2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by torqueboards » Jun 25 2014 12:23am

If you charge in parallel. It will only show 6 cells and not 12 cells. It will increase the capacity so for a 2x 6S 10ah pack. You'll be charging a 6S 20ah pack not a 12S. So you wouldn't need to see 12 cells.
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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 25 2014 12:27am

But even though I'm charging in parallel versus series, it is still 12 separate cells with 12 separate voltages yes? So the parallel charging board will balance charge all 12 cells, but it 'sees' the battery as a 6s battery? so then the only way to see the voltages of the 12 individual cells would be to plug in the two packs separately? to either the charger or a volt voltmeter type thing that shows the individual cell voltages (not sure of the name for this?)

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by torqueboards » Jun 25 2014 12:35am

RomeoEG wrote:But even though I'm charging in parallel versus series, it is still 12 separate cells with 12 separate voltages yes? So the parallel charging board will balance charge all 12 cells, but it 'sees' the battery as a 6s battery? so then the only way to see the voltages of the 12 individual cells would be to plug in the two packs separately? to either the charger or a volt voltmeter type thing that shows the individual cell voltages (not sure of the name for this?)
Yes, but since it's plugged in as parallel it will only see it as a complete 6S pack. The voltages will be the same for each you don't need to see 12 cells. You could plug in an LED voltage meter to check the individual cells afterwards but they'll be the exact same as the other pack that was charged in parallel with it.
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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 25 2014 12:49am

In the example I gave with the packs in the battery case connected in series, obviously (in theory) all 12 cells would have drained at roughly the same rate, so plugging them into a parallel charge board would be fine because the voltages are very close.

What if I plug two 6s packs into the parallel board where the voltages are significantly different 0.3-0.5 volts.. problem? no problem?

(lol last question I swear.. I am a parallel charge board master after this)

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by torqueboards » Jun 25 2014 1:07am

RomeoEG wrote:In the example I gave with the packs in the battery case connected in series, obviously (in theory) all 12 cells would have drained at roughly the same rate, so plugging them into a parallel charge board would be fine because the voltages are very close.

What if I plug two 6s packs into the parallel board where the voltages are significantly different 0.3-0.5 volts.. problem? no problem?

(lol last question I swear.. I am a parallel charge board master after this)
Personally, I get lazy and I'll balance charge them and wait about 30 seconds. They'll equal out and I'll parallel balance charge them. That's why I also recommend spending the extra money and getting the better charger. Takes about 1-2 minutes to bump that .3-.5 difference so they're equal if you really wanted too.

However, I'm also using the 5000mah 3S 20C packs that are $22 so in reality.. I'm not crying if the pack gets screwed up their easily replaceable. However, if it's a $80-120 pack or even $200-300 pack. I'd baby it. But that's personally why I choose the 5000mah 3s 20C. I can dog these packs out and definitely doesn't hurt my pockets.

I first started with 5S 5000mah and 8000mah packs in pairs for 10S. The packs are about $80-100/each and being the noob I was.. I screwed all those packs up and probably wasted like $300 in batteries.
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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by Daggers » Jun 25 2014 1:03pm

Batteries

-Going with 2 x 6s 10,000mah slim profile configuration wired in parallel to make 6s 20,000mah
Where do you find one of these?

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'SUPER RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by torqueboards » Jun 25 2014 1:37pm

Daggers wrote:
Batteries

-Going with 2 x 6s 10,000mah slim profile configuration wired in parallel to make 6s 20,000mah
Where do you find one of these?
Those are the new packs that Alien Power Systems is selling...
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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'LONG RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 26 2014 1:42am

Been seriously reconsidering the battery situation..

Bruno's 6s 10k flats would be the best available from what I can tell, no doubt.. BUT, as you pointed out, they are hellllllllla expensive. Worth every penny, NO doubt.. but I can just picture it now.. one of those packs getting a swollen cell, or dead cell, or even completely mucked. Would be heart breaking @ $235 each lol :)

On Hobbyking right now looking at 6s 8000mah for $88. considering doing a Boosted style setup with two of those at one end of the board, custom stylish ABS vacuum casing, wires running under the grip tape on top of the board, boosted style, to the ESC and MISC electronics at the other end.

$190 for 6s 16,000 mah - 2x1220g (2x2.69 lbs = 5.4lbs) - 165x69x52mm (6.5x2.7x2 inches) (for each pack) - 30C Constant / 40C Burst
$470 for 6s 20,000 mah - 2x1380g (2x3.05 lbs = 6.1lbs) - 170x138x26mm (6.7x5.4x1 inches) (for each pack) - 35C Max

Everything else is the same. So the difference being 4,000 mah (5-8 miles range), double the height, and a slight difference in weight.

The range of 16,000 mah is huge regardless, 20,000 is just extra huge, and I could get an entire second set of batteries for still significantly less than the initial packs from Alien.

Damn, the paradox of having choices… Tough call. Is the extra-slim worth it… Can I even achieve a 'stealth' look without it? Definitely a primary concern. 2 inches + ABS covers is fatttt. Hmmmmmmmm….



THOUGHTS?
Last edited by RomeoEG on Jun 26 2014 3:43am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'LONG RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 26 2014 2:22am

On second thought, (50th thought? :)) a boosted style battery/electronics case setup probably wouldn't work aesthetically with my board as the trucks don't mount right at the end of the board like the Loaded Vanguard, and the Alien mounts stick out quite a bit further than the boosted drive train setup.

Lol :roll: , I guess I'll get the motors mounted and see how everything looks and go from there.

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'LONG RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 26 2014 3:12am

What would be the real-world e-board difference between a 5000mah 130C vs 5000mah 20-50C vs 8000mah 30-40C? What is the effect of different 'C' values? (assuming all the same 's', 6s)

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'LONG RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by RomeoEG » Jun 26 2014 3:41am

Damnnnnnnnnn…..

"Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 25C Long Lipo Pack (USA Warehouse)"

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__ ... ouse_.html

$65 - 6s 5000 mAh - 820g (1.8 lbs) - 299x55x26mm (11.8x2.16x1 inches) - 25C constant / 35C burst

Soo 3 of those in parallel..

$195 - 6s 15,000 mah - 2460g (5.4 lbs) - 299x165x26mm (11.8x6.5x1 inches) - 25C constant /35C burst


So that would make for a pretty nice long, slim, stealthy battery pack, with still pretty killer range, for a fraction of the cost, and much more easily replaceable..


The possibilities.. I can see why people end up with multiple builds.


Side note: when calculating battery discharge doing 'C' rating * Ah = discharge rate, when you put packs in parallel the 'C' rating stays the same, but the Ah goes up right? so (1) pack: 25C * 5Ah = 125A continuous available discharge…… (2) packs becomes: 25C * 10Ah = 250A continuous available discharge, correct?

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Re: 2x50mm 4KW SENSORED 'LONG RANGE' 6s 20,000mah

Post by torqueboards » Jun 26 2014 9:51am

Capacitor Bank
Supposedly, you want to add in capacitors to store power when there is a ripple in power. They provide a more smoother transition. I didn't notice a difference with them and without them personally. You can search for it on Google it's pretty common in the RC world as well. Similar to this here - http://www.castlecreations.com/products ... -pack.html.

6S Long Lipo 5000mah
I actually like those 6s long lipo packs but haven't used them. I'm definetly liking the 5000mah 6s packs. Can't beat $20 bucks really... so in my setup I just have about 2 or 3 sets in a backpack and swap out when they get low. Plus it's a lot less weight on the board itself but that's just IMO.

Personally, I hate the enclosure being 2". 2" is just way too big IMO. 1" is perfect and what I would go for.. If you can even dig into the board and make it stick out 1/2" would be awesome..

Boosted style is the way it is because of the flex in the deck.. That's the only way they could of done it and/or they used a rubber enclosure that flexes. I doubt your deck has much flex so you wouldn't need to do that.

C Values
The C Values are mah / 1000 x C value. 5000mah 20c = 5 x 20 = 100 amps output. Usually for max amp output it's based on your motor. Some motors are 60 or 80 max amps but usually never higher. You should be fine at 20C if it's 10ah = 200 amps and/or 35c isn't too bad either. Anything more than that I think is pointless. If you actually pulled that much amps 80 amps your run time would be like 5 minutes or something and usually a 5000mah pack at 10-15mph should last at least 45 minutes to an hour.

The C rating always stays the same regardless of a pack being in series and/or parallel. The thing that changes it is the capacity of your total pack which is the mah or ah.

5000 mah 20C = 5ah x 20C = 100 Amps
10000 mah 20C = 10ah x 20C = 200 Amps
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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by RomeoEG » Jul 16 2014 6:28pm

UPDATE

I've done a bunch more research, had a bunch more conversation with Richard and Bruno at Alien Power/Drive Systems, and the setup has changed a bit.

Mounts
I waited for the new Alien Caliber mounts to be available (far superior mounting system by the looks of it) so I have now ordered those for the dual diagonal 50mm, with custom 12T/40T setup that Richard was super nice to do for me, as he no longer offers the 40T for the 2x50mm with 83mm flywheels. The mounts and hubs will be anodized in all BLACK for stealth 8) I also ordered a single Caliber mount for a 63mm setup. My girlfriend is building a board too.. more on that in the future.

Motors/sensored vs. non-sensored/ESC
Went with all Black 2x50mm 2.2kw each (4.4kw) motors from Bruno at Alien. I was originally going to do a sensored setup, but I've decided to 'hold off' on that for know.. kinda. Bruno says that he has had mixed reviews with the sensored setups to date; some people like it, some people feel it still needs work. So that was one reason I decided to go with unsensored motors for now. The other reason was I am set on doing black on black on black to maintain stock, non-electric stealth appearance as much as possible, and the sensored motors only come in silver/gold currently. I opted to go with 50mm vs 63mm to be able to utilize slim configuration batteries (6s or 7s); the thinnest 8s I found was 35-40mm, and 10s same thing. I did however go for the 150A dual SENSORED ESC so that I can experiment with sensored and unsensored motors; 50mm and 63mm; 2s-12s batteries in the future. For those of you who may be wondering, the sensored ESC can be run 'unsensored' with unsensored motors, it just needs to be reprogrammed to do so.

Batteries
I had my mind pretty set on running three of these in parallel for 6s 15,000mah:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ouse_.html
However, to charge them all simultaneously (important) using a parallel charge board will be less than ideal and somewhat messy/complicated. It seems that a single pack is ideal in every way except cost. i.e. the Alien 6s 10,000 mah pack.. beautiful, but pricey. I had decided going in to this that price is not going to be my main consideration, and as long as I come in under/around $2000 roughly (the cost of the evolve/boosted) then I will be happy; my main concern is building the most badass e-board possible for my needs. Which leads me to where I'm at currently with battery consideration…

I've been talking to Bruno about possibilities for the upcoming 7s BMS from Alien, and the discussion is exciting. The 7s BMS will work with any 7s pack. He said he can make me a custom 7s 10,000mah or 7s 16,000mah super slim config. pack to go with the BMS, roughly 30mm thickness. Obviously it will be relatively 'expensive' but this setup will provide a) the distance I need with a single pack b) the ability to charge it at work with a simple laptop style charger c) 7s instead of 6s for that extra power.. important as I am a heavier rider who seriously considered 63mm vs 50mm motors for low-end torque/braking.

The main drawback is the relatively higher cost for the pack; if the pack gets damaged, it is much more expensive to replace it than one of those $65 Turnigy 6s 5000mah packs. This concerns me to an extent for sure, but again, building the most badass board possible is my main objective.

Remote control/Wiiceiver
Going to order one of Richards slick new R/C remotes when they come available in a few weeks or whatever. In the mean time, I have ordered one of Torqueboard's Wiiceiver setups!! super stoked about that, and will probably use it as my primary controller because of how portable/small it is.. along with what i think will be great firmware from the sounds of it.



Looking for input on..
Going to place an order from Hobbyking (and I guess probably a couple of other places too) to get some of the following..
-Balance port extensions (might not need these with the BMS)
-Bullet connectors
-Heat shrink
-XT60/XT90 plugs
-Antispark momentary push switch (for kill switch key)
-Wire (8awg, 10awg and 12awg)
-Charge lead extensions (might not need these with the BMS)
-Charge port connectors
-Voltmeter
-Headlight setup Suggestions? I like the ones on Richard's urban mover build, but he says they suck/break easily.
-Temperature monitor Is anyone using one? necessary? suggestions?
-Capacitors - Saming's post about 'controlling the ripple' and the application of capacitors has me thinking that I should probably incorporate some. My ESC is 2-12s and I'll be running 7s so probably won't be an issue with voltage spikes, but still, it's an expensive ESC; if I can protect it for $5-30 I will definitely do that. I will probably contact him directly for some help picking some out

Anything else I should order from HobbyKing? Anything I'm missing? Anything you guys forgot to order and then went "F%$#" and had to place another order from Asia?

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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by torqueboards » Jul 16 2014 10:54pm

Sensored/Unsensored
Great info on the sensored vs unsensored. I've yet to try a sensored setup. I do have the components but never found the need to swap over yet. The unsensored works fine for me. I've heard there wasn't too big of a difference. One of these days I'll actually hook up my sensored motors lol.

Batteries
It's going to be pretty heavy to have 10ah or even 16ah on your eboard. Your looking at easily 20 to 25 lbs. 18lbs if your lucky..

I find it much easier to carry 5000ah on a board and 10ah/15ah in (3) 5ah packs in a backpack. (3) 5ah packs are heavy (2) 5ah you could barely feel it.

It's nice and all to be able to run the board without swapping packs but you'll feel it if you actually use it to commute. I guess, if your just riding for fun it should be fine.

The BMS is definetly a nice feature. I still need to order one.

Connectors
I'm currently using 4mm HXT, EC5, 5.5mm bullet connectors. They seem a bit of overkill though. They take a lot of room add weight. I think Evolve was using deans. It seems EC3 should be fine but haven't tested them yet. Will put an amp logger on my board soon to find out how much it's actually pulling. 12AWG should be fine. I'm using 10awg now and 8awg is too thick and not needed.

Headlight's seems easier to simply use a regular flashlight.
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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by RomeoEG » Jul 16 2014 11:51pm

Batteries

You are right about the weight thing and being able to swap batteries. It really depends how difficult it will be to plug/unplug the BMS. If it's as simple as unplugging a little plug and swapping the packs then I'd probably buy two 'smaller' packs (probably 2x10ah or 10ah + 6.3ah) and swap them for longer rides. If it is a pain/hardwired then I'll go for the one large pack 16,000mah. By the looks of the 6s BMS on APS site, they use a little plug. I assume the 7s BMS is similar (I don't have it yet)

If 10ah is enough for my commute to work (14.5km 60/40 hills/flats) then I'll probably stick with that and charge it at work; and have the optional second 10ah or 6.3ah for long leisure rides. Some experimenting will be needed.

SO stoked to get it all together lol.

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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by torqueboards » Jul 17 2014 12:02am

If your only trying to reach 9 miles. You might be able to reach that with only 7ah/8ah pack. Would definitely lighten the load.
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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by RomeoEG » Jul 17 2014 12:08am

torqueboards wrote:If your only trying to reach 9 miles. You might be able to reach that with only 7ah/8ah pack. Would definitely lighten the load.
I am glad you think that… It gives me hope that 10ah will definitely be able to get that range :D I would be quite satisfied with the overall dimensions/weight of just the single 10ah

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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by RomeoEG » Jul 17 2014 12:31am

I wouldn't mind having a USB port for charging camera/phone/wii remote… Any known good solutions?

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Re: 2x50mm 4.4KW ALIEN 'LONG RANGE' 7s 16,000mah BMS

Post by torqueboards » Jul 17 2014 12:57am

RomeoEG wrote:
torqueboards wrote:If your only trying to reach 9 miles. You might be able to reach that with only 7ah/8ah pack. Would definitely lighten the load.
I am glad you think that… It gives me hope that 10ah will definitely be able to get that range :D I would be quite satisfied with the overall dimensions/weight of just the single 10ah
Yeah, I average about 6-8 miles per 5000mah pack. I think 10ah will get at least 10-12 miles on the low end to about 16-18 miles.
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