What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Electric cars, trucks, ATVs, NEVs - things bigger than a motorcycle.
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MitchJi   1 GW

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What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 11 2018 12:54pm

Jay Leno episodes on the Ford GT and corvette Z1.

IMO they prove my contention that what is preventing Ford and GM from building great EV’s is their lack of vision, not engineering ability except for figuring out how to produce affordable battery packs, which boils down to lack of vision.


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The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Quinc   100 W

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by Quinc » Dec 11 2018 6:17pm

The answer to your question is money. Once/if the profits are there they will build them. Right now they make way too much money in trucks and suv's.

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by neptronix » Dec 11 2018 6:53pm

Basically yeah.
Ford is essentially in the compliance game.
Chevy has one foot in the compliance game and another in making actually decent EVs.

But nobody's buying either, really. Tesla sells 5-10 times more Model 3's than GM sells their Chevrolet Bolt.

https://insideevs.com/november-2018-u-s-ev-sales-recap/

The new Nissan Leaf is quite a flop, too. Probably from all the stories of previous generations falling short on the battery quality, and no long range model on offer.

1000-2000 units a month is usually where an automaker will axe a car entirely.
The only way to compete with Tesla is to make an exceptional car. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet really produce exceptional cars.

It might be the German brands that finally give Tesla some real competition.

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by Hillhater » Dec 11 2018 9:26pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 11 2018 6:53pm
The only way to compete with Tesla is to make an exceptional car. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet really produce exceptional cars.
Traditional car makers business mosel is high volume, low price, healthy profit margin.
Currently no one makes any money from EVs, certainly not Tesla, and GM etc dont even try to sell theirs in volume because they lose $$s on each one.
So you either have to go for a high cost /low volume "figurehead" car to cover cost at least, but there is still no volume profit in that either.
It needs lower cost components (batterys, electronic drives, etc) before the big manufacturers will willingly get involved...At least whilst there is still money to be made in the ICE market !
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by LeftieBiker » Dec 12 2018 1:41am

Currently no one makes any money from EVs, certainly not Tesla, and GM etc dont even try to sell theirs in volume because they lose $$s on each one.
It appears that Nissan makes money on the Leaf, especially in Europe. That's the advantage to using one platform for 7+ years.

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by bigmoose » Dec 12 2018 10:31am

Its not about vision but about Return On Investment. The european market and mindset is very different than the USA. Its all about the distances and population density.

I'm a rural guy in the USA. Always have been, and Lord willing, always will be. I live where there is 3 months of that white stuff and temperatures below freezing. ... there are two Chevy Tahoe's in my garage these days...

I am 100% against governments forcing compliance, to me that is fascism. The market determines the winners in my world. When the market need is there, the products will appear, and they will solve the problem that developed economically.

BTW GM just shut down the plant in OH (Lordstown) that made the Volt on the Cruise chassis. Looks like that experiment has come to an end.
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by Dauntless » Dec 12 2018 3:45pm

The order of thimgs is that they don't know how, currently. Learning how, all the R&D doesn't seem justified beyond the government trying to pass laws demanding they exist. Too much R&D will only encourage the government.

It's really the same question as to why you don't put all your kids, grandkids, etc. on a plane and fly them to Disneyland. The high cost of getting them from here to there when there's no net return. Saying you have reason to want it doesn't cover the cost. But people will try to argue around that because it's what they want
Last edited by Dauntless on Dec 13 2018 8:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 12 2018 4:23pm

Always an pleasure and honor to see you Bigmoose.

Most of the decision maker position folks at these companies are ICE/Hybrid legacy mindset folks who viewed EVs as the burdensome and financially costly compliance requirement to sell their gas cars into California.

If you have two boats, you might do fine in either one of them, if you try to go putting just one foot in each boat... :-)
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by billvon » Dec 12 2018 6:48pm

MitchJi wrote:
Dec 11 2018 12:54pm
What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?
Ironic given that GM made the first true production EV in the US (the EV1.) Although people around here have been fairly enamored of their Bolts.
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by Hillhater » Dec 12 2018 7:32pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Dec 12 2018 1:41am
.... It appears that Nissan makes money on the Leaf, especially in Europe. That's the advantage to using one platform for 7+ years.
Making money off electric cars has been a problem traditional manufacturers, which could explain why there was no rush to build them in large numbers. For instance, FCA's CEO, Sergio Marchionne, declared that his company would make an EV the moment they became profitable and famously asked people not to buy the Fiat 500e because the Italian brand was losing money with it.

Similarly, it was estimated - though never confirmed - that General Motors is also losing a few thousands of dollars with every Bolt hatchback it sells, but was forced to drop the asking price to be able to compete with the Model 3.

The Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi alliance, however, thinks it may be the only one that has managed to make EVs profitable. Its CEO, Carlos Ghosn, told CNBC: "We are probably the most advanced carmaker in terms of costs of electric cars and we have announced already in 2017 that we are probably the only carmaker who's starting to make money selling electric cars."
“We are getting there,” Ghosn said. “Are we amortizing and depreciating everything we have spent? No. But if you look at the margin of profit – the direct cost of the car and the revenue of the car – we are getting into positive, which is good for this technology.”
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/rena ... 23592.html

So.... They COULD make "compelling" (??) EVs , but they wont bother until the market allows them to make a profitabe business case for doing it.
Standard successful business practice, ...Produce what the Market demands,...NOT what you think it wants.
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by bigmoose » Dec 12 2018 8:35pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Dec 12 2018 4:23pm
Always an pleasure and honor to see you Bigmoose.

Most of the decision maker position folks at these companies are ICE/Hybrid legacy mindset folks who viewed EVs as the burdensome and financially costly compliance requirement to sell their gas cars into California.

If you have two boats, you might do fine in either one of them, if you try to go putting just one foot in each boat... :-)
As always, love you Luke! (nohomo) :) Yep got two boats, have had two Tahoes since 1997 one for me, one for the wifey... before that we had a Tahoe and a 1 ton Ford dump truck... part of the ol' guys "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." You see, I burn my fuel that way, others do it in planes commuting around the globe... In my view, to each his own and the real enemy is centralized government... but that is just an ol' guys opinion here in the 4th quarter.
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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by LeftieBiker » Dec 13 2018 8:33am

The real enemy is human nature. We have evolved (or, in your case, of course, been created) to destroy ourselves because we aren't still being eaten by lions on the plains of Africa. Good joke, God(s)!

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by neptronix » Dec 13 2018 12:23pm

Welcome back Bigmoose, but i wanna see your electric vehicles here, not your pair of fuel sucker 9000's :mrgreen:
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 13 2018 1:23pm

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 11 2018 9:26pm
neptronix wrote:
Dec 11 2018 6:53pm
The only way to compete with Tesla is to make an exceptional car. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet really produce exceptional cars.
Currently no one makes any money from EVs, certainly not Tesla, and GM etc dont even try to sell theirs in volume because they lose $$s on each one.
So you either have to go for a high cost /low volume "figurehead" car to cover cost at least, but there is still no volume profit in that either.
Are you crazy 😜?! Tesla is currently making over 20% on every M3 they sell and close to 25% on the MS-MX!
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Please consider using our referral code https://ts.la/lynnem96959 to get one thousand miles of free Supercharging.

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 13 2018 1:30pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 12 2018 6:48pm
MitchJi wrote:
Dec 11 2018 12:54pm
What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?
Ironic given that GM made the first true production EV in the US (the EV1.) Although people around here have been fairly enamored of their Bolts.
Tesla is currently the fifth in number of cars sold in the US, and they are still ramping production. How many Bolts does Chevy sell?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Please consider using our referral code https://ts.la/lynnem96959 to get one thousand miles of free Supercharging.

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 13 2018 1:39pm


So.... They COULD make "compelling" (??) EVs , but they wont bother until the market allows them to make a profitabe business case for doing it.
Standard successful business practice, ...Produce what the Market demands,...NOT what you think it wants.

Following in the footsteps of Kodak and Blackberry. Tesla had over 400k reservations on the first day of the reveal of the M3. Ford has stopped producing sedans in the US and Chevy is closing plants and laying off employees.

When Tesla is producing MY’s and pickups Ford will most likely go bankrupt unless they are bailed out or bought out.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Please consider using our referral code https://ts.la/lynnem96959 to get one thousand miles of free Supercharging.

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 13 2018 3:50pm


Tesla’s Model 3 deliveries in the US have reached new highs recently, but the European market could be even more lucrative, with Tesla recently reporting: “The mid-sized premium sedan market in Europe is more than twice as big as the same segment in the US. This is why we are excited to bring Model 3 to Europe early next year.”
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Please consider using our referral code https://ts.la/lynnem96959 to get one thousand miles of free Supercharging.

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by Punx0r » Dec 13 2018 4:03pm

About time. They'll clean up with the M3 if pricing is roughly in line with U.S. pricing.

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MitchJi » Dec 14 2018 11:18am

Somewhat relevant:
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3 ... -brothers/

A recent expose published by The New York Times outlines an active campaign to roll back the country’s existing vehicle emissions rules. Earlier this year, the US government laid out a plan that aims to ease fuel efficiency standards in the country. The movement’s central point is simple — since America is so awash in oil, the country no longer needs to worry about energy conservation.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


Buying a new Tesla? Please consider using our referral code https://ts.la/lynnem96959 to get one thousand miles of free Supercharging.

The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: What’s stopping Ford and GM from building compelling EV’s?

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jan 02 2019 2:39pm

What' stopping them? The need to show a profit every quarter, otherwise investors get jittery. They keep fighting the previous war. They would rather change the playing field via lobbying than sticking their necks out. They would rather buy technology after someone else proves there is a market for it than investing in the future. CEOs with only a 2-4yr outlook (just long enough for them to get their golden parachute).

So a private company run as a startup with a CEO who doesn't need a salary has all the advantages with none of the disadvantages. Hence Tesla.

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