Reverse-engineering the Alien Power Systems ESCs

So we have been discussing this amongst ourselves for quite a while now about releasing this information to the public but we have now decided to do so.

So what is the Alien Electric speed controller, it is actually a product by Shenzhen Flier Electronic Co., Ltd. (1). This is supported by a disassembly of the firmware and the software that comes with the Alien ESCs. They are not using any special firmware but the program actually contact the Flier Electronics server and downloads the firmware.

We also chose to contact Flier directly and ask them about the models and if they actually produce for Alien. They verified that they indeed manufacture the ESCs for Alien on OEM and that Alien has no customization of their product and indeed just sells their product under their own brand.

If anyone is interested in ordering directly from Flier you can contact them with the link below.

For reference the prices for a single ESC from Flier are:
Twin 8S 120A - $108.00/pcs
Twin 12S 150A - $169.00/pcs
Single 8S 120A - $59.00/pcs
Single 12S 150A - $88.00/pcs

Sources:
(1) http://fliermodel.en.alibaba.com

uhhm... ok... :?

And then?

Just informing people, it is always good to be a informed consumer and know where the stuff come from and who is behind it.

Great find!

I've been trying to do some similar sleuthing to track down the manufacturers of the GNG kit but so far it seems like gngebike.com is responsible for manufacture + sales.

bee said:

Great find!

I've been trying to do some similar sleuthing to track down the manufacturers of the GNG kit but so far it seems like gngebike.com is responsible for manufacture + sales.

Click to expand...

PM us the information that you have and we might help you track it down and figure it out.

it was pretty obvious that they were just reselling the esc if you look at aliexpress you can find the same unit they sell using the same software with a different logo.

zombiess said:

And then?

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LOL, reminds of the scene from "Dude, Where's My Car?"

Reversers or what ever you real account name might be (I suspect this is a shill account),

How can you call what you are doing reverse engineering? It's more Google search engineering.

So can you please post up some of the technical specs of these controllers which have been "reverse engineered" by you.

ECU type?
Control method? Sine? , FOC, 6 step?
Limitations you found?
FETs used.. do they vary between the ECU types?
Amount of time the FETs spend in trans conductance during switching?
Total switch time?
Gate drive voltage?
Chip part numbers?

Yes, you are correct that some of the Alien ESCs are the same as Flier, but you don't know exactly how some of those products came about. I have one of the Alien ESCs and one of the Flier ESCs. Yes they use the same firmware and one is rated for 400A from Flier and the one from Alien is 420A. Biggest difference is size, the flier is less than 1/2 the size of the Alien one and came with a dead fan. I was unable to procure the same ESC from Flier that I purchased from Bruno, but I wasn't trying to get the same one, I had another agenda. They will customize a controller build if you purchase enough quantity (as will many Chinese OEMs) and they have a varying array of choices (I spent some time talking to them).

BTW, I have most of the answers to the questions above that I acquired through testing.

Right now I am working with a manufacturer of a product and giving them technical specs I am after. This same product is available in similar forms, but uses different parts than what I am asking for + I am adding some of my own to make it unique. Many companies work with OEMs because it's expensive to design and build everything yourself and much easier to have it customized to suit your needs if you can build a relationship with that company. If you want to see some of the fun and games involved in getting a product out of China just read my posts in the Alibaba 3000W motor thread. I'm just getting one of these motors for a one off project (no this is not the company I am working with, I sell only Greyborg / Zelena Vozila motors).

Just look at the ever popular Xie Chang controllers on this site. You can buy them from Xie Chang, Keywin, Lyen, Methods, Steveo, Crystalyte, Myself and many other sources, but each is slightly different in finished form.

I just want to post this info because sometimes you think you have found the same thing for cheaper, but it turns out it's not exactly the same, so be careful. I think it was someone on here that thought they were buying a "Cromotor" for cheap from China because the case looked the same but then opened it up and found a skinny stator and magnets on the inside.

mmm interesting, thanks for posting

Ok, since you took the time to make all those claims and ask those questions we might as well answer them. Our intention was never to harm the Flier company or Alien, we just wanted to inform the community. So we will never release the PCB drawings and schematics. But what we can do is answer your questions as much as possible and supply you with all the information that you might possibly want. So here are some information of the layout and components used by the Flier/Alien ESCs:

They use a simple Atmel Atmega8A chip - ATMEGA8A-PU (Mouser ref. 556-ATMEGA8A-PU)

To answer your question about Mosfets, they use the now inactive FQP90N08 for the 120A ESC for ex.

They use the same design for the 60A version of the ESC and it is the same as the 120A and 150A ESC. Just the Mosfets are different.

We have attached the Firmware file for the SkaterEV setup and also a screen shot proof of the disassembly and the information given.
http://pastebin.com/gjcHYuVE
http://s14.postimg.org/6wtrz3xf5/Dissassembly.jpg

I agree with @zombiess the quality you get from various Chinese manufacturers is clearly hit and miss.
I am my self developing a PCB from scratch and I also know from experience that even some of the PCB houses in China very happily copies the designed to other companies and competitors. So I would recommend buying from Bruno since he knows what he is doing and he clearly has spent a lot of time testing the stuff.
As a note I must admit that I have had a lot of help from Bruno when developing my own products so I am a bit biased.
Saying that, the only real reason I would see someone buying from a company like Flier China is because they want the cheapest option and already knows what works.

what is skateEV?

The best thing that you can do if you are going to these lengths is to rewrite the firmware and add in options or improve what is there. That would be great.

I think almost every rc ESC I have seen (not many in person but I read about firmware options) is based on an atmega. Good luck with the assembly, I hate asm.

there was another thread on this earlier,
link for reference
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=52716

Nice, That's pretty cool. I've always wondered what kind of processor board they've used. I was thinking it was something that was common. Didn't know it was the Atmel Atmega 8A. Didn't know all ESCs are based off it either.

I honestly don't see no difference between the Flier and Bruno's ESC. They are exactly the same product and there isn't much customization with Bruno's ESC.

I think that's pretty cool how they were able to program it for ESCs. LOL, I wouldn't know where to start.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=47176&p=794470#p794470

Also someone post that Alien Electronics LTD speed controller, it is actually a product by others company. Well, he discovered the hot water. Joking apart, nothig to say to this guy, i think people already know.
I wish i was able to do ESC, motors, Batteries etc. I'm a distributor and i love to do electric project for give the best and professional supports and advice to my customers. Of course the product i sell are made by other companies. He maybe need also to know that develop products is not easy as he think, and for find the best results between motors, controllers, batteries etc, if you working with an overseas companies, you need to send lots of products you are using, like motors, to find the perfect mach between them, and again, it is not "free". This company was with about 8-9 firmware for their ESC before starting the business relation. Now the list is around 25-30 different firmware. Anyway, just another explanation.

Here an example of "Alien PCB" Used for the big HV ESC, made in MOQ (not cheap)

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If anyone is interested here is the reversed firmware in the assembly format.
http://pastebin.com/YX9jiJt4

Just remember that this type of thing can be a double edged sword. It can be a win for the consumers on one hand being able to purchase something for cheaper, but it can also cause a principal development driver working with the manufacturing company (if they are the designer or not) to become dissuaded in their efforts to push for improved products. These relationships can be tricky. Sometimes there is a short term win but a long term lose. A general consumer will not know any of this information, but now that I have become involved with business and working with Asia and other business owners, I have learned a lot of what happens behind the curtain. I've heard some very interesting stories on my many international flights. I have sat next to many business owners/presidents/ceos of companies while flying coach and had some amazing discussions. I'd say on over 50% of my flights to Asia I sat next to some business person on their way to a business deal / manufacturing facility.

The best scenario is usually when something is hacked allowing aftermarket modification. That often ends up in a win/win scenario, but sometimes a person pushing the companies development of firmware / products (Bruno) can get burned or benefit by offering already modified solutions (I've seen it go both ways).

I bring this up because I am familiar with the resale of products and how some of them even get made in the first place. It usually involves a lot of negotiation and building a relationship with a manufacturer + spending money and time testing to work out issues. While someone might view Bruno or myself as nothing more than a reseller / middle man, they would have no idea of the time and money commitment that was made just to bring a product to market and get it to a reliable and working point. To gain exclusive rights to a product can be very expensive and difficult, especially when different countries are involved.

Just something to think about. I have now seen the other side of how things work and what it takes. I typically go for the cheap, but I balance quality/price. Now that I am more experienced I have added support into that equation as well. I just used the support factor I mentioned to justify my expenditure on an $800 oscilloscope vs a <$500 that would work just as well for me. The $800 has manufacturer firmware updates / bug fixes and the <$500 manufacturer is not known for releasing bug fixes.

Reversers,

Have you looked at the newer designs which utilize TO-263 package FETs?

What do you plan to do with the ASM code? I don't do ASM any more, only ever knew a little, such a pain. Kudos to those that know it and can hack it. I'll stick to high level languages or just basic that natively compiles to machine for high speed

Just a few thoughts:

APS ESC's come at a premium over sites like easytrade, alibaba, and taobao, and admittedly when buying things in GBP, US customers get burned a little. But this is what you are getting for your money:
-Customer support (and good customer support at that)
-A return policy
-A minimum purchase quantity of 1
-An instruction manual
-Guarantee against DOA product (Try to get a refund buying from Alibaba, never gonna happen)

Such stuff is not free. Its kinda like buying a used car. You could go to a dealer and buy CPO, or you could roll the dice and buy joe schmoes camaro. Im interested to hear what people's experiences are buying direct from flier, because who knows.. Maybe they are a cheap and viable alternative to APS, but Im not exactly holding my breath here.

Is there any interest to see a Schematic of a Firmware COMPATIBLE - ESC board, but not an exact copy of the design with updated MOSFETs and all parts exclusively available from Farnell?

Reversers said:

Is there any interest to see a Schematic of a Firmware COMPATIBLE - ESC board, but not an exact copy of the design with updated MOSFETs and all parts exclusively available from Farnell?

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More info never hurts, go ahead please!

Here is a schematic of a ESC that is fully compatible with the Flier/Alien firmware and programs and that has been modified and improved. It is released under GPL v2.



http://s13.postimg.org/5zb4t2d1z/foto_no_exif.jpg

This schematic is released under GPL v2 which means that any usage must be shared and any improvements or adaptations must be shared with fully with the community on a open basis according to the licenses. Any modifications or adaptations must discussed source and make the modified source available freely to all. This is to promote an open community where we all help each other and everyone benefits on the work.

For more info on GPL v2 please look here:
http://choosealicense.com/licenses/gpl-v2

@Reversers

While I still support Bruno fully in his work, I think what you have done here is probably the best option for the community and like my avatar suggests, open source hardware rules, although GPL is not as free and open...

I have decided to do my part for the community and opened up a GitHib account for everyone here to use and contribute to, I choose the GPL v2 license as you mandated and the name OpenESC for this project. If I have time I will try to convert your picture to a Eagle CAD schematic for everyone to modify and play with. Here is the link to the GitHub repo: https://github.com/OpenESC/OpenESC