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addicted2climbing   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by addicted2climbing » May 25 2015 4:30pm

2wayspeaker wrote:I don't get something.
How is the "stator" (that actually moves) held together on the assembly under lateral force except by a very tolerant fitting?
This seems grossly insufficient?
Or perhaps I interpreted it wrong: Here's what I think I'm looking at.
Image

I also do not like the fact that you need a completely custom truck. I'd be a way better design starategy to make it fit current trucks.
I have had a look at your text tags to my model and yes you are missing something. The item you label as a rubber ring is actually a threaded steel retention ring; It locks down that bearing You also have the rotor and stator labeled backward. The motor stator is fixed to the main shaft and the phase wires run through the holes in the end. I have purposely left a .5mm gap between the main shaft and the bearing stack. During first assembly, the amount of axial slop can be measured by moving the main shaft up and down. Once measures, i then can install the proper shim so that the axial slop is removed for a perfect fit. This is done so that I don't have to rely on exact machining tolerances which could over stress the bearing during assembly if the tolerances were opposite of each other between the bearing stack and the rotor shaft. In regards to settling on a certain truck, its not a custom truck, but an off the shelf fully CNC'd truck that already has a removable 10mm axle. The Axle is removed and the motor installed and locked in place. This will be the first iteration produced, but I version can be made to also interface with any truck as well. There are some advantages in the design in going with a truck that has a removable axle which is why we designed around trucks with that feature. Equally so there are disadvantages in designing a motor for the standard layout most skate trucks have. Mostly in the area of locking the motor down to the stock axle to transfer the torque. I have a good way to do it, but for now, want to peruse this version with the 10mm axle. Also the smaller bearing can take much more axial force then this wheel could exert on the small bearing. Also with the shims the forces will be lessened as there wont be any shock load from slop moving in or out as you turn.

Bets regards,

Marc

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by 2wayspeaker » May 25 2015 5:20pm

I was unsure how to label an outrunner, hence the ". Usually stator has magnets and stands still. Rotor has the windings and rotates.

Where is the rubber that was spoken off?

So the brown ring is a screw, to me threading that looks like an expensive operation.
The way you do it is used to fix conical bearings over a conical shaft. I like the idea of the shim to reduce tolerances.
It also looks like it could unscrew when you use the wheel CCW and comes to a stop and I'm generally not a fan of threaded thins on rattling/vibrating parts. If you do go with threading use a fine pitch.
A cheaper design could be an inner circlips or a sheet metal cutout that can be fixed into the rotor and drops the green flange.
But I concede both those methods allow for the slop you want to avoid.

Also why is there a non rounded hex shape imbedded in the blue stator? People need to be able to machine this part out of aluminium I suppose? That's also going to be very dificult and therefore costly.

Also definitely do some simulations of the load on this truck/wheel connection. There's a good reason current trucks have an 8mm steel center. EDIT: but if you follow the original design of the cnc truck this has probably been done and verified by them.

When you design pieces keep in mind how the mechanics are going to go about creating the piece. Setup time is very important here, try to design it in such a way that a five axis cnc mill or a cnc lathe can mill/turn it from a single clamping position. Mechanics hate repositioning a piece to within very specific tolerances.

I also don't mean to sound harsh. So try not to take it like that. I'm just picking at your design in a way to hopefully cause you to think about something you forgot to account for, as this will help the design.

addicted2climbing   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by addicted2climbing » May 25 2015 5:49pm

2wayspeaker wrote:I was unsure how to label an outrunner, hence the ". Usually stator has magnets and stands still. Rotor has the windings and rotates.

Where is the rubber that was spoken off?

So the brown ring is a screw, to me threading that looks like an expensive operation.
The way you do it is used to fix conical bearings over a conical shaft. I like the idea of the shim to reduce tolerances.
It also looks like it could unscrew when you use the wheel CCW and comes to a stop and I'm generally not a fan of threaded thins on rattling/vibrating parts. If you do go with threading use a fine pitch.
A cheaper design could be an inner circlips or a sheet metal cutout that can be fixed into the rotor and drops the green flange.
But I concede both those methods allow for the slop you want to avoid.

Also why is there a non rounded hex shape imbedded in the blue stator? People need to be able to machine this part out of aluminium I suppose? That's also going to be very dificult and therefore costly.

Also definitely do some simulations of the load on this truck/wheel connection. There's a good reason current trucks have an 8mm steel center. EDIT: but if you follow the original design of the cnc truck this has probably been done and verified by them.

When you design pieces keep in mind how the mechanics are going to go about creating the piece. Setup time is very important here, try to design it in such a way that a five axis cnc mill or a cnc lathe can mill/turn it from a single clamping position. Mechanics hate repositioning a piece to within very specific tolerances.

I also don't mean to sound harsh. So try not to take it like that. I'm just picking at your design in a way to hopefully cause you to think about something you forgot to account for, as this will help the design.
The Sharp cornered feature in the end of the main shaft is for a hex to tighten the wheel to the truck. It is not machined, its broached. Broaching is easy and its how hex features are made when machining. I am well aware with trying to minimize setups to lower cost as I also have my own aviation related product I manufacture and machine as well. This design has been iterated many times and I have not had a chance to optimize it in any way for machining yet.

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bandaro   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by bandaro » May 26 2015 8:47am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:Having it fit only the surfrodz ... I'd like feedback of any sort

Wait, these are based of the surfrodz? The model that retail for $200 USD? so your setup will be based on 200 plus motors?

If you want feedback, this is probably too expensive for me. I would suggest adapting the hanger/motor so that they will fit a cheaper base plate, such as caliber, depending on what works style wise. This way you manufacture the motor similar to current plans, and get a custom hanger manufactured as well. I feel you could have something cast then machined and buy a baseplate for much less than you could buy the surfrodz trucks. More profit for you, cheaper for us. My $0.02

jacobbloy   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by jacobbloy » May 26 2015 11:27am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:We changed the design again. This JPEG is missing the outer flange that will bolt on so the rubber can be removed without taking the motor apart. This is the final design! Please tell us what u think

Those are interesting Jacob but isn't that the same design as before? From what I remember of your last iteration, which looks exactly the same, they didn't go due to tolerance issues. I assume you will get the tolerances good enough this time and hopefully the people who bought your stuff before will get something that works from you.

But let's compare the designs:
There are double the interfaces in your design: double the risk of movement and double the possibility of having slop. Your design had/has no secure way to mount the motor that anyone could consider safe. It also effectively has an aluminum axle that must support weight. Smaller bearings. Have to take the motor apart to change rubber. The mounting bolts on yours strip really easily, I stripped them, they're small and many. What other differences?
I didn't post to take away from what your doing mate! Don't judge just because! I'm trying my best!

jacobbloy   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by jacobbloy » May 26 2015 11:36am

Also if you want to make your design cheaper rey trucks are very nice and cheaper they have removable axels the same as surfrods! They also have a smaller hanger that you can use to accomidate for the wider wheel base, there hangers are also comparable with caliber, paris, randle and I'm sure some others so for $60 instead of $200 ppl can use your motor But trucks are a personal choice not every one will be happy.

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by torqueboards » May 26 2015 12:18pm

jacobbloy wrote:Also if you want to make your design cheaper rey trucks are very nice and cheaper they have removable axels the same as surfrods! They also have a smaller hanger that you can use to accomidate for the wider wheel base, there hangers are also comparable with caliber, paris, randle and I'm sure some others so for $60 instead of $200 ppl can use your motor But trucks are a personal choice not every one will be happy.
Rey trucks are about the same price also. SurfRodz Classic RKP's price dropped too. Use to be $200 I think it's more around $160 now.
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addicted2climbing   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by addicted2climbing » May 26 2015 12:29pm

torqueboards wrote:
jacobbloy wrote:Also if you want to make your design cheaper rey trucks are very nice and cheaper they have removable axels the same as surfrods! They also have a smaller hanger that you can use to accomidate for the wider wheel base, there hangers are also comparable with caliber, paris, randle and I'm sure some others so for $60 instead of $200 ppl can use your motor But trucks are a personal choice not every one will be happy.
Rey trucks are about the same price also. SurfRodz Classic RKP's price dropped too. Use to be $200 I think it's more around $160 now.
Price for the 10mm axle version is $160 a pair, but I plan to get lower pricing. Also may push to have a special 10mm Hybriidz model made for this as that version is already cheaper for them to produce then the standard RKP since they are machined from extrusions.

Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » May 26 2015 2:31pm

jacobbloy wrote:
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:We changed the design again. This JPEG is missing the outer flange that will bolt on so the rubber can be removed without taking the motor apart. This is the final design! Please tell us what u think

Those are interesting Jacob but isn't that the same design as before? From what I remember of your last iteration, which looks exactly the same, they didn't go due to tolerance issues. I assume you will get the tolerances good enough this time and hopefully the people who bought your stuff before will get something that works from you.

But let's compare the designs:
There are double the interfaces in your design: double the risk of movement and double the possibility of having slop. Your design had/has no secure way to mount the motor that anyone could consider safe. It also effectively has an aluminum axle that must support weight. Smaller bearings. Have to take the motor apart to change rubber. The mounting bolts on yours strip really easily, I stripped them, they're small and many. What other differences?
I didn't post to take away from what your doing mate! Don't judge just because! I'm trying my best!
Sorry if I sounded rude. I'm not meaning to attack you personally or even your motors. Just trying/hoping to bring it all out in the light so we can honestly assess what we're doing and both benefit from it.

Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jun 24 2015 3:25am

Marc finished all the 2d drawings and now finally I'll get quotes in a day or two or three.

we changed the plan so many times and the latest final change is a biggy
It'll screw on a standard 8mm axle...and be held with Loctite! Loctite is strong stuff. This route it can be used with any 8mm trucks and be lighter and cheaper with an aluminum stator tube instead of the needed steel to go with the expensive surfrodz.

we gave up on trying to jam enough motor into one wheel and two will be necessary but it's not really a compromise as there are benefits of two motors when riding and the smaller motors are fully recessed into the wheel and therefore more durable.
Attachments
Hub Motor Assy - Inner Flange V3.pdf
(172.26 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
Stator Hub - Inner Flange Motor V3.pdf
(64.08 KiB) Downloaded 151 times

Freshair   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Freshair » Jun 24 2015 10:57am

You honestly think Loctite will be strong enough? A lot of torque from accelerating and stopping is going to be directed straight into unscrewing the motor from those threads. Used Loctite on the bolts for my snowboard bindings, to keep them from backing off, but I could still quite easily undo the bolts with simple force from a screwdriver, surely these motors will see a greater amount of force than what my hand and a screwdriver can produce.
Now maybe if you permanently epoxied the motor to the axle threads, but that would defeat the purpose of having a hubmotor you can take off and replace bearings on, or to slap on normal wheels.
Like the design, but think how they will be secured is not so good.
Low impact to no impact

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by torqueboards » Jun 24 2015 11:03am

Yeah, why screw it in.

I'd prefer an option similar to Pediglide in which you can actually remove the nut.
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Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jun 24 2015 1:43pm

judging by the ft/pounds a 100kv 60mm outrunner can produce, and the foot/pounds of Loctite red or other epoxy can hold, and the surface area of the axle.. it should be fine. It would be permanent but the only part that wouldn't be accessible is the huge bearing on the inside, which is so overbuild that I highly doubt it'd ever need to be changed unless people were riding in the rain. All the other parts would be replaceable. epoxy can be super strong
we were going to go with surfrodz and their 10mm axle and a pin...but the cost, and weight... This is much cheaper.

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LEVer   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by LEVer » Jun 24 2015 1:59pm

Why don't you add a thick flange on the stator core so that you can slip it over a circular hanger like Paris. Then put set screws on them.

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jun 24 2015 2:35pm

Could do that peri but if the glue fits you must acquit. The motor could put out roughly 15 foot pounds of torque and the glue will be able to go way beyond that. Loctite is best for threads but a two part epoxy for the whole axle sounds best with so much of it being threadless. I did a test of just red loctite on just the threads and got 35 ft pounds resistance. That's not even using the large majority of the axle. And then with two motors things are even more in our favor.

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bandaro   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by bandaro » Jun 25 2015 3:32am

Well, seems I just broke a motor shaft. This, combined with the fact that I didn't find the little 40mm motors with their 40kph speed and grunt to be enough means I will be fast tracking some hub motors myself. I have an abundance of kit here to fit them to so all shall be grand. Given these are not ready, and pedi's are a bit of a wait, and I have the relevant skills/tools/materials to make some, I'm thinking I will do just that.

Any suggestions on buying? Would I be better off getting one of pedi's? anyone tried a 50mm motor or is 63 the only way? More to tell myself than you guys (because I want to get back riding!) these WILL be running 2 weeks after I get parts if I go that way. Is it just the motors I will need or might I come across a nasty surprise and find I need some other kit as well?

2015-06-25 17.43.36.jpg
2015-06-25 17.43.36.jpg (241.44 KiB) Viewed 413 times

On a plus side, it means I will want to make the moulding for a much lower deck designed specifically for the hub motors now that I have finished the prototyping of a topmount deck for regular motor mounting. I make a perfect model for this already, speedboard/tech slide with a nice cereal bowl cave, boob drop up front and w out back. May even cut it as a dropthrough and use it for powersliding. MMMMMMM.

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psychotiller   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by psychotiller » Jun 25 2015 3:59am

bandaro wrote:Well, seems I just broke a motor shaft. This, combined with the fact that I didn't find the little 40mm motors with their 40kph speed and grunt to be enough means I will be fast tracking some hub motors myself. I have an abundance of kit here to fit them to so all shall be grand. Given these are not ready, and pedi's are a bit of a wait, and I have the relevant skills/tools/materials to make some, I'm thinking I will do just that.

Any suggestions on buying? Would I be better off getting one of pedi's? anyone tried a 50mm motor or is 63 the only way? More to tell myself than you guys (because I want to get back riding!) these WILL be running 2 weeks after I get parts if I go that way. Is it just the motors I will need or might I come across a nasty surprise and find I need some other kit as well?

2015-06-25 17.43.36.jpg

On a plus side, it means I will want to make the moulding for a much lower deck designed specifically for the hub motors now that I have finished the prototyping of a topmount deck for regular motor mounting. I make a perfect model for this already, speedboard/tech slide with a nice cereal bowl cave, boob drop up front and w out back. May even cut it as a dropthrough and use it for powersliding. MMMMMMM.
I rode Pediglide's hubmotor set up and was really impressed. He has them on ebay right now.
www.psychotiller.com

builds:
XT Wheels/Custom Hub & mount on Randal 180's/Drop Throughhttp://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=59259
6" Pneumatic Tire Drop Down/Drop Through http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=60449
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elkick   100 W

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by elkick » Jun 25 2015 11:12am

I'm driving Pediglide's hubmotors now for more then 100km and I have to admit it outperforms any other setup I've been riding before by far. It's not only the speed, but also breaking, acceleration and accuracy of the boards behavior which makes it different.
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Hummina Shadeeba   1 MW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jun 25 2015 12:19pm

bandaro wrote:Well, seems I just broke a motor shaft. This, combined with the fact that I didn't find the little 40mm motors with their 40kph speed and grunt to be enough means I will be fast tracking some hub motors myself. I have an abundance of kit here to fit them to so all shall be grand. Given these are not ready, and pedi's are a bit of a wait, and I have the relevant skills/tools/materials to make some, I'm thinking I will do just that.

Any suggestions on buying? Would I be better off getting one of pedi's? anyone tried a 50mm motor or is 63 the only way? More to tell myself than you guys (because I want to get back riding!) these WILL be running 2 weeks after I get parts if I go that way. Is it just the motors I will need or might I come across a nasty surprise and find I need some other kit as well?

2015-06-25 17.43.36.jpg

On a plus side, it means I will want to make the moulding for a much lower deck designed specifically for the hub motors now that I have finished the prototyping of a topmount deck for regular motor mounting. I make a perfect model for this already, speedboard/tech slide with a nice cereal bowl cave, boob drop up front and w out back. May even cut it as a dropthrough and use it for powersliding. MMMMMMM.
The motor peri uses is unique with a skirt bearing. U probably know. I don't know if any other motors have it.

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LEVer   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by LEVer » Jun 25 2015 1:59pm

psychotiller wrote: ....

I rode Pediglide's hubmotor set up and was really impressed. He has them on ebay right now.
I increased the prices on Ebay to cover the fees and crazy buyers. Check my for sale thread for better pricing.

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psychotiller   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by psychotiller » Jun 25 2015 2:06pm

Pediglide wrote:
psychotiller wrote: ....

I rode Pediglide's hubmotor set up and was really impressed. He has them on ebay right now.
I increased the prices on Ebay to cover the fees and crazy buyers. Check my for sale thread for better pricing.
Hahaha...Sales would be great if it weren't for all those damn customers with outrageous expectations :lol:
www.psychotiller.com

builds:
XT Wheels/Custom Hub & mount on Randal 180's/Drop Throughhttp://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=59259
6" Pneumatic Tire Drop Down/Drop Through http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=60449
"Have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons!"-Vizzini

espeed   1 µW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by espeed » Jun 25 2015 2:26pm

Pediglide wrote: I increased the prices on Ebay to cover the fees and crazy buyers. Check my for sale thread for better pricing.
hmmm...With the attitude you have, I'd be very wary of your customer service. Doesn't seem like you respect your customers at all.

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psychotiller   10 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by psychotiller » Jun 25 2015 2:38pm

espeed wrote:
Pediglide wrote: I increased the prices on Ebay to cover the fees and crazy buyers. Check my for sale thread for better pricing.
hmmm...With the attitude you have, I'd be very wary of your customer service. Doesn't seem like you respect your customers at all.
How much have you sold on ebay? Staying ahead of customer expectations (especially one's who actually believe they are always right even when they're not) is smart business. Seeing as you have an instant stance in favor of the "customer" I'd be wary of selling to you. Doesn't seem like you respect innovators at all.
www.psychotiller.com

builds:
XT Wheels/Custom Hub & mount on Randal 180's/Drop Throughhttp://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=59259
6" Pneumatic Tire Drop Down/Drop Through http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=60449
"Have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons!"-Vizzini

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okp   100 kW

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by okp » Jun 25 2015 2:55pm

+1

torque, how is your 4WD going on ?!

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Re: community project HUB MOTOR

Post by espeed » Jun 25 2015 3:02pm

psychotiller wrote: How much have you sold on ebay? Staying ahead of customer expectations (especially one's who actually believe they are always right even when they're not) is smart business. Seeing as you have an instant stance in favor of the "customer" I'd be wary of selling to you. Doesn't seem like you respect innovators at all.
I actually am an innovator myself and have sold many things on and off ebay. I have also had my share of complications with customers. The key to a successful business is always customer satisfaction. I don't think its wrong to raise prices to stay ahead of costs, but calling your customers "crazy" is another story. Its disrespectful and pretty telling of pediglides' whole attitude regarding his customers. I didn't just default to defending the customer side I was prompted by pediglide calling his customers crazy. I'm not sure why you are taking offence to this since my comment was not for you, even though you seem to have the same attitude as he does.

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