Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Freshair » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:06 pm

Am also curious as to how you did this. Was thinking about ordering a couple motors and pulling them apart to see if I could make a hubmotor myself since I have the cnc machines at my disposal, but if it can really be as simple as what you have done...
Seems like pressing the wheel around a motor would be a disaster waiting to happen though, without splines/ridges to get a good grip. Am guessing you used some sort of bonding agent?
Have some 107's that are just screaming to have a motor put inside!
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby okp » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:26 am

impressive !
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Outgrown » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:08 pm

How did you put the motor in the wheel?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Stielz » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:21 pm

Outgrown wrote:How did you put the motor in the wheel?


Ok so I machined the centre out of the longboard wheel. Ideally you’d have a CNC milling machine for this because the lathe was just munting the rubber, not really cutting it. Maybe there is a lathe tool that would cut it. But for me the winning method was a CNC milling machine with side mill tool.

Freshair wrote:Am also curious as to how you did this. Was thinking about ordering a couple motors and pulling them apart to see if I could make a hubmotor myself since I have the cnc machines at my disposal, but if it can really be as simple as what you have done...
Seems like pressing the wheel around a motor would be a disaster waiting to happen though, without splines/ridges to get a good grip. Am guessing you used some sort of bonding agent?
Have some 107's that are just screaming to have a motor put inside!


The wheel then slides over the motor. No extreme force, just pressed on by hand and held on with an adhesive. Can’t remember what type I used now, it was about 2 years ago when I did this. No splines or flanges or anything like that. The adhesive has proven to be sufficient, I've done enough hard cornering and accelerating that any problems would have shown by now.

I decided I will go with the VESC. I think this is an awesome skateboard and so it gets the best ESC :D
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Outgrown » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:10 am

Does that have to be achieved with two wheels to avoid problems or is one wheel fine?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Freshair » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:47 am

Stielz wrote:
The wheel then slides over the motor. No extreme force, just pressed on by hand and held on with an adhesive. Can’t remember what type I used now, it was about 2 years ago when I did this. No splines or flanges or anything like that. The adhesive has proven to be sufficient, I've done enough hard cornering and accelerating that any problems would have shown by now.

:D


Well, you have lite a fire under my ass. Am going to go a slightly different approach as far as mounting the motor onto the hanger, however will give the adhesive route a shot and see how that turns out for me.

Cheers
Last edited by Freshair on Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby LEVer » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:54 pm

Stielz, did you also glue the stator, or is it just being held by the axle's nut from coming off the hanger?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Stielz » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:49 pm

Pediglide wrote:Stielz, did you also glue the stator, or is it just being held by the axle's nut from coming off the hanger?


Yup glued on.

Outgrown wrote:Does that have to be achieved with two wheels to avoid problems or is one wheel fine?


Should be fine with one wheel. Plenty of people are going 1 wheel drive.
Don't think the torque steer is bad on longboard style skateboards. It was pretty bad going 1WD on my mountainboard though
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Outgrown » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Stielz wrote:
Pediglide wrote:Stielz, did you also glue the stator, or is it just being held by the axle's nut from coming off the hanger?


Yup glued on.

Outgrown wrote:Does that have to be achieved with two wheels to avoid problems or is one wheel fine?


Should be fine with one wheel. Plenty of people are going 1 wheel drive.
Don't think the torque steer is bad on longboard style skateboards. It was pretty bad going 1WD on my mountainboard though


How do you get the center of the motor to slide into the trucks?

Sorry, I'm not very experienced..
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby rodgah » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:01 pm

Outgrown wrote:How do you get the center of the motor to slide into the trucks?

Sorry, I'm not very experienced..


Take this picture of a outrunner.....
Image

You are replacing the shaft (top right) with the axle of the truck. However the truck doesn't need to spin like the original shaft does so it will become part of the stator and so doesn't need to be isolated with bearings. Without bearings the inside of the stator is probably large enough to nearly slide over most trucks, but maybe a little grinding or lathe work might be needed and then bond it to the truck. You then also have to install a bearing in the end plate (which you can see the original shaft is still inside of in the pic), this will probably require you to bore the hole out a bit and find a bearing to go from this endplate to run on the trucks shaft.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Stielz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:28 pm

Another edit using the file I have on file.

Some high speed runs and night time riding :D

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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:05 pm

hows it do on hills with the 145kv...maybe it doesn't matter since you have so much meat jammed in two cans. :evil:

I still don't know many things about how you did this but then reading is a bother and I wish you'd just show pics of:

what does the inner bearing on each motor sit on...I guess a hanger you lathed and the stator is sitting on the aluminum?

and the outside of the rotor is just a tight fit against thane and doesn't slip when accelerating or braking?

and you drilled out the bearing tube of the stator and pressed/glued it on?


that piece in you last photo, which looks like a holey bearing housing seems a lucky rarity in outrunners and seems to be the magic ingredient in your method.
So no other parts and just the bearings as they come and simply a squeeze-fit into a wheel you cut....I couldn't even get those wheels to cut without them crumbling.

pretty awesome in it's doing with nothing.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Hightower » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:55 am

Awesome build, thanks for sharing! It looks like you've inspired other to follow suit with hub motors.

It's good to see a successful, powerfull build with the hub motor tech.

Should be fine with one wheel. Plenty of people are going 1 wheel drive.

-I don't think one wheel is a good choice for hub motors. You've already blown a couple ESC's it sounds like, and that's most likely from high amp draw due to moments of high load acceleration (the highest draws come from a full stop, and up steep hills). Your amp draw is being divided between two motors. Using a single drive hub motor would pop esc's like popcorn and keep HK in business on ESC's alone (lets hope VESC can solve that :D ).

I think what you have achieved is amazing and might be difficult for most to recreate properly and have the same results.

Curious though, you said you milled the wheels to bore out the center, as well as the trucks to create a keyway to mount the hub motor...
You also mentioned that you used a lathe on the paris trucks, was this to remove the natural taper of the truck so there wasn't a motor conflict?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Outgrown » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:00 am

Hightower wrote:Awesome build, thanks for sharing! It looks like you've inspired other to follow suit with hub motors.

It's good to see a successful, powerfull build with the hub motor tech.

Should be fine with one wheel. Plenty of people are going 1 wheel drive.

-I don't think one wheel is a good choice for hub motors. You've already blown a couple ESC's it sounds like, and that's most likely from high amp draw due to moments of high load acceleration (the highest draws come from a full stop, and up steep hills). Your amp draw is being divided between two motors. Using a single drive hub motor would pop esc's like popcorn and keep HK in business on ESC's alone (lets hope VESC can solve that :D ).

I think what you have achieved is amazing and might be difficult for most to recreate properly and have the same results.

Curious though, you said you milled the wheels to bore out the center, as well as the trucks to create a keyway to mount the hub motor...
You also mentioned that you used a lathe on the paris trucks, was this to remove the natural taper of the truck so there wasn't a motor conflict?


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/in ... h-in-wheel
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Hightower » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:31 am

Haha yeah that monolith is pretty cool. I was more or less referring to your average DIYer, not an engineering company/collaboration lol

They have an interesting build, but i'd rather buy Stielz's board :twisted: based on his claims
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby LEVer » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:33 am

Hightower wrote:... as well as the trucks to create a keyway to mount the hub motor...


He already mentioned he glued the stator on the truck.

If you guys need more info, there is Justin's thread with loads of pictures, viewtopic.php?f=35&t=49557

Also, stop putting the Monolith link. Justin's thread is 2 years old, so we already know its possible. Who knows, maybe the Monolith guys could have even been inspired by it.

Stielz also finished this board two years ago. And the videos you see from him are raw and not Kickstarter-like edited. :wink:
Last edited by LEVer on Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby matty_x » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:07 pm

I'm curious how the glued-on urethane on the motor cans would hold up under power sliding conditions. The beginning of a slide puts a lot of perpendicular force onto the urethane, which might result in the urethane coming loose from the motor cans.

I've "cored" wheels doing power slides before, where the plastic cores actually detach from the urethane. I've also had the bearings rip out of wheels before. This was with quality, well-regarded wheels, not eBay knockoffs. TFW you're watching your wheel bounce, bounce, bounce down the road as you're gaining speed and then realizing, oh crap...

Of course, if you don't powerslide, this is not a concern. But where's the fun in that?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Stielz » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:48 pm

matty_x wrote:I'm curious how the glued-on urethane on the motor cans would hold up under power sliding conditions. The beginning of a slide puts a lot of perpendicular force onto the urethane, which might result in the urethane coming loose from the motor cans.

I've "cored" wheels doing power slides before, where the plastic cores actually detach from the urethane. I've also had the bearings rip out of wheels before. This was with quality, well-regarded wheels, not eBay knockoffs. TFW you're watching your wheel bounce, bounce, bounce down the road as you're gaining speed and then realizing, oh crap...

Of course, if you don't powerslide, this is not a concern. But where's the fun in that?


Can't say, I havent done any power slides. Never learnt how and don't have the need for it cause braking is done through the motors..
I do think Its held on pretty solid though. Lots of surface area and using an adhesive that bonds to both materials. I dread the day when I have to replace the wheel cause thats going to be a mission to remove.

My concern would be the small bearing giving out under high axial load.

But in saying that, Ive done plenty of hard cornering where I feel its right on the verge of sliding and haven't seen any signs of problems.

Hightower wrote:Awesome build, thanks for sharing! It looks like you've inspired other to follow suit with hub motors.

It's good to see a successful, powerfull build with the hub motor tech.

Should be fine with one wheel. Plenty of people are going 1 wheel drive.

-I don't think one wheel is a good choice for hub motors. You've already blown a couple ESC's it sounds like, and that's most likely from high amp draw due to moments of high load acceleration (the highest draws come from a full stop, and up steep hills). Your amp draw is being divided between two motors. Using a single drive hub motor would pop esc's like popcorn and keep HK in business on ESC's alone (lets hope VESC can solve that :D ).

I think what you have achieved is amazing and might be difficult for most to recreate properly and have the same results.

Curious though, you said you milled the wheels to bore out the center, as well as the trucks to create a keyway to mount the hub motor...
You also mentioned that you used a lathe on the paris trucks, was this to remove the natural taper of the truck so there wasn't a motor conflict?


Good point regarding the ESC. The current regulated VESC will hopefully solve that problem.

Machining on the trucks is to remove the taper and to just remove a small amount of material to get the stator to fit over.

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:hows it do on hills with the 145kv...maybe it doesn't matter since you have so much meat jammed in two cans. :evil:

I still don't know many things about how you did this but then reading is a bother and I wish you'd just show pics of:

what does the inner bearing on each motor sit on...I guess a hanger you lathed and the stator is sitting on the aluminum?

and the outside of the rotor is just a tight fit against thane and doesn't slip when accelerating or braking?

and you drilled out the bearing tube of the stator and pressed/glued it on?


that piece in you last photo, which looks like a holey bearing housing seems a lucky rarity in outrunners and seems to be the magic ingredient in your method.
So no other parts and just the bearings as they come and simply a squeeze-fit into a wheel you cut....I couldn't even get those wheels to cut without them crumbling.

pretty awesome in it's doing with nothing.


It goes up hills all good. I dont push it hard though for fear of blowing the ESCs.

The bearing tube of the stator has the housing for the inner (skirt) bearing. I cut this off and glued it to the trucks. Here I do remember what glue I used, 3M DP420. Good stuff, often used on e-bike torque arms.

Wheels are glued to the rotor.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby dirkdiggler » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:49 pm

I just might have to try a hub motor in the future. Time for a new build?
Great job on the setup. Wish you would have posted it up sooner for the rest of the ES crowd, they might have been further along right now. Justins hub motor build wasn't as DIY friendly,
I'm wondering about your bike build though. Are you going to try out the VESC on it? I read you had the Alien ESC for it. I'm interested to see if either ESC holds up to some abuse. Specifically as you're using the melon motor (80-100). I've got two of those motors that I'm trying to do builds a surfboard and pitbike. Looks like you're the type to give the bike some amps! I don't think I've read anyone else using either for bikes.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby mikebikerad » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:43 am

The sound of those low KV outrunners under load is just AWESOME!! really nice build. We always had problems with the stiff phase wires right where they exit to motors rubbing together and shorting. Looks like you have extra shrink on them.....nice.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby barajabali » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:43 am

Anyone copy this successfully? I'm waiting on my 145kv sk3 to come in its on back order
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Nordle » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:09 am

barajabali wrote:Anyone copy this successfully? I'm waiting on my 145kv sk3 to come in its on back order

There are some other hub motor builders here on E-S, you should read Pediglides build somewhere page 1 in this sub-forum;)
Mine are still in progress, but they spin:D only trouble with my remote^^

@Stielz, Great Work!
Can you tell us which halls did you use? I Plan to add some when i add my second motor.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby barajabali » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:34 pm

is any one looking to buy some of these?
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby mccloed » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:08 pm

Can you tell us which halls did you use? I Plan to add some when i add my second motor.[/quote]

These are the typical sensors that are used: ATS177-B-A type low-hysteresis digital latch Hall Effect sensors

I purchased mine here: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/1301438

Seem to work, so far.
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Re: Fast electric longboard – Dual hub motor

Postby Stielz » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:26 am

pretty much any latching bipolar hall sensor will work. The key is to get one in the surface mount package. the through hole package hall sensors typically used dont fit in the stator teeth slots. Quite difficult to do but i soldered fine wires onto the pins of the SMD package, wrapped the sensor in heat shrink and expoy them in place
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