E-Folder project

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » May 15, 2012 9:59 am

Hi. So i got this wee nice scooter for 15USD. Need to electrify it. I need to get a 12" hub motor wheel. I need 30kph speed. The Dropout for the rear wheel is 86 or something mm. Any suggestions? Battery most likely will be headway pack of 10ah capacity and not gonna be used as perfomance scooter.
Here is the toy:
Image

and folded

Image
Thanx

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by sk8norcal » May 15, 2012 4:34 pm

that's a sidewalker micro,
http://www.sidewalkerscooters.com/models.htm

here's one with rc motor
http://gregg.berkholtz.net/wiki/ewalker

12"hub motor
http://www.czbrushlessmotors.com
narrowest is 100mm

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by melodious » May 16, 2012 10:18 am

I'd change the deck too, unless your used to single footing or the double sidestep. Nice find for 15 smackeroos!
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
42" dual diagonal Eskateboard @6s & 90mm wheels
Next: eMTB @10-12s & 8"-12" pneumatic wheels; Got Strapped? d-(',')z

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » May 17, 2012 4:50 am

Thanks for the info, but is there a 12" hub motor to take me at 25-30kmh speeds? Another one, can i try and feed 48V to 36V motor like this one: http://www.bmsbattery.com/hub-motor/178 ... 2-rim.html? I calculate around 16kmh 36V and 21kmh at 48V. Am i missing something here?

Where would be best place to look for tires for that scooter?

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » May 17, 2012 5:23 am

sk8norcal wrote:that's a sidewalker micro,
http://www.sidewalkerscooters.com/models.htm

here's one with rc motor
http://gregg.berkholtz.net/wiki/ewalker

12"hub motor
http://www.czbrushlessmotors.com
narrowest is 100mm
That was a nice project. I am going for something cheaper and less complicated thou. Perhaps you know what airless tires he used? i like the look of them. Also is there difference in using airless tires regarding drag/performance?

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by sk8norcal » May 17, 2012 11:48 am

AFAIK, they have worse rolling resistance vs air...

http://www.airfreetires.com/shopping/c-10-12-inch.aspx

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

I was going through different parts, was thinking on doing RC conversion but then saw this motor kit: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... emium.html
What if i pair it with this wheel assembly: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/sc12x21corew.html and use 54 tooth sprocket? I found a online calc and top speed i would get is ~33kph? Would that be correct? would this reduction be sufficient to climb hills? Thanks

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Hi. Today i have bought two of these "bad boys" for 25USD:
Image
I know they are crap but there are few bits and peaces i can use. First, there is this 24V 300W motor. And here is the question i need help with. Can i run this motor at 500W safe (I will get 500W controller)? What reduction ratio should i use for 12" wheel, i need balanced performance? I will be using something 8S 20AH of A123. That will give me 29.2v hot.
Thanks

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by amberwolf » Nov 03, 2012 3:03 am

agniusm wrote: Can i run this motor at 500W safe (I will get 500W controller)?
Maybe for short bursts. Probably not continuously. If it is the typical Unite brushed motor, like was in the nearly-identical-looking ScootNGo I had the carcass from years back, it may not even take 250W continously. :lol: I actually smoked my motor trying various experiments with it, putting definitely more than 250W thru it, but I can't recall now quite how much I exceeded it's limits by.

IIRC, they can get kinda hot even in their original application on those scooters, so you'd probably have to ventilate it and force-air-cool it to double it's power output.

Since you have two, you could experiment.... ;)


One thing: If you really want double power output, you would want to double the voltage, not the current, as it's more likely to survive a doubled voltage than a doubled current, especially if it's a brushed motor.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 04, 2012 9:36 am

Thanks mate. I got these scooters for 25 bucks so it was worth it. I thought i will try and build something from scraps (except battery, controller and BMS). This is what i bought:
Image
Image
Strangely one scooter had 250W controller and the other 200W. Both had the same motors, MY1016 but the motors appearance is different:
One like this one:
Image
the other like this one:
Image
I have lots of used stuff i picked up from scrapyard i will use. I thought i will use one motor for my brothers bike and the other for this folding scooter.
First i will work on brothers bike and i need to figure out reduction. I was thinking of using existing sprockets off the scooter on 12" wheel. I will put 20" at front. This is similar to what i want: Image
I wander if 5 to 1 reduction is good enough for 12" wheel?
I dont want to go 36V as this require more cells and this is sort of budget build.
Thanks

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by amberwolf » Nov 05, 2012 3:06 am

agniusm wrote:One like this one:
the other like this one:
They both are still essentially identical; I think mine looked more liek the top one, but they're typical cheap brushed motors that probably can't be pushed too hard for too long, at least not without cooling modifications.

I wander if 5 to 1 reduction is good enough for 12" wheel?
What size wheel does it have now, and what reduction does it have now? Based on the virtually identical ScootNGo I'd guess it's probably 11T on the motor and 60 or 80T on the wheel, with 10" wheels? maybe 8" wheels? So 6:1 to 8:1 would be better with the smaller wheel; you may need even more reduction for a larger wheel. If the original is an 8" wheel, and going to 12", then assuming 8:1 original reduction you might need 12:1 on the new wheel to keep the same stress level. Otherwise you're increasing the power needed and stress on the motor by quite a lot, by using only 5:1--more than twice the power needed and so the currents will be more than twice as high. Hard on the windings, brushes, commutator, and the supply wires (and once you get it hot enough for long enough, even the magnets might have issues, though I never hurt my magnets, just the rest of it!).

If you gear it too high, you're going to put an awful lot of stress on the motor at startup from a stop. If you pedal first and then engage the motor, or do both at the same time, pedalling pretty hard at first, it should take some of the stress off the motor at startup.

Mine melted/burned up because of that kind of problem, most likely. first it melted the two input wires to the motor together (they are ziptied together inside the motor, pretty tightly) and the insulation melted letting the conductors touch, blowing FETs and drivers in the controller. (I did this a lot :oops:). Then the motor windings themselves actually burned thru. If you go thru my old http://electricle.blogspot.com site you can find pics and stuff. :lol:

The controllers are probably extremely simple LM339-comparator-based, similar to the much-better-designed (yet still simple) 2QD from http://4QD.co.uk . Easy to repair; usually the FETs and the driver transistors blow up. I think I posted the schematic of mine I got from someone else over on that blog, if you ever need it. Probably is in the 2007 / early 2008 posts, just before I really beefed it up using external drivers and FETs on a big heatsink the motors were mounted on for my DayGlo Avenger's first successful friction drive. :)

You could upgrade the FETs and drivers on the controller to handle the higher power levels needed easy enough. Parallel a few IRFB3077s on each leg of the half-bridge and heatsink them well, with gate driver transistors capable of supplying enough current to quickly switch them, and I expect you could make a 1000W controller easily. ;) Poor little motors wouldn't stand a chance. :lol:


If you could fit both motors on one bike, you could have them share the load, passing the chain over each one in a single loop, and then tune the throttle input to each controller (one on each motor) so that each motor gets the same amount of power delivered to it at the same time, so one doesn't take up most of the load.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by Chalo » Nov 05, 2012 5:25 am

They're brushed PMDC motors; they can easily be placed in parallel on the same controller with no ill effects.
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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 05, 2012 12:44 pm

I will need to look in to reduction and perhaps make it for higher speed a little as i will make it lighter than original with lead.Here is couple pics of progress, made it a little longer and box for all the stuff:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
The original scooter was designed for 22kph, if i can get between 25-30kph i should be happy enough.
I am building 2 bikes at once with these motors. Folding scooter and a bike for my brother. He is getting better controller and if the motor will be to weak, he's gonna buy 500W one.
I started wandering what cells to get, not to break the bank. On this folding scooter max i will draw is 15 amps. I need advice on cylindrical cells. A123 are too expensive but i would like to go LIFEPO4. Headways are too expensive for this build as well. I need ~10AH pack. So i guess 0.5C discharge, something like 2.3AH for 8S4P or 1.9AH for 8S5P?
Thanks

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by amberwolf » Nov 06, 2012 2:58 am

Chalo wrote:They're series wound brushed PMDC motors; they can easily be placed in parallel on the same controller with no ill effects.
As I understand it, "series-wound" refers to a non-PM motor, where the field is coils rather than permanent magnets, and the field and armature are wired in series.


That said, yes, with two identical motors, they coudl be placed in parallel, however any difference in the motors at all means that one of them will end up with higher current thru it, and will "take the load" more than the other one, heating itself more in the process. It's not likely that both will operate exactly the same. It might make no practical difference, but it does make some, and potentially a lot.

In my DayGlo Avenger's friction drive, I tried the motors in series and then in parallel; I think they shared better in series but the system voltage wasn't high enough to make that effective for what I wanted out of them, so I had to run them in parallel, and AFAICT they did not share equally, even though they were as identical as any two motors of the same p/n should be--still slight variations in assembly/etc. to cause current variations. I did not then have equipment or experience to really test that in detail; if I still had both intact motors (one shaft broke) I would like to go back and test this empirically.
agniusm wrote: On this folding scooter max i will draw is 15 amps. I need advice on cylindrical cells. A123 are too expensive but i would like to go LIFEPO4. Headways are too expensive for this build as well. I need ~10AH pack. So i guess 0.5C discharge, something like 2.3AH for 8S4P or 1.9AH for 8S5P?
If you expect to draw 15A and only have a 10Ah pack, that's not 0.5C, that's 1.5C. ;) 0.5C on a 10Ah pack is only 5A.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by Chalo » Nov 06, 2012 3:07 am

amberwolf wrote:
Chalo wrote:They're series wound brushed PMDC motors; they can easily be placed in parallel on the same controller with no ill effects.
As I understand it, "series-wound" refers to a non-PM motor, where the field is coils rather than permanent magnets, and the field and armature are wired in series.
You are right. I think that term was sitting in the same junk drawer and I grabbed it by mistake.

Corrected in the original post for archival value.
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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 06, 2012 3:17 pm

amberwolf wrote: If you expect to draw 15A and only have a 10Ah pack, that's not 0.5C, that's 1.5C. ;) 0.5C on a 10Ah pack is only 5A.
Well, 0.5C a cell, and if you parallel 4 cells that works out as 2C per paralleled group which would be 20amps, good for me.
For paralleling or series the motor i know this stuff but i don't want to run two motors. One reason is bulky, other in series i would need 48V and in parallel they have to match RPM. For the reference you connect 2 motors shafts, spin one up and measure voltage on the other, than swap around and do the same. Compare values, if they are the same or very close, means they should be fine in dual motor setup. I should do the vid on that.

P.S. Checked out reduction on previous setup. It was 11T and 55T so 5:1 reduction on 8.5" wheel. Mine will be 12.5", so i guess i need to do some maths. I have checked one controller and it is 250W and i think has 2 fets. Perhaps modifying shunt for 300W would not damage it???

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 06, 2012 6:17 pm

Ok, trying to do the math. Max motor rpm is 2750 so with 8.5" wheel and 5:1 reduction max speed would be 22.3kmh(14mph) and if i used 12.5" wheel on the same reduction it would be 32.8kmh(20.5mph). I dont know if i can do proportional calculation on speed vs power but if i would go 300W proportion would get me 33.4kph(20.8mph) with 8.5" wheel vs 22.3kmh(14mph)
Going to 8:1 reduction for the 12.5" wheel would get me top speed of 20.56kmh(12.8mph) and upping controller limit to 300W proportionally would allow me to reach speed of 30.8kph(19.2mph).
On the motor they state 11.5 amps and 200W which does not do my math as i get 11.5*24=276W Now if i would pull 300 watts, thats 12.5amps, 1amp more.
Does my math makes sense?

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by amberwolf » Nov 07, 2012 1:49 am

The A and W ratings on the motor are not usually used together, they are separate max figures (at least, often the case). Meaning, you don't want to exceed that A rating for very long, if at all, and same for the total W rating. If you can force-air cool it by ventilating the end near the brushes/commutator, and then setup a fan duct at the other end to use an external fan to suck air thru it (so cool air flows into the brush end where it's hottest) then you can get away with more. how much more depends on multiple things--you'd ahve to experiment.


Power needed for speed doesn't go up linearly; use any of hte bicycle or vehicle speed vs power calculators to figure out what power it will take for the speed you want.

The big issue is that if you regear the system so the motor stays at the same max RPM, but has to spin the wheel faster, now it takes more current for a longer time to reach that speed than it would with the lower gearing. this means the motor will heat up more, and stay hot longer. It might be enough to damage it; you'd probably have to monitor temperatures to know if you need to back off during the initial testing of the system--but you have to build it the way you want first, then regear ti back down again if the way you want it causes too much heat.

This is basically why people like to put hubmotors in small wheels, then put a higher voltage on them to reach the same speed--it essentially lowers the gearing ratio, causing less current draw and for a shorter time to reach the motor RPM where BEMF is cutting back the current flow. The important part is that the current draw drops off faster this way, causing less losses in the motor as heat.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 07, 2012 4:49 pm

I have found some A123 ARP18650M1A 1.2ah cells. They cost 1.10USD per unit if i buy 100pcs. Does this sound like a good deal? I know the only problem i will have is attaching tabs which i can take people do it for 40USD for 100 cels and perhaps some labor to form 8S12P pack.
I think i will leave reduction of 5:1 as per my calculation it gets me to 33kph and ups the power usage to 300W which is 24W more than motor capable and 50W more than controller is capable. Max rating on the motor is 11.5A which at 24volts is 276W. As i mentioned before, one controller is rated at 200W and the other at 250W. So there you go, perhaps this motor is capable of delivering 350W as visual appearance is identical of that 250W and that 200W. I figured out a way to make cooling with airflow through the brushes without making it exposed to rain or splash.

I don't know how you state that power W and current A are not used together as they are related to each other as my two nuts and a stick P=I*V?

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by amberwolf » Nov 08, 2012 3:28 am

agniusm wrote:I think i will leave reduction of 5:1 as per my calculation it gets me to 33kph and ups the power usage to 300W which is 24W more than motor capable and 50W more than controller is capable. Max rating on the motor is 11.5A which at 24volts is 276W. As i mentioned before, one controller is rated at 200W and the other at 250W. So there you go, perhaps this motor is capable of delivering 350W as visual appearance is identical of that 250W and that 200W.
Just becauise they look the same doesn't mean they *are* the same. But it's pretty likely they're similar enough as to not matter--however, what that says to me is that it is just as likely they took a 200W motor and stuck a 250W label on it. ;) Meaning you'd be running it at nearly twice the power it is actually meant for, if running it at 350W. Maybe it'll do it, maybe it won't. You'll have to try it to find out.
I figured out a way to make cooling with airflow through the brushes without making it exposed to rain or splash.
If you can cool the brushes and comm, and the windings, it can definitely take at least a little higher power. How much? Dunno...gotta test that. :)



I don't know how you state that power W and current A are not used together as they are related to each other as my two nuts and a stick P=I*V?
In that equation, yes, but not necessarily in ratings for things. For example, you might have a motor that is rated at 1000W, but also rated at only 20A. It is also rated at 48V, but that is only so that it stays within a certain RPM range at maximum--the voltage rating can often be exceeded by however much you like, even several times higher...but not necessarily so on the W or A limits. Theoretically, you would not want to exceed 20A even if you ran it at a much lower voltage to keep it below the 1000W limit, too, because the higher continuous current could damage the wires (or brushes or commutator in a brushed motor). Whether it actually would, I don't know. Depends on how long you run it above the rating--continous operation above the rating is where failure is expected--bursts above that might be ok--depneds on the device.

Mostly the W limit has to do with how fast you can remove the excess heat from the motor. If you can keep it cool all thru the whole motor, you can just about put whatever power you want thru it until you twist the laminations off the shaft or twist the shaft itself. :lol:

The A limit is another thing: it has to do not just with the current the wires (supply and windings, as well as wires to the brushes, and the brushes and comm segments themselves) can take, but also with saturation of the motor's iron (steel). If you put enough current into it to cause saturation, then most of (or all of) the current above that does is cause lots of heat; it's no longer doing any extra useful work. Whether the rating they give on those motors has anything to do with the saturation limit, I don't know--it might just be the continous current the brushes/comm can take without damage, or even what the supply wires will take without heating so much they melt insulation. Again, if you could keep it cool enough you could still put whatever extra current you want thru it, but that current won't be doing extra work at that point.


These ratings on quality motors are usually set at a point they could run all day, every day, forever, without failing because of the current or power.

But on these little Unite-type motors, it is more likely they are rating them for what they think they can get away with, and I am not sure you could really even run them at their ratings "forever", without a failure directly related to the amount of power or current being put thru them. It even varies from motor to motor, as I have seen a fair bit of quality variation between different units, in teh ones I've had and the ones I've seen posted about here on ES and elsewhere. Some are pretty nice, and some are just disasters waiting to happen. :(

I've seen all sorts of ratings on ebike motors, and some of them are actually reasonable--for instance, the 9C 28xx series is a "500W" motor, but it is easily possible to run it "forever" at twice that without modifications, without failure. Might even go 3x that. There have been other motors, like my little Fusin 350W geared hub, that can take 500W for a little while but not forever, and eventaully will get so hot that the halls can stop working if run above that for any serious amount. Peakks at 1200W are ok but they heat it up quick, and 700W is pretty unhealthy for it--would probably destroy something if I kept going more than a few minutes. Some of the "1000W" unite motors have been run above that ok, and some don't even run at that wattage "forever". (I suspect part of the difference is the current they're run at).



Basically, device ratings are just individual limits, not part of an equation. If you have a FET that can do 150W power dissipation, and is also rated at 75A current, and is also rated at 150V, you cannot combine all those numbers to equal anything using the power equation. They are separate limits, meaning you should not exceed any individual limit. Don't go over 150W total, *and* don't go over 75A, *and* don't go higher than 150V. Exceeding any of the ratings could (probably would, maybe not instantly) damage or destroy the device.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 08, 2012 4:55 pm

Got new wheels and tires
Image
Changed folding direction
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Mounted the motor and made a quick test vid

Still need to balance everything and make chain tensioner.
Image
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All is coming together nicely.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 11, 2012 12:17 pm

Has any one seen 12 inch mud guards/fenders? Cant seem to find some. Need plastic ones

EDIT: Also if i would lack power/speed with this motor what would you suggest for replacement not breaking the bank?
Would these work:
Motor with this Controller?

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 12, 2012 12:44 pm

Have made cover board from marine ply wood.
Image
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Had a razor scooter seat which fits perfect, will put new vinyl, cream color to match scheme. The seat is easily detachable:
Image
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Still need advice on better, more powerful motor.

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by jpgey » Nov 12, 2012 2:49 pm

agniusm wrote: EDIT: Also if i would lack power/speed with this motor what would you suggest for replacement not breaking the bank?
Would these work:
Motor with this Controller?
It looks good to me ! But i'm not an expert !
Why don't you try your motor to the max first, buy only the controller, (and burn the motor while doing a video :twisted: )

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Re: E-Folder project

Post by agniusm » Nov 14, 2012 1:28 pm

Seat prepared for new vinyl:
Image
The board is finished:
Image

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