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Re: 4KW inline skates (updated Apr 13th 2016)

Posted: Apr 30 2016 1:19am
by Hummina Shadeeba
Postpone paying bills until they go away or garnish your wages or cut off ur electricity. You need to charge.

Re: 4KW inline skates (updated Apr 13th 2016)

Posted: Apr 30 2016 2:51am
by Vanarian
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:Postpone paying bills until they go away or garnish your wages or cut off ur electricity. You need to charge.
Haha no I don't postpone I pay monthly but they don't adjust each month according to how much electricity I use. Else I'd have not had this bad surprise. When you know how much you have used, you know how much you must pay but paying the whole difference over the year in ONE month is just too much! I'm still a student, damn.

EDIT : Still a picture, I can't just come here and complain about my provider :lol:

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What do you think? Hub is getting decent, isn't it? Apart from the fact everything is still printed I mean. I'll get some alu 7075 versions.

Re: 4KW inline skates (updated Apr 30th 2016)

Posted: May 01 2016 9:25am
by Vanarian
Ok after print I tweaked everything again! Slimmer, lighter, faster, harder and stronger! Frames should not need redesign anymore as flat setups, unless it is to change wheel sizes. Souls got some evo too. I want them stable and fast!

I also got some fun with Composer today :D

Here are the previews guys :

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Re: 4KW inline skates (updated May 1st 2016)

Posted: May 17 2016 9:47am
by Vanarian
Quick update : I've been under negociations for CNC version of my frames for 2 weeks now. Well guess what, after talking with a factory today I learnt that I can also order CNC version of my soulplates from materials like teflon! I'll pay them a visit to choose a proper material.

So I'll be checking that. It will be the closest result to a cast injected one. Bad news is : my frames seem to be very complex work, I was told not less than 2 days of working time. There is also a month queue before I can get delivered. Hope the price won't be too steep. But the guy was very nice.

And here I was thinking that I'd get everything for next friday :roll:

Re: 4KW inline skates (updated May 1st 2016)

Posted: May 17 2016 11:01pm
by Ryuudan
Great job finding a manufacturer. Hope this turns out great.

Thundrblade is now sourcing suppliers for the components. Really hard to find 8s or 10s motors that fit my project. and VESCs are way too expensive, but they are the best ESC out there.

I might have a new prototype in a month or so depending on how long the parts take to get delivered.
I want to start selling the prototypes this year. before summer ends.

it's a race against time now!
http://giphy.com/gifs/skate-electric-in ... ahjaFyLbyg

Re: 4KW inline skates (updated May 1st 2016)

Posted: May 18 2016 3:44am
by Vanarian
Ryuudan wrote: it's a race against time now!
http://giphy.com/gifs/skate-electric-in ... ahjaFyLbyg
Thank you! I'll keep searching though in case somebody else can make it for me sooner. I've worked hard to overcome the issue with my "energy supplier" so still on the train :wink: Good luck for the time attack haha

You've progressed so much on your skates that's impressive. Cool is not enough to describe it!

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 02 2016 6:44am
by bbq870
if you need help, I can ask friends who own a a plastic-injection company.
actually they are in LED business but have a big CNC workshop and plastic injection.
(and won´t copy your design)

edit:
they also do injection moulds inhouse

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 02 2016 9:53am
by Vanarian
bbq870 wrote:if you need help, I can ask friends who own a a plastic-injection company.
actually they are in LED business but have a big CNC workshop and plastic injection.
(and won´t copy your design)

edit:
they also do injection moulds inhouse
Dude that'd be HUGE, Thank you! :D Please yes let's talk in PM over this!

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 02 2016 10:41am
by chinyp
Yup, I'll be interested too bbq, but cost is still a problem to me, van and ryuudan tho :roll: BUT, HUGE THANKS, we'll be sure to look for you!

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 04 2016 6:20am
by Ryuudan
HUGE turnaround in my project.
I'm going now with hub motors!
BUT they will be developed by a partner. can't say much more about it since its in a NDA.

I can show you though my new design on the frame using aluminum.

In the image you can see the aluminum frame and the battery/electronics case.
been thinking for a while to open my own thread instead of lurking in Vanarians, but oh well, maybe some other day. And I believe the exchange of ideas here might be more beneficial to us than having 2 different posts.

if you guys have ANY ideas or questions about the frame please feel free to help me :D

I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Thundrblade is getting closer to market.

now, on to the remote controllers. I've been having a major setback in these remote controllers. it seems no one in the world makes a controller that connects to 2 receivers simultaneously and my attempts to get a DIY or professional solution are getting frustrated.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 04 2016 4:42pm
by Vanarian
Congrats on upgrading to hub motors! :wink: How much space did it spare for your electronics? Do you plan on making everything air tight or you plan on cooling?
Can you just tell about the motors rating?

I can't help with your remote I'm sorry, but I can give you tips for your frame. You want longer cross arms to stiffen shape because you have a week spot in the middle, if you take a hard corner specially with big wheels it will bend against the box. What is maximum speed you want?

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 04 2016 9:55pm
by Ryuudan
Thanks for the feedback.

The 3D sketch is lacking the bridges to strengthen the torsion, when I put these the resistance increases a lot. they will be either welded in place or cast depending on the manufacturer and funds available. Also, putting more material sideways would only increase material strength if thickness would increase. putting more material just adds more weight if it doesnt change side geometry. The bend in the frame is also there to increase lateral torsion resistance.

Anyway I'm gonna simulate it in cad software before building it. Also I do believe in real world data, so I will put those skates in some madmen feet to see how it breaks and improve from failure.

About the motor, sorry can't say too much.
only thing is motor specs should be roughly the same I was getting with my friction drive, but slightly better. Also it will have the capability of full torque from standstill.
I agreed on having my skates be open source, but the motor is IP of the motor company, so that's a bummer.
Actually this motor could be a good one for you too Vanarian. Although your skates focus is completely different from mine you could use the same motors.

btw what are you using for batteries? I'm struggling to find a supplier and to choose a form factor for the cells.
Cyllindricals are more energy dense for weight, and prismatic are more energy dense by volume.
Also 10-15C cyllindrical batteries are rare. Most have a 1.5C to at most 5C rating.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 05 2016 4:07pm
by Vanarian
Ok that's right you have space for bridges, keep me updated on how it progresses.

Thank you for the offer, we can discuss the motor details in PM if you want and I'll keep it under silence so you're not bothered . Looks narrow but big, I'm really wondering how it performs.

I really want to post my own updates badly (I've never been this close to my proto before) but I want to show IRL stuff before showing any new renderings so I still prepare for this. And I aim for half protected, half open source. Open source enough for DIYers to freely use and improve and share , protected enough for me to be ready to defend against Chinese copy cats.

For my batteries I've settled for 18680 and 26650 formats, you are in Japan right? You should use this chance to get Sony VTC5 cells for example.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 05 2016 10:07pm
by Ryuudan
I heard Sony VTC line is discontinued and it was only available to OEMs in the first place making it impossible to prototype with them. Most VTC5 on the market are not legit, although they may be manufactured in the same place, they probably just kept making them despite sony not wanting them anymore.
So, starting a line of products based on a discontinued battery is not good practice. I need good suppliers.

Also Japan is a terrible place to prototype without funding. Everything here revolves around big corporations. Everywhere they don't even bother having a website since they serve big companies, so its almost impossible find anything here, and even when they have a website, they use pictures instead of text making it unsearchable by google. Startups in Japan are kind like a subculture for the young people that don't conform with the rules, kind like a punk thing. The way to go in Japan is to graduate from college and get a job in Sony, or Toshiba, or Panasonic and if you don't get a job for the rest of your life you are a loser.

Just an example: I searched CNC cut aluminum here and found half the price to make it done in the UK and shipped to me than have it made here in the city close to me. I mean it was half the price including the shipping.
btw, know any waterjet cnc cut services? need to cut the frame for the prototype.

So yeah, I can't just go to a panasonic store and order the batteries, because that store doesnt exist and batteries are available only for OEMs. So I'm stuck buying the same stuff from china that you guys buy.

you sure your 26650 can handle the amperage? what is their C rating?

About the motor, dimensions are not locked yet, but it should fit inside a wheel completely. with an outside diameter of 65mm. the render is not with the correct dimensions either. If you also buy the motor we could get a bigger order and save some cash with more units. same for batteries, and ESCs. even if we have different products that will sell in different places. I believe it to be beneficial to me if more people are using this motor, also improves the market as a whole and pushes new technology forward instead of relying in these RC-grade motors. The problem is that the development may take up to a year in the worst case scenario. the best case scenario it might be done before winter.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 06 2016 1:52pm
by Vanarian
Oh I didn't know it was this hard to work a start up in Japan, wish you even more luck and courage.

For the batteries, oddly in Europe and from Fasttech you can get them legit. But I was proposing this one because I assumed you wouldn't have to pay the regular price the rest of the world faces just because of shipping.

About the motors, won't this delay your build? Anyway if the supplier is reliable that's good thing.

In this case you should look toward LG cells. Depends on your peak amperage but use at least a 2P setup, more if possible. I'd recommend HG2 and HB6 for their quality, though they're opposites. The first is 3Ah/cell and 20A continuous, second is 1.5Ah/cell and 30A continuous.

For 26650 I was thinking of the trusted a123 M1 cells, 70A continuous and 120A bursts. Though only 2.3Ah/cell for first gen and 2.5Ah/cell for last gen, it is awesome and the most durable of all you will find. There is still an unknown 26650 lithium hydrogen cell that Lygte has ordered and has yet to test to confirm discharge and Ah.

That's the best I can advise to you for cells, pouches take lot of places.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 07 2016 7:15am
by Ryuudan
Well, pouches can take any form and shape and that makes them the most versatile.
Cylindrical have a little higher energy density per weight, but not higher than density per volume.

the number to beat is the 175Wh/kg of high end LiPos. just to remind Lithium polymer are li-ion usually with a 3.7V per cell, so it means any chemistry made from lithium and in 3.7V. So the best energy density are LiCo, but manufacturers dont like to state their chemistry.
LiFePo get around 90-100Wh/kg whith it's lower voltage per cell.

talk about Ah per cell makes no sense at all, cells have different sizes and weights and voltages. Even talking Wh per cell makes little sense, after all, you are still talking about different sized cells.

btw I've checked A123 LiFePo cells and they are way too weak for me. I would need much more space and the skate would be heavier.

I'm going for the lightest possible and that are definitely drones batteries.
Anyway, I'm contacting some vendors in Aliexpress to see if they can make me a custom battery. if I can buy one, I will review it here.

ps: I've talked to another engineer and he said to me that the good thing about cilindrical cells is that they are already in compression which means pouches should be compressed as well for safety and performance issues. Although I never seen any LiPo compressed.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 07 2016 7:50am
by Vanarian
Maybe I've not been accurate enough with my reply.

18650 cells are a pretty good format to work with if you want a compact and custom battery pack with decent chemistry and limited weight. Because this is the most used format in industry, notably EVs. Pouches are rarely custom shape, usually manufacturers use a standard format and solder / assemble it in the pouch they sell to you. That's why you have kinda limited choices depending on what you seek.

Ah per weight is irrelevant, as is confusing 26650 and 18650. The final result is relevant, because no matter the Ah/weight or any density you calculate, formats available in battery are limited.

First select your peak amperage. Build your battery in order to get this peak within your continuous ratings.
Second select your range goal. By then you will have selected a first batch of batteries. Cut down this batch by determining exact space you have available to store it.
Finally, choose how long you want your batteries to last in cycles.

That's how you search and build a battery layout.

LiPo are strong and short lived, not so big but thick layout usually required for decent range. But they are powerful for size.
Li-Ion usually last longer when properly built.
LifePo4 are legendary and ultra strong . Previous chemistries are a joke if you want very durable batteries. But you trade this long life by lower voltage and lower Ah compared to others at same size / number of cells. So you compensate by adding one of two cells per Serie. You get your voltage back with better curves than Li-Ion or Lipo but add few grams.

I've been assuming you have around 50 (width) x 140 x 80 mm of space for your electronics and batteries. That's 6S3P minimum worth of LG HG2, as 25V9Ah per skate. 225Wh/skate and 774gr of battery. And that's also 1500W continuous ability. That's huge.

Just my 2 cents but I've been browsing and comparing and negotiating batteries for too many months to count. Ah, the formats I've listed are very affordable, excepted a123. That's why I've settled for these battery formats.


If you want the quality product I think you are building, you may want to consider these options.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 08 2016 11:55pm
by Ryuudan
Theres somethings I have to disagree here.

pouches are way more flexible in size than cylindrical cells. They can be made in any size. Manufacturers offer them in the sizes market demands and that's why you see usually a more common shape. So if you want to put as much juice as possible in a small space, pouches are the way to go.

But I agree that if you are talking about having cells available in the market cylindrical cells are the way to go. They are even easy to assemble in-house. You just need a cheap spot welder. Making it a more flexible option in practical terms.

I have at the most 110mm X 50 X 50. which can fit 4x18650. I would need to get it wider and longer to be able to fit a little more battery inside. While pouches can be custom made to have the exact dimensions I want. Then I have to find a factory willing to build custom pouches for me. btw, notebook batteries are usually cylindrical, but macbook batteries are pouches. I'm guessing all those ultra thin laptops are pouches.

If I changed the size and went for 55mmX55mm I would be able to fit 9 batteries. The motor will use around 30A in full power. So this would give me a 8S 3Ah 88.8Wh capable of 30A and around 350g

but 30A cells might not be enough, it would be better to get a 2P config with 20A cells. to make that happen I would have to make my frame longer by 20mm than I would be able to fit snugly 16 batteries for a 8S2P.

The other way to go is rearrange and redesign the frame to make the cells fit vertically. making the height available to 70mm I could fit 6 cells in line and making the frame wider to 55mm I could fit 3 lines making it the 16 batteries I needed.

This way we have around 178Wh per foot with the too heavy 700g per battery pack.

Are there any smaller and lighter cells available?

And so, the quest for the perfect battery goes on :lol:
Actually it took me a long time to answer this and while doing it I had some ideas. I will consult with the motor engineer to see if 30A cells can handle it or If I need a 2P config.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Jul 09 2016 6:34am
by Vanarian
Ok I understand better :) BTW that's pretty good level for your motor, you should get enough torque if diameter is good too.

As for the batteries, you have way less space e than I thought. But I haven't understood everything? At least you will need if space allows more parallel or bigger discharge rate. Margin is important!

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Aug 10 2016 10:02am
by Vanarian
So I've been cleaning my home yesterday and decided to tidy a corner of my linving room. Want to share :lol:

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Bit of look back on some of my old parts

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Also I got FINALLY (thanks to Rogier!) what I call RE-VESCs. Yep, that's like VESC next-gen but more custom! More to come once I finish putting everything together. And that's HUGE ASS caps.

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Now I'm done with parts updating, frames have been nurtured so much I couldn't do better than what it is. You can hardly match better performance, unless very focused. UFS variant has been made too, for adventurous DIYers or just classis skaters (grindz I got you covered! :wink: ). Let's say that I don't fear big brands anymore :twisted:

Soulplate has, after numerous tries, been carefully sized, minced, sliced.

Whatever for fixation strength I can't really get under 10mm of layer between the frame and the boot because metal plate.

However good part is : for 10mm trade in cg, I actually get a solid rigid soulplate mount to keep up with both the boot and frame, I lowered almost all battery CG under this layer and I still keep every previous advantages I had with my "box". I achieved a good standard to work with, tweakable for 18650 and 26650.

For DIYers, I've promised I'll do a Lipo box, give me time to get all the listed parts above first in finish quality.

I'm still running after my alu and injected parts but I'll give some previews once I go home. Can't let you think I'm off haha

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated June 17th 2016)

Posted: Aug 12 2016 3:34pm
by Vanarian
Promised preview ! Version 6S2P. Frame is my pride, 3x110 speed slalom mode. Ultra rigid and able to rival Seba 310, PS Pleasure Tool, FES Supersonic. This version hits the scale under 2.5kg radar.

The 10S2P preview will follow. It is slightly larger and thicker, but actually no fat brick. Same CG than 6S, maybe a bit lower given weight repartition (that's odd to say).

Shown model has raised heel because I worked for classic 165mm, there is a UFS version too. Though I didn't try to model a slalom shoe to be more accurate, hence weird hybrid look, sorry for that. Anyway!

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Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated August 13th 2016)

Posted: Aug 19 2016 12:13am
by chinyp
bbq870 wrote:if you need help, I can ask friends who own a a plastic-injection company.
actually they are in LED business but have a big CNC workshop and plastic injection.
(and won´t copy your design)

edit:
they also do injection moulds inhouse
bbq, can I look for you and your friend for some affordable services in near future? I wanna get my hub motor and frame made soon before showing it to anyone (CNC for the meantime). I'm not trusting those manufacturers from China....at all....

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated August 13th 2016)

Posted: Aug 19 2016 5:31am
by Vanarian
chinyp wrote:

bbq, can I look for you and your friend for some affordable services in near future? I wanna get my hub motor and frame made soon before showing it to anyone (CNC for the meantime). I'm not trusting those manufacturers from China....at all....
You should try and contact him via PM instead, he's on the move lately so he might not have time to check my thread, however he's always been very attentive to messages.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated August 13th 2016)

Posted: Aug 19 2016 9:33pm
by Hummina Shadeeba
What size stator is it vanarian? Looks tiny.

Re: 3.2KW / 6KW inline skates (updated August 13th 2016)

Posted: Aug 20 2016 1:29am
by Vanarian
The motor is 50mm and stator is 40mm diameter, 20mm wide!

It is very small but can fit straight into 84mm wheels which are very accessible (one step up from 80mm Freestyle wheels and one step down from fitness / endurance wheels) ; it also brings the round profile Seba Street Invaders in the game.

Shown pic has 110mm wheels but for these big sizes I also have a 63mm motor with 53mm stator. Can barely fit into a 90mm wheel, but for 110mm I reckon it will hit the sweet spot.