New twin motor longboard project "Now running"

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New twin motor longboard project "Now running"

Postby recumpence » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:53 am

Hey Guys,

I have been looking into building a butt-board for a while now. But, I have decided to, first, build a normal longboard. I wanted your take on what I will be running;

---As for wheels, I have Abec11 76mm wheels (75A)
---The front truck is a Cindrich 240mm with adjustable plate
---The rear truck I am making from scratch.
---I will be running Maxx Products HC5030-390 motors (these are 50mm wide motors with 65mm long cans rated at 1,500 watts peak). The KV is 390. I am a retailer for these motors and I can get them for $86 each. :)
---The deck will either be a Cindrich CNC honecomb, or I will TIG weld my own together from box section aluminum with carbon fiber filler panels.
---Batteries are 6S Zippy 5,000s (25C)
---Driveline will be 5mm pitch belts 15mm wide.

The questions I have for you guys are;

#1 Transmitter? I have a huge amount of RC experience (I have been involved in RC for 30 years). I was planning on using a standard RC transmitter. I will eventually make a custom small housing for it. But, I wanted your input on this.

#2 ESCs? I can get Castle Creations products at cost. So, I wanted to run them. I know some guys here run Mamba ESCs. I am familiar with programming them (punch control, throttle curve, etc). Do these seem to be the best for this type of application? Cost is not an object for this project. So, let me know what is best, not cheapest.

#3 What is your experience of twin motor systems starting from a stop? I have no problem giving a kick to get it going. I am just curious.

The board will be geared for a maximum speed of around 23mph. I may gear it lower. But, that is the plan for starters.

Oh, lastly, the drive pulleys will not be attached to the rear wheels. They will be ball bearing supported on the round tube surrounding the truck axle. The drive hubs will stay in place when the wheels are removed. That way I can pull each wheel off and they will slide right off the axle without any hardware attached to them. So, the rear wheels will be as easy to swap as the non-driven front wheels. :)

Matt
Last edited by recumpence on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby LEVer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:21 am

1. Definitely go with a car transmitter, it has go, neutral, and brake/reverse...and can be programmed depending on your esc.

2. If I had the money, I'd go with either the Mamba ESC or the Alien Power System that Bruno is selling. APS has an ESC that can drive your two motors. I also check Kershaw Designs, they have a good selection of ESCs.

3. I've only done single brushless RC motors, not dual, and they definitely need to be kick/push started. I believe Bruno is also currently doing a twin 50mm version with his ESC that does not need to be kick started. In my build right now, I have dual brushed motors of 150w each and they start from dead stop. Adding the Planetary Gear Assembly in this page: http://www.electricscooterparts.com/spe ... ckets.html
to RC motors seems like a good idea. Check this article: http://www.instructables.com/id/Electri ... or-Drivet/

Most of the current drive pulleys attached to the wheel can also be easily taken off. Why not just make it a live axle so you can use any wheel you like?
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby torqueboards » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:01 pm

Nice setup. I'm working on my own weld mount hopefully done soon waiting on parts and will get it made locally. I'm going to use GT2 belt 5mm pitch, 15mm wide as well.

#1
Transmitter GT2 seems the best for small size. Wii remote and PS3 remotes are popular. I have yet to try one but want to once I get some time. Don't really like the joystick idea but tired of the huge RC controllers.


#2
If you are going 1 motor and max 8S the Mamba ESC's should be good. I know their of good quality and LaGrange trucks have tested them for a few years now. FlierESC's are great quality ESCs as well. For the price, I'd rather build 2-3 boards and go with FlierESC's better with two motors too.

#3
Twin motor is good from a stop. I think it will be much better with GT2 and less belt slip but haven't tried it yet, soon. It will slip when it's not on flat ground or up a hill. Other then that it works great.

Post some pics and show us your build once you've started. Good luck!
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby Silenthunter » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:48 pm

Matt,

My personal advise to you is to stop asking people on the forum for any advice. You mentioned that you have RC experience - USE IT! Come up with something new and this way maybe all of us with learn something that no one came across.
I know the components are expensive but I personally could buy 2 or even more boards from Boasted Boards already, but I decided to experiment and try different things, make something personalized, something you did.... (I have few boards done and still working on adjusting and changing initial set ups).

We should stop copying from other designs and stop asking each other. There is so much more to learn and discover. I would like to see more new original designs - ideas, something that no one have, discover new challenges and new info!

Variety would help us to prosper and make a better board.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby Topo » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Silenthunter wrote:My personal advise to you is to stop asking people on the forum for any advice...

We should stop copying from other designs and stop asking each other. There is so much more to learn and discover. I would like to see more new original designs - ideas, something that no one have, discover new challenges and new info!


Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of this forum? Not everyone already knows the ins and outs for building this stuff. I for one am not that creative type that is going to come here be able to revolutionize this process. I do however want to be able to build and have/ride an eBoard. Just telling people to stop asking for help and "go figure it out on your own" doesn't really make sense to me. Why is everyone being such hardasses lately??
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby stuntmanmike » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:23 pm

Hey Matt,
I just completed a 2 motor set up with 2 Mamba Monster esc's. Only I used 2-50mm 270kv motors and 6s 5000mah going to both and wow am I surprised at how powerful these little motors are. As far as the Mambas go they are really easy to program w/the Castle link adapter. As I mentioned in my other threads I used the settings from redrockboardshop.com for this,its flawless. I use a Spektrum DX3s Transmitter its not too bulky & it fits the hand very well. I don't even need to push off, its instant acceleration, truly amazing.

***BTW we spoke a few months ago I have that rare Profile DR-1 DH bike I want to use your drive on. I'm still finishing a few other projects but hopefully this winter I'll pull the trigger on that one.
Good luck!
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby sk8norcal » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:27 pm

ok, everyone relax.

Matt is well respected on here,
and have created awesome ebike components for the community, and contributed tremendously.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/shumaker/edrive.htm


Matt, good choice on the 240mm Cindrich front (btw, cindrich is the head cnc guy at kirkham motors, sick cobra replicas!)
I dislike his decks though, pretty, but overly stiff/heavy.
aluminum is not a good deck material.

for your rear truck,
sounds similar to the lagrange idea...
they use these bonded hub thingies..
http://wackyboards.blogspot.com/2012/09 ... board.html

can't wait to see what u come up with...
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby sk8norcal » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:42 pm

recumpence wrote:#3 What is your experience of twin motor systems starting from a stop? I have no problem giving a kick to get it going. I am just curious.


i hear both ways, some say they can get it to be smooth, some still get cogging.

boosted is going with sensored and alien just mentioned they gonna offer sensored motor/esc

I can say that once you experience smooth starting from dead stop, you dont want to go back to having to give it a kick.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby Silenthunter » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:10 pm

Hey Matt,

You got me wrong!!! I didn't meant that!!!

I wanted to say that you already have a great experience R/C and E-bikes....(I don't look at the rating etc crap) and you may know more info than people you are asking or people that will respond to you - regarding electronics!!!

Some people may steer you wrong from your original idea/though and your build will turn in a different direction.

When I started the goped conversion I spent maybe a week or more to read what other people have done and came up with my own idea on how I will proceed with this conversion. (it sucks spend countless hours/days reading and looking for the info since it is poorly organized but this is the best way).

Still have issue that I have to figure out but I am willing to go to the end and I am sure at the end I will enjoy it even more and maybe get to the issues that others didn't.

BTW, LaGrange has the best design so far IMO BUT the only think that I would change is placing more weld on the bracket. Also, great customer service from them. Love it!!!
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:35 pm

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the input.

A couple things I should mention;

#1 I am running two motors rather than one on a live axle because of the differential issues discussed in my "Butt-Board" thread.

#2 The reason I want to make stationary hubs that allow the wheels to be pulled off easily without mounting the pulleys to the wheels is for a couple reasons. First, it does not take any more work to do it this way. If I am making this from scratch anyway, I may as well take that last step and make it different and easier to work on. Second, because the pulley can be made to run much straighter this way. Basically, if you cantelever a pulley far off center from the support bearings (the wheel bearings in a wheel mounted pulley scenerio), you increase the potential for belt issues. My setup will have the drive pulley supported on its own bearing directly in line with the belt. So, the wheel bearings will not affect the belt what-so-ever. This may not seem like a big deal, but as I mentioned before, this is no big deal to change the design from a machining standpoint. It is easy to do and makes the system a bit more finished having separate hubs.

Oh, my background in RC is;

For 4 years I built high-end upgrades for the Lite Machines Corona helicopter (thousands of CNC machined parts over those 4 years) and complete aerobatic (3D) helicopters. If you Google Ballistic Technology Corona helicopter you will see my stuff. I was also into top speed RC car running (126mph is the highest speed I have achieved about 7 years ago). Starting about 4 years ago, I began using RC motors for E-bike drive systems. I believe I am the one responsible for the current craze of RC motors on bikes. :)

Anyway, I have a full machineshop at my disposal, as well as TIG welder, MIG welder, plasma cutter, etc, etc, etc. I can make anything and I understand RC equipment very well. I wanted to have your input because you guys have been into boards longer than I. So, I wanted to find out what works and doesn't work before I buy stuff I do not need.

Oh, this is being done in my spare time. So, I will be dabbling in it a bit here and a bit there.

Matt
Last edited by recumpence on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby torqueboards » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:04 pm

Awesome collection of tools. How did you eventually aquire everything?
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby sk8norcal » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:40 pm

torqueboards wrote:Awesome collection of tools. How did you eventually aquire everything?


:lol:
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:07 pm

I collected equipment over a 10 year period. first I sold a car to obtain a Taig manual mill, CNC mill, and lathe. That started it all. After that, I began buying tools as I needed them for various projects.

I got tired of using a drill press, hack saw, and hand file to build everything.

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:53 pm

Well, I have everything on hand or on order for this build. Here is the list;

Hymax 50-63 motors
Two Mamba XL2 ESCs (I already had one of these brand new, so I ordered a second one to match. I know they are overkill)
Zippy Lipos (6S 10amphours)
Cindrich 240 front truck
Two Cindrich adjustable plates
DX3 transmitter and receiver
Abec11 76mm wheels
Box aluminum and carbon fiber panels for the deck

This is a $1,500+ build. Kind of spendy. But, I do not believe in doing anything half way. :)

Wait till you see the rear truck. I am excited to get it built to show you guys.

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby kfong » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:03 pm

Looking forward to the build, since I plan to build a longboard for one of my winter projects.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby sk8norcal » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:03 am

recumpence wrote:
Wait till you see the rear truck. I am excited to get it built to show you guys.

Matt


do you have a drawing done up already?

is the angle of the motor mount going to be adjustable ? (since you got that adjustable angle baseplate...)

#2 The reason I want to make stationary hubs that allow the wheels to be pulled off easily without mounting the pulleys to the wheels is for a couple reasons. First, it does not take any more work to do it this way. If I am making this from scratch anyway, I may as well take that last step and make it different and easier to work on. Second, because the pulley can be made to run much straighter this way. Basically, if you cantelever a pulley far off center from the support bearings (the wheel bearings in a wheel mounted pulley scenerio), you increase the potential for belt issues. My setup will have the drive pulley supported on its own bearing directly in line with the belt. So, the wheel bearings will not affect the belt what-so-ever. This may not seem like a big deal, but as I mentioned before, this is no big deal to change the design from a machining standpoint. It is easy to do and makes the system a bit more finished having separate hubs.


sounds like a good idea,
lagrange does it a bit differently using the 'floating' axle..
and i dont like how they permanent bond the wheel hub thingamajig...

also, just to note, the other alternate method is like most Chinese eboards, mounting a bearing in the pulley (but requires an extended axle)

link for adjustable angle plates if others are interested,
http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/f ... -rodz.html
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:50 am

Yes, the plates are angle adjustable, and so is the motor angle. The motor plates will clamp to the axles tube portion of the truck.

My system will use a bearing inside the pulley. However, it will not require extended axles. The axles are 8mm. The axle stubs will be inserted into 3/4 inch OD 4130 chromoly tube. That tube will run through 1 inch OD aluminum tube from one end of the truck to the other. The pulleys will roll on needle bearings around the 3/4 inch chromoly tube.

It probably sounds a bit confusing. It is actually a simple design that is tough to describe.

The only downside of this design is that the axles need to be welded into the chromoly tube. That is because it is far easier to weld it in than to have the tube threaded to the 3/8" thread required. The axles fit snug into the 3/8 bore in the tube. So, I will TIG weld them in place. If I ever need a new axle, I either need to cut the weld, or get new axles and weld them into a new tube. No big deal, really.

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby Silenthunter » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:17 am

Matt,

I had a similar idea and I even reply somewhere on the forum that this is the only way to have a perfect drive with no belt skipping and all items perfectly aligned. Look at the langrange kit, you may get 1 inch aluminium pipe cut it to the length of the hanger and just implement pulley on the sides with the bearings inside. It is much better and easier to fabricate. You can also try a 10mm or 12mm shaft/axle (stainless steel 303) super strong and will last forever.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:53 pm

That is exactly what I was looking at. The reason I am going with the Chromoly tube internally was two fold;

#1 I could not find aluminum tube with thick enough wall for a large OD and a small enough ID to thread for the axles.

#2 The pulley bearings I am using are needle bearings. The needles roll on the surface of the tube they are running around. So, I wanted a steel surface for the bearings to roll on. I would assume aluminum would not be as good an option.

That being said, if I were to produce a system like this for resale, I would make it all aluminum for simplicity sake.

This first system is being built overkill to make sure there are no problems.

I weigh 170 pounds. I need to make sure it can handle me on rough roads. :)

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby sk8norcal » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:43 pm

recumpence wrote:
#2 The pulley bearings I am using are needle bearings. The needles roll on the surface of the tube they are running around. So, I wanted a steel surface for the bearings to roll on. I would assume aluminum would not be as good an option.


i wonder how often u have to lube that...
like this?
http://idc-store.com/needlebearinghtdti ... lleys.aspx
why not ball bearings instead?
http://idc-store.com/ballbearinghtdtimi ... ulley.aspx

anyhow, thx for the explaination...
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:44 pm

The reason for needle bearings is because the wheel adapters I am making consist of one inch ID tubing that runs into the wheel. The pulley will be pressed over that one inch ID tube. The bearing must fit inside the one inch ID tube and around the 3/4 inch OD truck axle extension. The only bearing that will fit is a needle bearing.

kind of hard to explain. Pictures will help.

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:38 pm

I have been machining parts. I am about 1/2 way done with the rear truck.

I will post pictures as it comes together.

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby torqueboards » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Awesome! Can't wait to see the updates pics.
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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby recumpence » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 am

WARNING, SHAMELESS TEASER POST!!! :mrgreen:

I am nearly finished with the rear truck. All I have left are the two motor mount plates and the rear truck is finished.......

I do not know if I will get the plates done today. It is my wife's birthday. So, we are celebrating. But, I did get a chance to squeeze in some TIG welding before she got up this morning. :wink:

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Re: New twin motor longboard project

Postby Vapology » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:57 am

In stead of making her breakfast in bed? For shame, for shame! I could never get away with that :)
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