I need an electric TOAD....

We’re seriously shopping a TOAD (tow behind RV) car and we’re only considering full electric. I believe the LEAF might be able to be flat towed with some careful preparations? But, finding a tow bar bracket seems next to impossible. Versa bracket might work but there’s strong chance it won’t?

My favorite car for this would be Fiat 500E and there’s lotsa tow brackets for the gasser models. My roadblock is determining if the car can be flat towed? Very little info about the drivetrain but worse case, why can’t I just leave the electric car in drive or neutral with it ON?

No manufacturer approves flat towing of their EV models yet but I think that's mostly CYA.

Has anyone poked around a Fiat 500E enough to know if this is a possibility?

Does any EV have a "neutral" drive position ??
I dont know of any, and wonder what the implications of extended tow/driving of the motor.
At the least i would expect considerable drag, and probably heat generated in the windings.....but maybe worse ? :?
Maybe a simple 2wheel, braked, tow dolly would be the go ?

Hillhater said:

Does any EV have a "neutral" drive position ??
I dont know of any, and wonder what the implications of extended tow/driving of the motor.
At the least i would expect considerable drag, and probably heat generated in the windings.....but maybe worse ? :?
Maybe a simple 2wheel, braked, tow dolly would be the go ?

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Many converted manual transmission cars/trucks can obviously disconnect from the motor but those are unique one-off constructions. I’ve not ruled that out yet….

But on factory EV’s I don’t have a problem with the motor and speedometer racking up towing miles. Surely the motor can handle 100k miles of rotation, powered or unpowered? Of course the towing miles on speedometer would be crazy for warranty and service. I understand why factories wouldn’t endorse flat towing.

However, I learned something about the 500E which employs technology to prevent the driver or passenger from exiting the vehicle at slow speed.

Pg 10 from this 2015 owners manual: file:///Users/AirMac/Downloads/2015-FIAT-500e-UG-3rd-TwoUpCover.pdf



Auto Park

The Auto Park feature automatically places the vehicle into PARK if there is any indication that the driver may leave the vehicle while the drive mode indicator is in the D (DRIVE), N (NEUTRAL) or R (REVERSE) modes.

Auto Park is enabled under the following conditions:
– READY mode (12 Volt ON and High Voltage ON).
– Vehicle speed is below 2 mph (3 km/h).

NOTE:
• Auto Park feature only occurs once per key cycle.
• Auto Park is disabled above 2 mph (3 km/h) and the drive mode range will be maintained.

The instrument cluster will display an Auto Shift To Park message and chime once when Auto Park action occurs.

Mode Of Operation With Key ON

Auto Park will be engaged when the drive mode is in DRIVE, NEUTRAL or REVERSE and the following conditions are detected:

• Seat Belt is unlatched
• Brake pedal is released
• Driver's door is ajar
• Vehicle speed is below 2 mph (3 km/h)

Mode Of Operation With Key OFF Auto Park will engage as you turn off the key while in gear/neutral and speed is less than 2 mph (3 km/h).

This is a major PROBLEM for towing in N since the Auto Park feature will engage below 2MPH.

Well, I guess a solution is to flat tow in D (seatbelts latched) and never Reverse? Maybe slow Reverse in D isn’t that big of deal while in D? Leave hill assist OFF…

Too bad they created “Auto Park” mode for a seemingly lame problem?

And maybe the Park actuator can be hacked?

The Park override found on pg 72 appears to reset each time the system is cycled ON.

I’m very close to buying a cheap used 500E, adapting a tow bracket and carefully test it out. Rig one of my RC video cameras and TX/RX up inside the cockpit to monitor what’s happening?

Even if I seriously screwed it up, they’re not that much money and if I could solve the challenges of flat towing it would be the nearly perfect Electric TOAD for many RV’ers.

2 wheel dollies are fine for occasionally hauling a car here/there. Trouble is where to stow it at home and parked/camping or visiting densely populated areas? My coach is already 40’ so not much room to spare in most campsites.

You might want to verify with a dealer or the manufacturer, or someone else who has one, but the list below sounds like an "and" list, meaning all of those conditions must be met at the same time for it to perform key-on-autopark.

If so, perhaps you could tow it in key-on mode, even if you can't do it in key-off mode.

Ykick said:

Auto Park will be engaged when the drive mode is in DRIVE, NEUTRAL or REVERSE and the following conditions are detected:

• Seat Belt is unlatched
• Brake pedal is released
• Driver's door is ajar
• Vehicle speed is below 2 mph (3 km/h)

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Flat towing needs the wheels to steer i believe ?
How does a tow bracket forcing the wheels to steer affect electric/hydraulic steering systems on EVs ?

Hillhater said:

Flat towing needs the wheels to steer i believe ?
How does a tow bracket forcing the wheels to steer affect electric/hydraulic steering systems on EVs ?

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Good question. Majority of highway miles never really turn the front wheels so I don’t think it would be too much of a problem. I know some TOAD people add an elastic strap to help return the steering wheel to center.

One thing about all Fiat 500’s they don’t use a locking steering wheel. I could just go with a gasser, manual transmission and have a great TOAD but the electric would be super cool and useful for our household.

At the price point of these used 2013 500E’s I’m willing to experiment even if it results in significant damage. Nothing that can’t be fixed and if it does total something I’ll just part it out.

what would be really neat is if you can utilize the TOADs re-gen braking somehow to assist the rigs brakes and feed power to the EV pack and maybe even the RV batteries . But that would need some smart Ebrake wiring or wireless connection to the EVs controls ??
just a random thought...

The possibilities/opportunities would be truly incredible for electric TOADs. An ideal marriage if there ever was one - RV’s with generator, towing capabilities, and need for battery power storage, etc. Excellent way to explore/test home-vehicle energy interfaces in these early stages of R&D.

The Warranty issue would prevent me from flat towing.

I am guessing that a Dealer would not believe you that you are out of warranty but did not drive the car much.
And/Or
You go to sell the car and the new buyer would not believe you, that you do not have less mileage than what you are showing.

Also
What is the Warranty peroid and milage on a Electric Car in the State where you buy it ?

California has 100,000 miles , by law. If you Buy in California but reach 96k in another state , I was told that that states dealer has to honor the California Warranty milage.

Any solar on the roof of the RV? Add that to the mix!

A couple weeks ago we had a power outage, and as all my grid tied solar, wind, and hydro (by design) systems shutdown when the grid goes down (much more efficient that way with no batteries involved, the other 99.9999% of the time when the grid is up) and I was right in the middle of doing my taxes in my basement office. Adding things up for the accountant anyway. I backed the Plug in Prius up and plugged in the little 400 watt inverter and ran a extension cord down the stairs and voila, continued working.

One thing about a TOAD (I often tow a RAV4 behind my crane), is you can't backup, at all, without the front wheels getting all hinky. I had to point out that fact to a port of entry/weigh station geek once who wanted me to back up 20' to go across the scales again, wasn't going to happen. Having just spent a couple weeks trailer shopping (ending up buying a 12' dump bed trailer to haul my Kubota tractor around in, plus haul dirt and gravel) it came to my attention they have some pretty neat tilt bed (different then dump bed) trailers of about any size you need. You pull a pin in front and it auto tilts up, you drive on, no ramps needed, and it gently settles down and you put the pin back in, super quick and simple. Plus you'd have a trailer for other uses if needed. I almost went with the tilt bed concept, but ended up figuring the ability to be able to dump whatever made the dump bed the way to go. When I sold my old Kubota the guy drove up with one of those little tilt bed trailers and it was SO easy, and super quick, to use, I still kind of want one.

Yes, I do have solar but only about 100W at the moment. More to follow once I figure out what to do with an internet satellite dish on the roof I no longer need/want.

Good to know about reversing TOADs in practice. Maybe I’ll just tow a 500E in D with the seatbelt latched and avoid Reverse? Let regen do it’s thing until the pack is topped off?

Unfortunately, trailer is out as an option. Dolly or flat-bed, I simply don’t have room to store 98% of the time.

As far as warranty is concerned, manufacturer warranty is 4 years, 50,000 miles for 2013 models (it went up for later model years) but that’s pretty much a non-issue. In fact, many of the cheapest 500E’s are close or near 50k miles anyway so I’m probably gonna buy the cheapest turd I can find for initial testing/exploration of this crazy TOAD notion.

California requires battery warranties between 8-10 years and blah, blah miles but again I really don’t care about ever redeeming anything unless it’s clearly a manufacturing defect. And even then, I’ll likely take care of whatever I need to take care of and handle battery service on my own terms, if required.

Here's the big "Avocado" to get an idea of what I'm working with -

Yeah, the front wheels will immediately cock sideways and put one hell of a load on the front end if one persists in trying to back up. The geometry of the front end ensures this! It gets really interesting pulling into a gas station or wherever, and hoping you don't have to back up. Then again, when I have been in that situation, I just jump out and unhook and drive the car out separate, pretty quick and easy I guess. That is one huge beast of an RV, can't you find room inside somewhere for that little Fiat? Joking.... but really, an engineered lift on the rear end, like I've seen some Harley riders have, would be an interesting challenge.

Sounds like time for an RC servo system controling a friction drive on the TOAD's steering wheel.

I also keep a short pry bar handy, as unlike pulling a regular trailer, pulling a car often results in a bit more bind at the hitch. I often find that unless the crane and the car are both straight and on level ground, when I go to undo the hitch I need a little persuader. All in all, pulling a TOAD is a bit different beast then a simple trailer. Hooking them up is a bitch, as there is no play, you need to drive up just right, then get out and flip the tow bar down and see how close you are. Then flip it back up, re position if needed, and get out and check it again. Unlike a light trailer where you can just pick up the tongue and shift it around, the tow bar is rigid left/right. Being on level ground makes this all a LOT easier, I usually will intentionally position a bit short, get out, leaving the car in neutral, then see what I need, then after turning the wheel a bit either way I'll pull the car the last few inches. Level pavement=easy. Sloped gravel=you have to nail it dead on, usually requiring several in and outs to get it right. All this as compared to the quick and easy tilt bed trailer drive right on feature is why I suggested it, too bad you don't have room to store one. Repeatably hooking a TOAD up (I do it several times a day sometimes) gets old, having a helper SOMETIMES makes it easier!

Good description of life with a TOAD. Thanks!

Definitely sounds like some RC video stuff might come in handy? Not only to monitor what’s happening inside the TOAD but I bet a tow bar camera would help line things up similar to docking spacecraft or mid-air refueling?

My dad often TOAD his F250 Powerstroke 4X4 with this coach. He once used the connected truck to pull the coach out of an ice patch he’d driven onto and was stuck.

I’m searching used Fiat 500E’s - damn prices gone up a bit but I’ll find a the right one and see if a gasser tow bar can be adapted or custom build something?

Probably spend a ridiculous amount of money on everything and watch it not work or blow-up? LOL…. Oh well, it sure will be worth it if it can work out.

Would the "tennis ball on an antenna" trick work to help line up the hitch?

amberwolf said:

Would the "tennis ball on an antenna" trick work to help line up the hitch?

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Probably help but from what craneplaneguy describes it sounds like precision alignment is critical and there's literally no "wiggle room". I know my dad got pretty good hitching the 4X4 but I might try an RC camera and video monitor to hit it perfectly every time.

Thread is a bit old? Any updates? I know some Canadians that use a Chevy Volt as a TOAD. They charge it at RV parks and use very little gas.

Well, I guess it's an update that you spell it 'Tow'd.' When I've known people to tow the cars are worry about mileage some took to crawilng under and pulling the cable loose from the transmission.

My best friend's dad used to unhook the speedo cable, chuck it into a drill, tape up the drill trigger and run it overnight to roll back the mileage.