600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

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600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Sep 30 2016 9:22pm

It seems the "Diesel gate" disaster surrounding VW may have resulted in a serious threat to Tesla...certainly another very real competitor.
VW revealed their 600km range (372 miles) "ID" EV platform at the Paris motor show this week saying that the Diesel fiasco had forced them to refocus their future vehicle plans and bring forward the EV program such that they will have a Golf sized EV with a 600 km range , on sale by 2020 , at a price in line with the current model golf. .....And a whole variety of EV models using the same platform following shortly after.
Tesla should(might ?) have a year or two head start , if they can actually meet some of their forecast dates, but it sounds like VW with likely have the benefit of production scale, experience, and most critically , cost basis .
http://www.caradvice.com.au/486406/volk ... tensifies/

[moderator edit to add miles conversion]
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Dauntless » Sep 30 2016 11:27pm

I don't think threat is really a good work to use. It's a growing market, VW can come up with a car for people who aren't ready to believe in upstart Tesla, etc.

The article didn't get on about U.S. government blackmail after he diesel fiasco; too bad, you know that'll be an interesting story if and when it's told. But I'm sure this is a concept car that may or may not be ahead of schedule. Maybe it'll be the one to make it to market, maybe they'll take the government seriously enough to work a little bit harder in that direction. But how many of the self flatters in the government will still be around long enough to judge whether VW really made a difference? If anything, dieselgate will become a marketing ploy. . . .
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 01 2016 12:59am

VW is buying cells from someone else. That's the most expensive part of the vehicle.

Tesla is vertically integrated beyond VWs scope, and already has an incredible supercharger network in place.

The company's just now talking about their future EV concepts rather than having built an EV relevant supply chain from the ground up will be the mfg's some people from our era will remember as having once been automakers.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Oct 01 2016 2:59am

Personally, i think VW is much less of a threat to Tesla than Tesla is to itself.
Musk has made some ambitious predictions and moves lately that have brought his judgement into question.
If they cannot pull the rabbit out of the hat anf produce the volumes they have forcast themselves ( 50k cars in the 2nd half of '16, and 80 k total for the year, their financials will become under scrutiny., then there is the little matter of ramping that up to 500k units (model 3) in 2018 ! ..that is going to be very tricky !
VW have more than a few problems to deal with, but you can never doubt their ability to survive and develop technology to suit their products.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 01 2016 3:19am

Hillhater wrote:Personally, i think VW is much less of a threat to Tesla than Tesla is to itself.
Musk has made some ambitious predictions and moves lately that have brought his judgement into question.
If they cannot pull the rabbit out of the hat anf produce the volumes they have forcast themselves ( 50k cars in the 2nd half of '16, and 80 k total for the year, their financials will become under scrutiny., then there is the little matter of ramping that up to 500k units (model 3) in 2018 ! ..that is going to be very tricky !
VW have more than a few problems to deal with, but you can never doubt their ability to survive and develop technology to suit their products.

I dunno mate, I think most of the dinosaur imbecile ran auto industry missed the mark and will be rapidly concluded.

Every company currently working on ICE development programs is just digging there own grave. Any company that just today says they are going big on EV's is coming to the party a day late, dollar short, and around a decade behind in setting up EV specific support infrastructure.

That's going to be a hard hole to climb out of in a consumer market place that rejects ICE's on ethical grounds and rightly or wrongly see's the VW symbol as directly representing the issues with crooked automakers and ICE's poisoning the air they breathe.

No matter how 'well established' a company is today in ICE vehicles, it will be the equivalent of being the dominate CRT TV maker or VCR maker in the era of OLED TV's and digital media. ICE cars will never be better than the days when they can't give them away under cost at dealerships due to complete lack of customer interest in ever owning a stink-mobile again.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Punx0r » Oct 01 2016 10:17am

That concept car looks a little thrown together in a hurry, which is probably consistent with the sudden change (real or put-on) in company direction towards greener policy.

Tesla do have a good head-start, but VW (and others) have deeper pockets, more resources and more experience in general automotive manufacturing. They'll also be getting into EVs at an easier time (more mature technology, more receptive market, more experienced engineers) so they could close the gap quite quickly if they play it right. Tesla will bring a mass-market EV sooner, but VW could complete theirs more quickly than the ~10 years it took Tesla. That's not to knock Tesla - its hard being the innovator and first adopter of a technology.

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Oct 01 2016 5:16pm

Punx0r wrote: Tesla do have a good head-start, but VW (and others) have deeper pockets, more resources and more experience in general automotive manufacturing. They'll also be getting into EVs at an easier time (more mature technology, more receptive market, more experienced engineers) .........
LFP wrote:...........Any company that just today says they are going big on EV's is coming to the party a day late, dollar short, and around a decade behind in setting up EV specific support infrastructure.
?.... VW have been manufacturing and selling, and servicing, EVs for several years already in the form of the Egolf and eUp, so they are not exactly beginners in that field.
All that article is saying is they intend to focus on the EV models and accellerate the development of the model range in scope and performance.
Not only are they big enough to produce both ICE ad EV products, they can use profits from existing products to support new EV model development and even subsidise sales.
And whilst certainly not "superchargers" there is already a (rapidly growing) network of over 80,000 public charge points around Europe, where fossil fuels are much more expensive than USA.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 01 2016 5:59pm

"That confirms earlier reports that an updated 2018 VW e-Golf will get a boost in battery range to take it over 100 miles of rated range."

Thats some EV effort....

A sad punt of a compliance car achieving what will be perhaps the lowest range in a 2018 EV...
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Lurkin » Oct 01 2016 6:06pm

It may encourage electrical charging infrastructure in countries where Tesla hasn't taken off yet and draws more attention to electrical vehicles as a possible choice for the average joe consumer. Range and charge time are the only two drawbacks and the more resources being directed to R&D equals more resources spent in the right direction and a higher chance of safely solving these issues in a manner acceptable to make the change. Can't wait, great news. 8)

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Oct 01 2016 7:06pm

liveforphysics wrote: A sad punt of a compliance car achieving what will be perhaps the lowest range in a 2018 EV...
:?: ..not sure where you get that from...
......Dr. Volkmar Tanneberger, Head of Electric Vehicle Development at VW, cleared up some of the confusion this weekend during a press meeting for the Formula E race in Berlin.
The executive confirmed that the 2017 e-Golf will receive a battery upgrade by the end of the year and that it will allow for an NEDC rated range of 300 km (186 miles) on a single charge.
https://electrek.co/2016/05/23/2017-vw- ... les-range/

...and , it does also happen to be one of the lowest cost EVs available.!
US buyers have reported lease deals at $250 /month being quoted.
EDIT...from an unconfirmed source..
...
VW currently offering $139 / mo for 36 months with $3000 at signing in Southern CA.
$2500 CA electric rebate brings the out of pocket to $500 plus tax, license & doc fee.....
ca
Last edited by Hillhater on Oct 02 2016 3:36am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 01 2016 9:11pm

"But the latest generation of the e-Golf, with a zero-emissions range of up to 186 miles (on the European cycle) "

Above from VWs press event.

Info on US/Euro drive cycle numerical relationship below.


"Suppose you could buy a new 2016 Nissan Leaf rated not at 107 miles but 155 miles. That would be a far more desirable car, wouldn't it?

Well, you can--but only in Europe.

The punchline is that the two cars are identical. What differs is the rating procedure used to calculate the range of an electric car.

In a press conference yesterday at the Frankfurt Motor Show for its GripZ concept--a highly stylized small crossover about the size of today's Nissan Juke--Nissan's European arm noted that the 2016 Leaf would soon go on sale with increased range.

As in North America, the Leaf SV and SL models will carry a 30-kilowatt-hour battery pack that boosts range 20 percent.

While the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency puts that model's range at 107 miles combined, its European range is rated at 250 kilometers, or 155 miles."
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Oct 02 2016 3:46am

Ha ! Incredible that two supposedly professional organisations can produce such different results from the same car :roll:
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by kiwiev » Oct 04 2016 5:04am

Hillhater wrote:Ha ! Incredible that two supposedly professional organisations can produce such different results from the same car :roll:
Coming from someone that has drivern EVs for over a year range is really a number made up of too many variables
Right foot
Weather temp wind
People and loads on the car
Traffic
And it all boils down to range anxiety its amazing watching people drive a EV flat out then they go below 50 % and drive like a nana in fear of not getting home.

Cheers Kiwi

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Oct 04 2016 4:10pm

^^^^Understood.
I guess its expecting too much these in days of global business and vehicle sales, to expect some form of agreed common world standard for testing performance, range, safety, etc etc.
Much of it (range) is done on a rolling road similator anyway, so its just politics etc preventing it.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by adam333 » Nov 28 2016 9:44pm

Nah... VW is only a threat to the environment...

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by ecycler » Nov 30 2016 11:22pm

I agree with Luke on his point about Tesla being smart with their battery production, but VW has much more electric tech than anyone on this thread has acknowledged. They successfully proved themselves 3 years ago with the Porsche 918. They immediately had 918 people purchase these things at $1M each. A quick $1B for this bit of R&D!

This car easily beats the new Tesla P100D in a straight line and absolutely crushes it on a track - despite everyone saying the P100D is the quickest/fastest production car in the world. The 918 is also a hybrid carrying the extra weight of an ICE engine. Give VW a few more years to appropriate this tech in mass production at more cost conscious levels (remember the Tesla S and X are not cheap either) and they can easily compete. They know how to a poop out a bunch of cars and do it at all levels from golfs to Lambos and Porsches - we will see if Tesla can ramp up to their levels. I truly hope so, but it is absolutely fair to say VW has the bookends to compete with them already.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 30 2016 11:32pm

ecycler wrote:I agree with Luke on his point about Tesla being smart with their battery production, but VW has much more electric tech than anyone on this thread has acknowledged. They successfully proved themselves 3 years ago with the Porsche 918. They immediately had 918 people purchase these things at $1M each. A quick $1B for this bit of R&D!

This car easily beats the new Tesla P100D in a straight line and absolutely crushes it on a track - despite everyone saying the P100D is the quickest/fastest production car in the world. The 918 is also a hybrid carrying the extra weight of an ICE engine. Give VW a few more years to appropriate this tech in mass production at more cost conscious levels (remember the Tesla S and X are not cheap either) and they can easily compete. They know how to a poop out a bunch of cars and do it at all levels from golfs to Lambos and Porsches - we will see if Tesla can ramp up to their levels. I truly hope so, but it is absolutely fair to say VW has the bookends to compete with them already.

From Wikipedia: The Spyder is powered by a naturally aspirated 4.6-litre V8 engine, developing 608 metric horsepower (447 kW), with two electric motors delivering an additional 279 metric horsepower (205 kW) for a combined output of 887 metric horsepower (652 kW). The 918 Spyder's 6.8 kWh lithium-ion battery pack delivers an all-electric range of 19 km (12 mi) under EPA's five-cycle tests.[1]



Does making a 279hp 12-mile range 6kWh EV mean you're somehow ahead of Tesla in any technology metric?
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by ecycler » Dec 01 2016 12:32am

Does making a 279hp 12-mile range 6kWh EV mean you're somehow ahead of Tesla in any technology metric?
Only if all that matters is electric motor power output and the total capacity of the pack. Those two things they will easily reconfigure for other applications when range and weight tradeoffs are different and additionally with recent improvements in the energy density of cells like the P100D.

One impressive thing about the vehicle is how much performance they are getting out of such a small pack. I know of anyone on this board you can appreciate that as well as the other substantial innovations to get an ICE engine to work fluidly with two electric motors, a watercooled pack, their own 'speed charging' system, the low 3,600lbs weight, the computer controlled drivetrain to seamlessly integrate these components, etc.

My point is simply that Tesla is not the only company making fast cars with electric motors and VW has been at this longer than credited. They developed some extreme technology and sold this car long before the diesel fiasco or 'insane' or 'ludicrous' modes existed with little reason other than to pioneer hybrid electric technology. (If you don't count the LaFerrari as motivation for Porsche) If Tesla was smart they would partner with VW. They supply the batteries, badass software, and some of their developments and VW provides plants, manufacturing and distribution capability, and throws in some extra tech they have developed along the way.
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Punx0r » Dec 01 2016 6:40am

I suspect an all-electric version of the 918 would be easier to produce than the current hybrid system. Rather than having to get ICE and EV to play nicely together they'd just scale up the EV parts of the system. I get ecycler's point here: they've successfully developed scalable EV drivetrain technology.

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by adam333 » Dec 01 2016 12:30pm

VW also succeeded at making cars running on "clean diesel"... So developing efficient EV should be very easy for them.

Btw, It's retarded to pay 1M$ to drive 12 miles of Electric range.

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Punx0r » Dec 01 2016 1:07pm

I'm not sure how knowledge/experience of cheating on an ICE emission test usefully transfers to any aspect of the performance of a pure EV?

I do agree that would be foolish (and unlikely) if someone looking for a practical EV bought a 918 to use solely as an EV.

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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by Hillhater » Dec 01 2016 4:15pm

Punx0r wrote:I'm not sure how knowledge/experience of cheating on an ICE emission test usefully transfers to any aspect of the performance of a pure EV?......
Well it does demonstrate that they have some very cunning software engineers ! :lol: :lol:
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Re: 600km range VW EV threat to Tesla ?

Post by ecycler » Dec 01 2016 6:03pm

Hillhater wrote:
Punx0r wrote:I'm not sure how knowledge/experience of cheating on an ICE emission test usefully transfers to any aspect of the performance of a pure EV?......
Well it does demonstrate that they have some very cunning software engineers ! :lol: :lol:
LOL ...and they aren't afraid to take some risks which is a necessity for innovation! :lol:
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