2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
RomeoEG   10 W

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2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 12:36am

***** THIS TOPIC FORMERLY TITLED "I'M READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though.. ****** Topic re-named to reflect what I have decided to build


Hi folks,

My name is Jesse. Classic story- found boosted boards, then the other pre-fab companies, then this forum and the alien drive/power systems and the other awesome DIY products being offered here.


I am ready to build my board (in other words I have the $$ ready to get er' done). I've been doing some research for a few weeks now, but I'm definitely still a noob. I would love some input from you guys here with your experiences so that I can build the most amazing awesome ultimate wicked E-board of my dreams.

****If anyone educated in the electronics involved in eboards is reading this post thinking, 'Damn, this dude really needs to read "X" resource' please direct me to said resource!! Lol ******

My priorities:

1) the board looking as 'stock' as possible, like a regular longboard. I have asked a few people on this forum about issues with the cops and in general people don't seem to be having issues, but electric boards are definitely illegal here so I want to draw as little attention as possible :D
-I hope to address this concern with
a) ALL black components (board, trucks, motor mounts, motors, ESC, electronics/battery housings.. all BLACK)
b) Motors as small as possible while still meeting my power needs
c) SLIM batteries. I see Bruno at AlienPS has some very nice new slim configuration LiPo's
d) hand remote as SMALL as possible.. those stock R/C controllers look ridiculous

2) Long distance! I want to get 30-40 km+ (18-25 miles) reliably on a single charge using 'conventional' batteries and charger, ideally charging the whole setup at the same time, not charging two packs separately. If this sounds ridiculous to the experienced E-board builders reading this, then what would be the MAX distance one could achieve? and what setup would you use to do so?
-I hope to address this concern with
a) seeking help from some people smarter than me for calculating what kind of motor/esc/battery setup I am going to need
b) The best, highest powered batteries available, as many as I can fit on the bottom of the board while still maintaining a slim battery pack profile (like the battery pack on the Evolve bamboo series) again, those 6s 10000mah slim packs from Bruno look pretty awesome at 26mm thickness
c) Using a 12s charger like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8-1pQ2nRg to charge the MAX # of cells supported by 'conventional' chargers.. (I believe 12s is the max?)
d) Potentially carrying a second set of batteries? kind of a pain but that might be the only way to get those distances? (30-40km+)

3) Hill climbing with a 'heavy' rider I am 6'3" 230 lbs so I'm a big guy, and there are some decent hills on my commute.
-I hope to address this concern with
a) Deciding CORRECTLY between Dual diagonal 50mm vs Dual Diagonal 63mm. The hill climbing with a heavier rider is an absolute must, but in theory the larger the motors, the less 'stock' the board will look. It is important that the board look as 'stock' (non-electric) as possible while meeting my power needs

Some other considerations:

-SMOOTH take-off from complete stop, and SMOOTH progressive braking
->>Hoping to go with a sensored setup from Bruno at AlienPS to get the smoothest ride possible
-Regenerative braking
->>I think all of the Alien ESCs have this now?
-Temperature monitoring/control
->>Not sure how much of a concern this is?
-Kill switch
->>Any ideas?
-Charge ports
->>Any ideas?
-A way to monitor battery levels? Battery management system on the Alien ESCs?


I have my board + Caliber trucks picked out and assembled.. This thing is super stable, feels like driving a tank, with great handling for such a long board due to relatively aggressive concave.

-Rayne 'Supreme' (42.5" long, 10" wide, 30" or 31" wheel base)
-Custom grip tape job using Vicious grip tape mix of black + clear
-10" black Caliber 50 degree trucks
-Currently using 1/2" riser pads, as the board has a slight drop to it. I will adjust what risers I use once I have the motors+mounts on.
-Has random white Arbor wheels on it for now until the Abec11's arrive

Here's pics of the board setup so far.. looks sickkkkkkk :)
https://db.tt/D50VZT3z
https://db.tt/dG6zvxJJ

I have decided I will be dealing with Alien for my caliber mounts (in black), but the electronics/battery setup is where I need some info, as a complete understanding of all the electronics stuff definitely still eludes me. I will be going with Alien electronics (motors/esc/batteries) but I am not sure exactly what to get yet..

Board - CHECK
Trucks - CHECK 10" Calibers
Wheels - ABEC 11 flywheels
-83mm?
Motor Mounts, Gears, Belts - Going with ADS Caliber mounts in all black
Battery/electronics covers - going to custom make them with 1-2mm black ABS with vacuuming forming table once everything else is set
R/C transmitter/remote - will use a clunky stock r/c for testing, and will then move to something custom and smaller

Electronics (motor/ESC/battery) This is where I need help..

So again, main considerations for me in choosing electronics
1) LONG distance (30-40km reliably)
2) heavier rider with hills
3) 'Stock' non-electric appearance, while meeting power requirements

A couple of configurations that come to mind from my research thus far..
- 2x63mm SENSORED (Alien), 150A SENSORED ESC (Alien), 2x6s 10000mah packs (Alien) wired in series? parallel? (I don't understand the difference between the two in this application) to make 12s
- 2x63mm (SENSORED) (Alien), 150A (SENSORED) ESC (Alien), 2x5s, or 10s pack (just like Richards '2x63mm 6kw build")
- 2x50mm SENSORED (Alien), 150A SENSORED ESC (Alien), battery? same as above? 2x6s? (12s) would that work? or would I have to go down to 10s? 8s? 6s? what would be the MAX battery life configuration I could pair up with 2x50mm motors? 2x63mm?

I see people saying that 2x50 mm motors is ridiculous power even up hills, and that they couldn't even imagine 63mm.. but I am a heavy guy and like I said, I will be conquering lots of hills, so do you think I can get away with the 2x50mm for the 'stock appearance factor? or should I go for the 2x63mm because 2x50mm will struggle with hills/braking?

What would be the best dual-diagonal drive setup for long distance commuting? would that setup be okay for a 'heavier' rider doing considerable hill climbing?

-Would THIS 12s charger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8-1pQ2nRg) work with 2x6s 10000mah batteries from AlienPS hooked together to make 12s?? (http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/6s-bat ... iguration/)
-If that charger WOULD work with those batteries linked together 2x6s=12s, then would that work with the 150A dual SENSORED 1s-12s ESC from Alien? and IF SO, would that support both 50mm motors and 63mm motors? or only 63mm motors? and what kind of range would you expect from that setup?

-The benefit I can see to going with smaller on-board battery setup (1x6s 10000mah) and just carrying extra batteries for long trips would be only having to 'carry' as much battery power as necessary for your trip; only one 6s for short casual ride, or you could theoretically get a range of 100+km by just carrying 'spare' batteries for a light-weight 6s board with a quick-release on the bottom battery cover for quick battery change over…. THOUGHTS?




Some other questions about general E-board stuff..
-Can the Alien 150A dual 1s-12s SENSORED ESC be used with sensored motors AND non-sensored motors? or only sensored motors? only 63mm? or 50mm also? Could you experiment with these various motor options using that one ESC?
-Has bruno done any firmware updates to support the sensored motors and sensored ESCs for e-board application? the 50mm and 63mm builds Richard did were using non-sensored motors+ESC I believe..
-The benefit I can see to going with smaller on-board battery setup (1x6s 10000mah) and just carrying extra batteries for long trips would be only having to 'carry' as much battery power as necessary for your trip, and you could theoretically get a range of 100+km by just carrying 'spare' batteries for a light-weight 6s board with a quick-release on the bottom battery cover for quick battery change over…. THOUGHTS?
-Am I 'limited' in motor/battery/ESC selection by the gearing options available with the Alien caliber mount kits? i.e.. 15t/32t. Do I have to go with specific motor/battery/ESC guidelines to match those available gearing options?
-Can sensored motors be run un-sensored in the case of a sensor failure/misalignment or whatever?
-In this decision between 50mm motors and 63mm motors, if I get the 150A dual ESC from AlienPS can I use that ESC with either size motor? what variables are considered in answering that question?



ANY answers and ANY insights to ANY of the things I have mentioned is greatly appreciated, as I want to get this thing together ASAP! Summer is ticking away :)

Thanks!
Last edited by RomeoEG on Jul 16 2014 5:13pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 1:38am

Quick question about the Alien 150A ESC with 2x63mm 3kw motors..

the dual 63mm 3kw motors Richard used in his 6kw build are both 80 Amp motors.. total 160A.. the ESC is 150A.. isn't this an electrical "No-No"?

Or is the 150A dual ESC 2x150A for a total of 300A?

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by onloop » Jun 24 2014 6:59am

Wow... thats an awesome summary of your requirements!

One question. What is the top speed you want to reach?

Note: that going 30kmh on a board feels like 60kmh in a car.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by superpef » Jun 24 2014 8:51am

Nice list, sure you'll make the right decisions..

-I would probably go with a dual 50mm setup as for making the board look as stock as possible. your esc can be lower profile, so can your batteries be.
as for hill-climbing, i'm about 86 kgs with clothes on and managed to speed up every hill i encountered. thing is with my setup being sensorless and also my motors being 270kv i make sure to accelerate before hitting the incline as my motors sound like they are struggling when accelerating up hill.. dual 63 would probably work better as they are lower kv and provide more torque from lower rpms especially with your weight. still wouldn't switch..

-i'm also not sure whether i would switch to a sensored system yet just because my sensorless system just works like a dream. make sure how well brunos sensored stuff performs before you go for it.

-i would not put any relevance in being able to start from a dead stop, giving a push doesn't hurt at all, as a matter of act i wouldn't start from a dead stop if i could, looks goofy imo.

-braking is another story, my alien twin "8s" 120A esc sucks at braking but that doesn't have to be exclusively due to the fact that my system is sensorless as i understand. it still gives me controll over speed and is nice to have. torqueboards has mentioned very nice, smooth and more powerful braking on a HK esc he has. i think bruno could drastically improve braking, i hope he is working on it..

-as for range and also a low-profile look, brunos new 6s 10Ah batteries will be great, if i can convince myself to downgrading from 7s to 6s i will go for them also. if you connect them in series, it will become a 12s 10 Ah battery. connecting them in parallel gives you same voltage, double the capacity so 6s, 20 Ah for double the range. 20Ah will give you stupid range, not 40 km with your weight though. dual 63s will require you to run more than 6s, so that limits your plans on range..

-as for regenerative braking, my esc definitely doesn't have it, not sure about brunos newer esc's.

-most available switches that are rated for high amps like we need for our application are bulky and rated for higher currents than they can actually handle, that's why most of us decide to make a diy kill plug that works like a key, once you plug it in your system is armed, once you pull it your system's off. you need an antispark switch also that you press while plugging in your key to avoid getting sparks that damage your connectors in the long run. you can check out details and wiring on various threads including my build thread down below. you will also find wiring for a charging port. sorry can't address all of your questions right now, gotta run, but i'm sure you'll find everything you need and get all your questions answered.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by Carbon » Jun 24 2014 9:09am

I think that will be a pretty ambitious build, but not impossible.
so I want to draw as little attention as possible
I don't know the cops in your area, but usually they don't care or if they do stop you, they'll usually just give you a warning (in the States at least).
Deciding CORRECTLY between Dual diagonal 50mm vs Dual Diagonal 63mm.
You'll be surprised, but the dual 50mm should be able to pull your weight up hills. Just choose a 50mm with a low kV and it should have enough torque to pull you. I'm pretty sure Boosted uses dual 50mm rear motors. However, there's a tradeoff, with 50mm it'll be less noticeable, less weight, and usually less power consumption compared to 63mm, however your max speed of the 50mm will be lower. As the other guy stated above, 30kmh feels like 60kmh. Most of the time you will be going only 22kmh-26kmh.
hand remote as SMALL as possible
There are two guys on the forum creating receivers for the Wii Nunchuck that you can check out. They cost about $40 not including the Nunchuck. I haven't bought one yet, but they seem to have good reviews.
ideally charging the whole setup at the same time
A cheap 6S charger can charge your 6S 10000mah. I would stick to just 6S as that's all you really need to hit fast speeds. The 10000mah battery should be able to pull you for your long range. I'm using only a 6S 5000mah battery and I can go 12 miles (granted I only weigh 140lbs)
wired in series? parallel? (I don't understand the difference between the two in this application) to make 12s
That would be wired in series. In series the voltages add (so 6S+6S) while in parallel the capacity increases (so 10000mah + 10000mah).
Can the Alien 150A dual 1s-12s SENSORED ESC be used with sensored motors AND non-sensored motors?
I'm pretty sure it can but I remember read somewhere that if you are going to be using a non-sensored motor, just buy the non-sensored ESC. If I recall correctly, sometimes they don't pair up well (like it'll work but the ESC may die after a couple months).
and you could theoretically get a range of 100+km by just carrying 'spare' batteries
Do you really need 100+km? There are a lot of vibrations in the board so it'll probably tire out your legs by the end of your trip. Besides at a 100km, you might as well use a car and save time.
Do I have to go with specific motor/battery/ESC guidelines to match those available gearing options
If you can make a keyway in the motor, then no.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 9:28am

onloop wrote:Wow... thats an awesome summary of your requirements!

One question. What is the top speed you want to reach?

Note: that going 30kmh on a board feels like 60kmh in a car.
Thanks for the reply!

I am not worried about top speed.. I figure no matter what setup I go with, it will be able to achieve 20-30 km/h, which as you say is more than fast enough for safety. I am much more concerned about low-end torque, cogging, the ability to climb hills with a heavier rider on board, and the braking ability to stop that heavier rider.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 10:02am

Depending on where you are depends if the cops care or not. I ride in San Francisco and most don't bother. Ocassionally, I'll get a bored bicycle cop telling me to get off the sidewalks but those are in only heavily congested areas. Other times I'm passing cops drinking coffee and they don't really care. I've had cops behind me while I'm riding on the street lol but then I'll pick up the board and move to the side (Don't want to temp them).

Checkout our Wireless WiiReceiver it has a nice cruise control option too. Waiting on the PCB boards though - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=59582.

Distance
18-25 miles is quite some distance. You'll most likely be better off with swapping 8000mah 6s packs and carrying spares in your backpack. I average 6 to 8 miles on a 5000mah 6s pack. 8ah should get you 10 to 15 miles. 10ah should get maybe 12 to 18 miles.

Hill Climbing
I'd recommend dual motors 50mm or is ok and/or 63mm if you don't care about the added weight. I'm about 190-200 lbs with my heavy backpack on and I'm able to power up SF hills no problem at all. I had a 230lb friend and the board still pulls him up hills no problem.

Kill Switch
You can use an arming switch which is the most simplest. You can create your own and have a loop. You can also use a 300Amp Circuit Breaker.

Charge Ports
You just make multiple Y connectors and run them through your enclosure to make easy ports for your lipo charger. You can use the opposite ends and melt them for a cap.

Monitor Battery Levels
ESC's naturally have a warning signal that will allow stop the board or try to stop the board to further have you discharge the battery. You should stop when that happens and then swap packs and/or stop using the battery. I usually have velcro on my board and have an LED Voltage meter and check it when I notice it's not running.

Battery
You don't need 12S. 12S is extreme overkill and you would barely stay on the board. You could double up and go 2x6s 10ah for 20ah and get some massive distance. You would only need a 6S charger if you went in parallel.

Quick Removeable Cover
Yeah, that's the best way if you don't want a lot of stuff underneath your board. Simply, swap batteries and make it easy to do.

-Can the Alien 150A dual 1s-12s SENSORED ESC be used with sensored motors AND non-sensored motors? or only sensored motors? only 63mm? or 50mm also? Could you experiment with these various motor options using that one ESC?

Yes, it can use both. 50mm or 63mm doesn't matter the size of the motor. Yes, you can.

-Has bruno done any firmware updates to support the sensored motors and sensored ESCs for e-board application? the 50mm and 63mm builds Richard did were using non-sensored motors+ESC I believe..

I'm sure, they have but not quite sure.

-The benefit I can see to going with smaller on-board battery setup (1x6s 10000mah) and just carrying extra batteries for long trips would be only having to 'carry' as much battery power as necessary for your trip, and you could theoretically get a range of 100+km by just carrying 'spare' batteries for a light-weight 6s board with a quick-release on the bottom battery cover for quick battery change over…. THOUGHTS?

I ride a board with 5000mah 6s and swap when needed. I carry an additional (3) sets of 5ah 6S in my backpack. I tend to like my board lighter and my backpack is easier to carry 10 lbs. Does affect the way you ride though a bit. Either way distance = weight for batteries. It's either on your board or in a backpack.

-Am I 'limited' in motor/battery/ESC selection by the gearing options available with the Alien caliber mount kits? i.e.. 15t/32t. Do I have to go with specific motor/battery/ESC guidelines to match those available gearing options?

The standard gearing should be fine and there's most likely no reason to change it unless you wanted to modify your settings a bit but the difference especially if you use dual motors would be so small it would probably not be worth it.

-Can sensored motors be run un-sensored in the case of a sensor failure/misalignment or whatever?

I believe, so. I'm not sure what would happen while in motion however.

-In this decision between 50mm motors and 63mm motors, if I get the 150A dual ESC from AlienPS can I use that ESC with either size motor? what variables are considered in answering that question?

Yes, any of those motors will work with the ESC.

Kick Start
Either way sensored or unsensored. You should definetly consider to kick push. It's really not that difficult and easier on your motors sensored or unsensored. IMHO Sensored probably wouldn't make a huge difference and wouldn't be worth the cost. Would be nice + bragging rights.

I run a dual 50mm on 6S/8S unsensored and ride up hills in SF and it's a blast. Majority of hills I power up great with not much effort. I started off with 10S and dual 6374 motors. It was complete overkill and used only 30-40% of it's total power. I have sensored wires on my ESC and a sensored kit but never bothered to put it together yet. Maybe someday.

All you need is a gradual kick somewhat like 1 or 2 rotations of your wheel and accelerate and it goes.

If the sensored is cheap -- sure get it. If it's an extra $100-150 maybe not.. but if you have the extra money why not.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 10:44am

-braking is another story, my alien twin "8s" 120A esc sucks at braking but that doesn't have to be exclusively due to the fact that my system is sensorless as i understand. it still gives me controll over speed and is nice to have. torqueboards has mentioned very nice, smooth and more powerful braking on a HK esc he has. i think bruno could drastically improve braking, i hope he is working on it..
Is this the general consensus? The Alien ESCs not so good for braking?
-as for range and also a low-profile look, brunos new 6s 10Ah batteries will be great, if i can convince myself to downgrading from 7s to 6s i will go for them also. if you connect them in series, it will become a 12s 10 Ah battery. connecting them in parallel gives you same voltage, double the capacity so 6s, 20 Ah for double the range. 20Ah will give you stupid range, not 40 km with your weight though. dual 63s will require you to run more than 6s, so that limits your plans on range..
-So if going from 7s to 6s is a 'downgrade' what will the downgrade feel like? 6s is less voltage? so less power to the motors? is 6s enough to power 2x50mm setup?
-Dual 63s requires running more than 6s? how do you figure this out? the 's' requirements for a motor setup and the expected 'performance' from any given setup?
-as for regenerative braking, my esc definitely doesn't have it, not sure about brunos newer esc's.
I thought Richard/Bruno have had the regen braking thing figured out a long time ago? maybe contact bruno for firmware update?
-most available switches that are rated for high amps like we need for our application are bulky and rated for higher currents than they can actually handle, that's why most of us decide to make a diy kill plug that works like a key, once you plug it in your system is armed, once you pull it your system's off. you need an antispark switch also that you press while plugging in your key to avoid getting sparks that damage your connectors in the long run. you can check out details and wiring on various threads including my build thread down below. you will also find wiring for a charging port. sorry can't address all of your questions right now, gotta run, but i'm sure you'll find everything you need and get all your questions answered.
Thank you! I was checking out your build.. lots of great info that I will be looking to replicate. The kill switch, the battery monitor, the option for bluetooth and r/c… brilliant.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by superpef » Jun 24 2014 11:41am

RomeoEG wrote:Is this the general consensus? The Alien ESCs not so good for braking?
I talked to Richard about this, he said braking works better and actually pretty nicely with 63mm motors as opposed to 50mm motors but I don't think it will be close to as good as it could be. I have tried yuneec's e-go (cheap but good bang for the buck chinese complete board) and braking was buttery smooth and brought me to a complete stop pretty quickly. don't think any alien esc will feel that great.
RomeoEG wrote:-So if going from 7s to 6s is a 'downgrade' what will the downgrade feel like? 6s is less voltage? so less power to the motors? is 6s enough to power 2x50mm setup?
It will lower top speed (i can currently go about 41 km/h). a little less won't hurt as i only go this fast on the nicest bike paths and even then not very often. 35 or so is plenty.
RomeoEG wrote:-Dual 63s requires running more than 6s? how do you figure this out? the 's' requirements for a motor setup and the expected 'performance' from any given setup?
63mm motors require higher voltage than 50mm motors. To my knowledge most 63mm motors are rated for 8s-10s. Using higher voltage than what the motors are rated for will burn them up.
RomeoEG wrote:I thought Richard/Bruno have had the regen braking thing figured out a long time ago? maybe contact bruno for firmware update?
Yes I think I can recall reading that they can do regen back then, even mine but it can't, I have tested this. My esc was also rated up to 8s which it can't handle. If you use a fully charged 8s battery with my esc it will be in "safe mode" and won't work properly. I see it's still rated 8s on his website, if he didn't upgrade it to really work with 8s by now it's a shame he didn't change it to 7s in the specs. Misleading.
RomeoEG wrote:I thought Richard/Bruno have had the regen braking thing figured out a long time ago? maybe contact bruno for firmware update?
There is no firmware update for my particular esc, at least there hasn't been until a few weeks ago, i would need to check again. There have been firmware updates for other esc's but i don't think regen was part of them.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 12:19pm

I use an ESC similar to Alien's and the braking for me works fine.

Most people will only need 6S. If you want more of a exhilerating ride then go 8S.

6S pretty much climbs me up most of the steep hills here in SF.

Supposedly, all escs have regen capabilities.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by superpef » Jun 24 2014 12:34pm

torqueboards wrote:I use an ESC similar to Alien's and the braking for me works fine.
Really? Have you tried boosted or yuneec or something? Haven't you mentioned on another thread that you have a hk esc with great breaking?
torqueboards wrote:Supposedly, all escs have regen capabilities.
I went down a 13 km hill coasting and breaking not hitting the throttle once, not 1 mV difference to starting voltage.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 12:51pm

superpef wrote:
torqueboards wrote:I use an ESC similar to Alien's and the braking for me works fine.
Really? Have you tried boosted or yuneec or something? Haven't you mentioned on another thread that you have a hk esc with great breaking?
torqueboards wrote:Supposedly, all escs have regen capabilities.
I went down a 13 km hill coasting and breaking not hitting the throttle once, not 1 mV difference to starting voltage.
Haven't tried boosted or yuneec just yet. I've seen the boosted but didn't ride it. Looks a lot slower than our boards since it's limited. I have an HK 150Amp ESC but haven't used it yet. I've heard the braking is nice though.

There was a post somewhere else that someone used a few escs and it was putting power back in - http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18978.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by superpef » Jun 24 2014 1:02pm

torqueboards wrote:Haven't tried boosted or yuneec just yet. I've seen the boosted but didn't ride it. Looks a lot slower than our boards since it's limited. I have an HK 150Amp ESC but haven't used it yet. I've heard the braking is nice though.
Ah ok must have gotten you wrong there, yeah they are definitely slower than ours, at least yuneec's is, thought boosted should be faster. Anyway yeah being in the SF area it shouldn't be too hard for you to try one out, braking should be exceptionally awesome. Yuneec's was. Very controllable from softer to hard until a dead stop, pretty much like in a car.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 1:24pm

THANKS everyone for the replies so far, very helpful.
torqueboards wrote:Checkout our Wireless WiiReceiver it has a nice cruise control option too. Waiting on the PCB boards though - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=59582.
I will definitely be doing something along those lines. Will probably give your system specifically a try.
Hill Climbing
I'd recommend dual motors 50mm or is ok and/or 63mm if you don't care about the added weight. I'm about 190-200 lbs with my heavy backpack on and I'm able to power up SF hills no problem at all. I had a 230lb friend and the board still pulls him up hills no problem.
This was with 2x50mm or 2x63mm your 230lb friend?
Kill Switch
You can use an arming switch which is the most simplest. You can create your own and have a loop. You can also use a 300Amp Circuit Breaker.

Charge Ports
You just make multiple Y connectors and run them through your enclosure to make easy ports for your lipo charger. You can use the opposite ends and melt them for a cap.
Okay cool thanks. I like what superpef did with his 2x50mm for solutions to kill switch and charge port(s)
Monitor Battery Levels
ESC's naturally have a warning signal that will allow stop the board or try to stop the board to further have you discharge the battery. You should stop when that happens and then swap packs and/or stop using the battery. I usually have velcro on my board and have an LED Voltage meter and check it when I notice it's not running.
So 'in field' monitoring of the balance leads to see voltage of specific cells you think isn't necessary? just a overall voltage display. Again I like what superpef did with that voltage reader setup
Battery
You don't need 12S. 12S is extreme overkill and you would barely stay on the board. You could double up and go 2x6s 10ah for 20ah and get some massive distance. You would only need a 6S charger if you went in parallel.
Would a 6s charger display the voltage of all 12 cells though? balance charging all 12 cells if I were to run them in parallel 2x6s 10mah = 6s 20mah (but actually 12 cells).. or would I need a 12s charger to balance them/display the individual cell voltages

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 1:51pm

This was with 2x50mm or 2x63mm your 230lb friend?

That's with (2) 50mm motors.

So 'in field' monitoring of the balance leads to see voltage of specific cells you think isn't necessary? just a overall voltage display. Again I like what superpef did with that voltage reader setup

Not really needed. I had a setup similar for a while but realized it was unnecessary.

Would a 6s charger display the voltage of all 12 cells though? balance charging all 12 cells if I were to run them in parallel 2x6s 10mah = 6s 20mah (but actually 12 cells).. or would I need a 12s charger to balance them/display the individual cell voltages

Depending on how you wire those 6S cells you can wire them in parallel for 6S and not need a 12S Charger. A 12S charger is much more expensive.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 2:10pm

So far from the feedback, this is where I'm at in terms of electronics:

Motors

-Going to go 2x50mm to start. I figure I can always go to 63mm if absolutely necessary, but by the sounds of it 2x50mm will be enough power, and the trade offs for more 'stock' appearance, less voltage draw/longer range, and the ability to use 6s battery packs instead of 8s or 10s is great, as those 6s 10,000mah slim configuration batteries look just too good to resist
-Going with a SESNORED setup. In theory sensors are better than no sensors when it comes to braking and low-end torque (my major concerns with the 2x50mm setup). Richard and Bruno seem to be moving in the direction of doing more work with the sensored setups, so the firmware is only going to get better with time. The sensored setup is only 5-10% more expensive than the non-sensored setup.

ESC

-Going with the 150A Dual SENSORED ESC from Alien. Going with the larger ESC even though I'm going with the 2x50mm motors, so that I have the option to experiment with 63mm motors in the future without needing to buy a new ESC
-Sensored to match the sensored motors

Batteries

-Going with 2 x 6s 10,000mah slim profile configuration wired in parallel to make 6s 20,000mah. It seems that I can count on at least 10 miles from a 10,000mah pack; 20 miles from a 20,000mah pack. If I can get that distance reliably then I will be stoked. Not super concerned with top speed- if the setup will do 30km/hour top speed I am satisfied.

Wireless remote

-Going with stock R/C huge controller for testing. Hoping Richard will hook me up with one of those nice R/C remotes he crafted.. they are an acceptable size.
-Will be integrating a wii nunchuck system, probably torque board's ASAP
-Will maintain the ability to use R/C or wiichuck for different riding situations.

Kill/arming switch and charge ports

-Going to copy superpef's setup for both of these

Voltage display

-Will also probably copy superpef's setup, but will try to integrate the LCD display thing into the case instead of mounting on the heat sinks of the ESC




My main concerns/considerations at this point

-The sensored setup having proper firmware support, especially since I want to mix the 2x50mm sensored motors with the 150A sensored ESC. Will likely have to message bruno directly about this

-Does the wii chuck setup need to outside of the battery/esc housing in order to establish a stable connection?

-That the 50mm and 6s setup truly will be enough power for a heavier rider. I am 99% convinced, but will also probably ask Bruno directly about this.

-What should I do for headlights on the board? an easy addition down the road?

-What would I have to do to have 'on board' balanced charging for those 2 x 6s 10,000mah packs? or even on-board un-balanced charging? to charge them most of the time on-board, un-balanced, and maybe balance charge them with an external balancing charger once/week.

-My board is long enough, and the battery packs are small enough that I could fit 3 x 6s 10,000mah slim config packs.. in parallel = 6s 30,000mah. Would that still work with my setup? how could/could I even charge that?



AM I MISSING ANYTHING? DO YOU SEE ANY FLAWS WITH MY SETUP? Are there any features that people have integrated that are sweet that I haven't thought of? Anything you would change? etc etc.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 3:41pm

The Wii Nunchuck adapter is better off outside than more inside. Outside there are no issues.

Possibly, dual 63mm wouldn't be bad too if you want more torque and all. 50mm is perfect for my own purpose it can vary depending on what you want. Your board is going to be pretty heavy regardless since you are using 150amp ESC and 20ah. You might as well just go 63mm. Your board will be quite obvious with 20ah... That's a lot of battery. Would probably just go 63mm.

Buy a parallel board for your connectors and charge them in parallel. I recommend the HK 350W Power Supply and an iCharger 802b about $160 total and my best purchase so far. Especially, if you are going to try and charge 20ah. Spend the money on the charger.

Each of those packs is going to weigh about 3 to 5 lbs each pack. I would think.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by onloop » Jun 24 2014 7:09pm

Lets hope you make a super reliable setup because if any component decides to fail when you are on your 100km journey that will be one VERY HEAVY board to carry home!.... :) Each of those 10000mah batteries weight about 1.2kg each...

Honestly I think you are trying to over spec this board a little bit. Why do you need such massive range? are you actually designing this board for a particular event? or is it to get to work? or you just don't like charging your batteries? If you need the range thats fine... just make sure you need it.

ALSO CONSIDER: If you want longer battery life maybe just go one single motor, geared with lots of torque, maybe aim for 15mph. One motor will work fine!

My design theory is to keep-it-simple.... over complicating your eboard will probably result in frustration as if something fails it becomes expensive and annoying to fix... make it strong & simple & make it work every time!

But seriously I suggest you think about what top speed you want to go, it is nearly impossible to make the decisions on all of the other components until you know what speed you want to travel on flat ground.

Actually I just built a complete custom made board for a guy with your weight & height actually I think he is slightly heavier 110kg.
So based on first hand experience I suggest you do this:
> Dual 50mm motors, 245kv OR 270kv, 13t motor pulley - 36t wheel pulley, 83mm wheels. This will give you top speed of 35kmh with 245kv OR 38kmh with 270kv
> Battery: before you decide on battery think about what you will use to mount the battery... nothing worse then not being able to neatly secure your battery in position because you cannot find a suitable case. Batteries will get destroyed if you don't have a good case around them! And then you will have over $300 worth of replacements if something bad happens. Also does your board flex at all? this will be a problem when mounting so many batteries. However If you can make any size case using vacuum form or somthing your battery options are now greater!
> Buy the fastest charger you can afford, maybe 200 or 300watt.... then you can charge faster!... this is always a better option than carrying more batteries.

Here is a picture of the board I built for my customer: http://gdurl.com/vEsX

NOTE: it is pictured with 15t motor pulley but I have now changed that because it was getting too hot climbing hills.

ENJOY THE JOURNEY OF YOUR FIRST BUILD!

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 10:37pm

torqueboards wrote:Possibly, dual 63mm wouldn't be bad too if you want more torque and all. 50mm is perfect for my own purpose it can vary depending on what you want. Your board is going to be pretty heavy regardless since you are using 150amp ESC and 20ah. You might as well just go 63mm. Your board will be quite obvious with 20ah... That's a lot of battery. Would probably just go 63mm.
-The main reason I have decided 2x50mm is to utilize those sickkk 6s 10,000mah batteries from Bruno. I think pretty much all 63mm motors are rated for 8s-12s? He has some 'flat' 10s packs too, but they are 45mm thick compared to 26mm for the 6s, and the 10s are 8000mah vs 6s 10,000 mah
-My plan would be a long, slim (~30 mm thick) rectangular battery/electronics case like the Evolve bamboo series http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0150/5 ... 1398736123 I think that is pretty low-key paired with 50mm motors.. about as low key as you can get anyway. I guess the other option would be one battery pack, and keep the case super slim like that, but keep it only toward one end of the board for a more 'stock' appearance but obviously half the range with only one battery pack. I have figured out a 'best of all worlds' solution that I will discuss in my next post for some feedback.
torqueboards wrote:Buy a parallel board for your connectors and charge them in parallel. I recommend the HK 350W Power Supply and an iCharger 802b about $160 total and my best purchase so far. Especially, if you are going to try and charge 20ah. Spend the money on the charger.
-So a parallel board could charge 2x6s packs simultaneously wired in parallel (6s 20,000mah) using that iCharger 802b and the 350W HK supply? But would it balance charge them? and would it display the voltage of each of the 12 cells individually?
torqueboards wrote:Each of those packs is going to weigh about 3 to 5 lbs each pack. I would think.
I did a breakdown for the weight of my setup, looked up all of the actual weights with a couple of exceptions I had to estimate:

4.18 lbs - Rayne supreme – 4.18 lbs
2.1 lbs – 10” 50 degree Calibers
0.5 lbs – ABS case
0.5 lbs – ABEC 11 flywheels
7.28 lbs – TOTAL

2.5 lbs – Dual Caliber mount setup
3.0 lbs – 6s 10,000mah battery
(3.0 lbs) – second 6s 10,000 mah battery
0.77 lbs – 150A esc
1.67 lbs – 2x50mm motors
1lb – MISC/MISC electronics
8.94 lbs – TOTAL (one battery)
11.94 lbs – TOTAL (two batteries)

16.22 lbs (7.4kg) GRAND TOTAL (one battery)
19.22 lbs (8.7kg) GRAND TOTAL (two batteries)

Going in to this I figured if I could keep it under 20lbs I'd be happy. The Evolve board is 17.5 lbs and 'my' board would have more power and further range. The Boosted is 15lbs, same power but less range.. a lot of the weight difference there is the super light Loaded Vanguard that they use (2.7 lbs vs the Rayne Supreme @ 4.2 lbs).

Do you think I would notice a huge difference between carrying a 16lb board vs. a 19lb board? Hmmmm

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 11:13pm

-So a parallel board could charge 2x6s packs simultaneously wired in parallel (6s 20,000mah) using that iCharger 802b and the 350W HK supply? But would it balance charge them? and would it display the voltage of each of the 12 cells individually?
Yes with a parallel board you can charge up to 6 packs in parallel. At least for the pre-made connectors. You could make your own and charge as many as you want I think.. You can balance charge all of them, yes.

My favorite part of parallel charging is the fact that if all packs are slightly different in voltage. You plug all the balance cables in and wait maybe 20-30 seconds and they'll even themselves out. You'll only want to do this though if they're all somewhat close together. If they're way off .20 -.30v off. I'll charge in pairs or singles and get them all to an equal range and then charge them all at the same time.
Do you think I would notice a huge difference between carrying a 16lb board vs. a 19lb board? Hmmmm
You'll definetly notice the difference between the two. I started off with a 10S and dual 63mm motors and 8000mah pack. It was pretty heavy to carry and would get you tired.

Now, my dual motor 50mm 5000mah pack is about 13.9 lbs which is lighter. I could probably make it lighter by using a lighter board.

If I'm carrying a 20lb board it won't be for commuting - it would be a fun board and I'd have pneumatic wheels on it. I like the lightweight but powerful and spare battery packs in a backpack but that's just my personal preference.

Although, you can go buy a 35 lb dumbbell and start lifting... then 20 lbs won't be anything :)
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 11:16pm

onloop wrote:Lets hope you make a super reliable setup because if any component decides to fail when you are on your 100km journey that will be one VERY HEAVY board to carry home!.... :) Each of those 10000mah batteries weight about 1.2kg each…
Lol :) I think the MAX I would do would be 2x6s packs, so 6lbs or 2.6 kg.
onloop wrote:Honestly I think you are trying to over spec this board a little bit. Why do you need such massive range? are you actually designing this board for a particular event? or is it to get to work? or you just don't like charging your batteries? If you need the range thats fine... just make sure you need it.
I do have a specific ride in mind; my commute to work. There is an epic bike trail, beautifully paved and a ride through semi-forested area.. beautiful. It is 15km (9.3 miles) one way (30km round trip) a mix of hills and relatively flat. 60/40 hills/flat.

I have come up with an idea to do the board with a single 6s 10,000 mah battery in the main battery/esc/electronics case, with a quick release, easy to swap the battery, like many of the board builds on here. I would use this setup for short/casual rides, and I could carry the second battery with me to work and swap it for the ride home, or charge the on-board battery at work for the ride home. BUT, I want to also have an optional detachable second casing that 'connects' or butts right up next to the main case, to house the optional second 6s 10K mAh battery, plugged in parallel to get that 6s 20K mAh for longgggg rides. I love to longboard so I know I will not only use the range for my commute to work, but I will definitely use that 20K mAh range on a beautiful Sunday ride. I definitely see the argument for keeping the weight down as low as possible though, so this is my 'best of all worlds' solution.
onloop wrote:ALSO CONSIDER: If you want longer battery life maybe just go one single motor, geared with lots of torque, maybe aim for 15mph. One motor will work fine!
I think the general consensus is that two motors are better for braking and hill climbing, which are primary concerns of mine being a 'heavier' rider
onloop wrote:But seriously I suggest you think about what top speed you want to go, it is nearly impossible to make the decisions on all of the other components until you know what speed you want to travel on flat ground.
Top speed really doesn't matter to me.. I think any of the setups we have discussed will easily do 20-30km/h top speed on the flats which is ample speed for me.
onloop wrote:> Dual 50mm motors, 245kv OR 270kv, 13t motor pulley - 36t wheel pulley, 83mm wheels. This will give you top speed of 35kmh with 245kv OR 38kmh with 270kv
That's pretty much what I will be going with;
- Dual 50mm motors, 230-270kv (probably 270kv), 12T motor pulley, 40T wheel pulley (12T/40T nice torquey gearing), 83mm wheels. This will give me top speed of probably somewhere around 30-35 km/hr? (would you mind crunching the numbers for me? or better yet, teaching me how you crunched those numbers!)
onloop wrote:> Battery: before you decide on battery think about what you will use to mount the battery... nothing worse then not being able to neatly secure your battery in position because you cannot find a suitable case. Batteries will get destroyed if you don't have a good case around them! And then you will have over $300 worth of replacements if something bad happens. Also does your board flex at all? this will be a problem when mounting so many batteries. However If you can make any size case using vacuum form or somthing your battery options are now greater!
I will be making custom ABS vacuum formed battery cases, similar shape/design/styling to the Evolve Bamboo series, but with the modification of having the additional (optional) 6s expansion second pack casing as well. Ambitious? definitely. Going to be f#$@ing awesome though? definitely :)

Evolve Bamboo series (battery casing like this:) http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0398/3 ... 1398325236

onloop wrote:> Buy the fastest charger you can afford, maybe 200 or 300watt.... then you can charge faster!... this is always a better option than carrying more batteries.
Will probably go with something like what Torqueboards recommended above ("Buy a parallel board for your connectors and charge them in parallel. I recommend the HK 350W Power Supply and an iCharger 802b") if it works for balance charging a '12 cell battery' (2 x 6s in parallel), otherwise I will go with this 12s charger; either setup being powered by a 350w variable power supply. (12s charger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8-1pQ2nRg)

THOUGH, I REALLY wish I could rig up 'on board' balanced charging, though no one seems to be at that point with the DIY projects? I think Boosted and Evolve both have on-board charging.. you just use a small laptop style charger, the rest is on-board the board. Obviously using a BMS and on-board charger?


onloop wrote:Here is a picture of the board I built for my customer: http://gdurl.com/vEsX
Awesome. Love the look of the trucks/motor mounts.

onloop wrote:ENJOY THE JOURNEY OF YOUR FIRST BUILD!
Could not possibly do it without the help of this forum and the people following this thread helping me out, so thanks again.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2014 11:26pm

I think Boosted and Evolve both have on-board charging.. you just use a small laptop style charger, the rest is on-board the board. Obviously using a BMS and on-board charger?
Boosted/Evolve -- definitely not as fast as our boards. They're definitely are nice and appealing but they are limited because of the BMS aspect. From what I've found out we can run much higher current by not having a BMS board. Most BMS boards can't supply over 30-50Amps without being huge. To make up for the lack of amps Boosted uses 40V and Evolve uses 36V versus our 22.2V (6S) and 29.2 (8S). However, we are able to pull 60-80 Amps.

It can still be done but it's a lot more customization. I'd definetly like people to try. I just haven't yet. This is also my speculation. I haven't tested it.

I should wire up my watt/amp meter and find out really what kind of power we're actually using. I actually think we are using way less amps/power than we truly need. Hitting 2000watts probably not as well as 80 amps.. Average is probably 20-40amps? I guess, I should just install an amp meter instead.
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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 11:54pm

Good info. I guess for now, for this board at least, I'll go the external charger route. Defffffffinitely going to try doing my girlfriend's board with a 'smaller' less powerful setup, and hopefully utilize onboard charging.



I think for now I am going to order the two 6s 10,000 mah battery packs and experiment with their range and from there decide whether I will go a) 6s setup and carry the extra battery for a swap, b) 2x6s parallel super board and sacrifice weight for range permanently, or c) the 6s setup with the additional 6s expansion case discussed above.

With only a few remaining "Alien specific" questions for Bruno, I think I am ready to place an order and get this show on the road.



THANK YOU, again, everyone for your input. I am definitely still welcoming input/feedback the more the better.

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 24 2014 11:56pm

Someone mentioned to me in private message about "current suppressing capacitors"

apparently you can blow your ESC from voltage spikes when you go full throttle? Anyone else utilizing these? are they 'standard practice'?

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Re: READY!! to build my e-board.. a few questions though

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 25 2014 12:18am

torqueboards wrote:
-So a parallel board could charge 2x6s packs simultaneously wired in parallel (6s 20,000mah) using that iCharger 802b and the 350W HK supply? But would it balance charge them? and would it display the voltage of each of the 12 cells individually?
Yes with a parallel board you can charge up to 6 packs in parallel. At least for the pre-made connectors. You could make your own and charge as many as you want I think.. You can balance charge all of them, yes.

My favorite part of parallel charging is the fact that if all packs are slightly different in voltage. You plug all the balance cables in and wait maybe 20-30 seconds and they'll even themselves out. You'll only want to do this though if they're all somewhat close together. If they're way off .20 -.30v off. I'll charge in pairs or singles and get them all to an equal range and then charge them all at the same time.
On the iCharger though, if it's only an 8s charger, I thought that on the display screen it only shows the voltages for up to 8 cells.. if you have a 6s battery plugged into it, it will show the voltages for those 6 cells, and then show 'unavail' for cells 7 and 8… But this isn't the case?

So when you plug in 2x 6s packs, (for the sake of example lets say those packs are wired in parallel, inside a battery case on a board, and you're plugging in balance lead extensions from the balance lead ports on the battery case on the bottom of the board to the balance ports on the parallel charging board) on the iCharger it will now show individual voltages for 12 individual cells?

Sorry, I definitely feel like I'm beating this one to death but I want to be sure because it sounds too good to be true :D

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