shipping

https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/Customizable-QS-12000W-273-70H-E_60326206477.html?spm=a2700.7765678.0.0.fwUj4K

12000W - 24000W x 4, on a 4 wheel drive

need 4, 144 volt 400 amp controllers + more $$$$$$