Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by eboostin » Jun 29 2015 10:32pm

One more question, where did you order the batteries from? I can't seem to find them as cheap as you did.



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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by whitepony » Jun 30 2015 3:41am

quick feedback - ive done several high power 30-35km tours by now, often with an average speed of 22-26km/h, always carving quite hard, also with quite some lengthy hills up to 10% uphill & downhill slopes - most of the time I ended up with sore legs and about 35-37V on the battery under these really demanding circumstances.

35-37V is, with a generous cutoff at 30ish volts, probably around 1/3rd of a charge left, so I would say under lots of stress 45-50km is really reasonable (under pretty much identical circumstances, the original battery lasted me at MOST 15km!!). Under easy riding conditions I would assume that I hit 60km+ easily, but its something I just cant ride in one go. :D

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by onloop » Jun 30 2015 6:26am

whitepony wrote:quick feedback - ive done several high power 30-35km ..... most of the time I ended up with sore legs.... I would assume that I hit 60km+ easily, but its something I just cant ride in one go. :D

this is really great results.... maybe evolve is listening? hello Evolve?...

The point you make about sore legs, it's so true.... I really don't think a lot of people consider this fact, I think most people would believe that riding an electric vehicle, such as a skateboard, is easy and requires zero effort!! WRONG :lol:

I strongly believe that a battery that can last approx 1hr, approx 25-30km range, is more then enough in most cases. To ride longer requires a certain level of endurance that you might not want to 'endure' and maybe at this point a car, train or bus is actually worth considering.

Of course if you can have a 1 or 2 hour rest after the first 20km, (stop & recharge - literally) I think then you can easily travel another 20 or 30km..

So the point worth considering when building your own electric skateboard, and selecting your battery, is to find a perfect ratio of Battery Weight, Range & Physical Endurance that you are comfortable with.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by okp » Jun 30 2015 8:44am

fully agree with onloop; wise words!

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by longhairedboy » Jun 30 2015 9:05am

I can go about an hour before my feet go tingly and i have to get off and walk around. My legs are good, but my feet practically go numb. I've been thinking about getting some more expensive skate shoes, or maybe even some nike airs or gel insoles or something. By the time the battery is dead i'm ready to be done for a couple hours like onloop said.

I found some more of these batteries on a US site (i think its a US site)
https://www.fasttech.com/

they sell them by the pair for about $12, so $6 each. I threw 60 total in a cart to add it all up and it worked out to be about $358.20 with the 10+ bulk discount. Plus BMS, volt display and switch of course if you're building from scratch, which i suppose could add another $100.

Totally worth it if you want to max out the return on your battery investment. I kind of feel inspired to build my own pack now. If course i'm far more broke than inspired, but inspired nonetheless. Also I have a space cell sitting on my shelf waiting for a new ESC, mounts, pulleys, and motors, so by the time i go to build a pack they'll have a better, more cost effective cell on sale i'm sure.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by onloop » Jun 30 2015 9:27am

longhairedboy wrote: so by the time i go to build a pack they'll have a better, more cost effective cell on sale i'm sure.

Rest assured...... Nothing is more cost effective OR better then the Enertion S.P.A.C.E Cell....

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by eboostin » Jun 30 2015 11:57pm

onloop wrote:
longhairedboy wrote: so by the time i go to build a pack they'll have a better, more cost effective cell on sale i'm sure.

Rest assured...... Nothing is more cost effective OR better then the Enertion S.P.A.C.E Cell....
I'm curious why you say that. I looked at the space cell and it looks like a fantastic solution! But, it said it is a 10s3p so wouldn't that offer roughly half the range of the DIY pack in this thread? I can't image the cells in the space cell are too much higher than 3400mAh but I could be wrong. Still trying to learn as much as possible :)

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by onloop » Jul 01 2015 12:57am

eboostin wrote:
I'm curious why you say that. I looked at the space cell and it looks like a fantastic solution! But, it said it is a 10s3p so wouldn't that offer roughly half the range of the DIY pack in this thread? I can't image the cells in the space cell are too much higher than 3400mAh but I could be wrong. Still trying to learn as much as possible :)

Yes you are correct, SPACE CELL only has 30 Cells total, they are also much lower capacity at only 2500mah, but what is important is cell performance!

So for comparison sake; S.P.A.C.E Cell is 36Vnom 7.5AH (LG He2) VS White Pony battery who is 36Vnom 20Ah (pana NCR18650b)

So S.P.A.C.E Cell is much smaller & lighter with just half the amount of cells and on paper has about 62% less capacity, however you need to consider the real world rate of discharge, what is the usable capacity of the cell?, What rate does the cell discharge at when under load?. So you can have a larger capacity battery pack that actually discharges quicker due to voltage sagging... it is all about performance of the cell under load.. these graphs below can show you the performance side-by-side.

Panasonic NCR18650b this is discharge rate of just one cell.
Image

LG HE2 this is discharge rate of just one cell.
Image

These graphs are showing a constant discharge of just 4 amps. So as you increase the rate of discharge, as would occur in a skateboard, the Panasonic would actually discharge much quicker again.

As an example, lets just say your BMS voltage cut off is set to 3.0V per cell, both these cells will last about 33mins. So the extra 900mah of the Panasonic does nothing because you can't use it.

So I suppose what I was trying to say is that I think the S.P.A.C.E Cell is very good value, It is compact, very powerful and good discharge performance, and because I don't want to ride much longer than 1hr it is suitable for me.
So therefore I don't need to pay for more cells to increase the capacity, to have longer range when you won't actually use it. Also more cells = more weight so it can slightly impact performance (acceleration) and is also heavier to carry.... also the S.P.A.C.E Cell has the BMS & On/OFF switch built in, plus it has a digital fuel gauge....

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by torqueboards » Jul 01 2015 1:28am

Samsung 25R specs seem quite close to the LG HE2.

Is the price difference worth the LG HE2? The difference doesn't look much noticeable if at all worth the added cost?

I would imagine the LG HE2 would cost more.
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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by onloop » Jul 01 2015 2:08am

torqueboards wrote:Samsung 25R specs seem quite close to the LG HE2.

Is the price difference worth the LG HE2? The difference doesn't look much noticeable if at all worth the added cost?

I would imagine the LG HE2 would cost more.

It really depends on your supplier, some places can get Samsung 25r cheap but they have no idea about building quality packs. Some places can build electrically advanced packs but only want to use shit low grade no-name cells. My supplier has reliable supply of HE2 at better prices than r25 and has the experience and willingness to build the kind of pack that i require.

let me tell you it wasn't an easy or cheap process! lots of bullshit to sift through.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by riba2233 » Jul 01 2015 2:23am

torqueboards wrote:Samsung 25R specs seem quite close to the LG HE2.

Is the price difference worth the LG HE2? The difference doesn't look much noticeable if at all worth the added cost?

I would imagine the LG HE2 would cost more.
They have same performance, but 25R has better chemistry and it's usually cheaper.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by longhairedboy » Jul 01 2015 7:41am

Just did a very preliminary search for the LG HE2 2500 mAh 18650s on amazon... the supply looks hit or miss. Nobody seems to have a lot of them, but they do seem to be going for under $6 a piece, so price wise are comparable to the ones in this build thread. You would just have to scatter your order around a bit it seems if you wanted to build this pack with the LGs instead.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by riba2233 » Jul 01 2015 8:55am

Please don't look in such places for 18650 cells and then compare cells.

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-si ... 0-25r.html

You really need to know where to look.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by torqueboards » Jul 01 2015 9:06am

riba2233 wrote:They have same performance, but 25R has better chemistry and it's usually cheaper.
Thanks.. Looked it up and Samsung 25R does look a lot better IMO.
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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by whitepony » Jul 01 2015 11:38am

well, I did my homework ... lets go real world and compare actual values that an evolve owner sucks from his battery: the motor is set to use about 350watt and this proves to actually be a very reasonable heavy load average consumption based on my real world testing (my current DIY battery is drained in about 2 hours and it has 750Wh - and thats really under heavy load, the battery should be able to last me 3h+ in the 18km/h zero carving mode).

soo, in a 6p setup, each cell has to deliver about 1.5A as constant stream under heavy load, could be generous and make it 2A. now, the only really interesting compilation of many batteries can be found here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries20 ... %20UK.html

for the evolve board with a cutoff around 30V the discharge capacity down to 3V per cell is the most reasonable one to look at:

Image

what you can see there is, that the capacity kinda breaks down a little bit when you go from 3A to 5A discharge current BUT even at 5A the cell is among the top contenders you can buy if you just want a high capacity, certainly the best value per money overall. of course, in a 3P setup like your space cell, each cell has to deliver more current in the same application, even more so for the high power outrunners that people use in their DIY projects - that changes the game completely. for the evolve however I think its very hard to beat the panasonic in any aspect!

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by torqueboards » Jul 01 2015 11:59am

That makes sense. No point in comparing the two setups. Evolve vs DIY.
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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by longhairedboy » Jul 01 2015 12:17pm

riba2233 wrote:Please don't look in such places for 18650 cells and then compare cells.

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-si ... 0-25r.html

You really need to know where to look.
I live in the US and wherever possible I will order parts from vendors in the US.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by riba2233 » Jul 01 2015 12:30pm

longhairedboy wrote:
riba2233 wrote:Please don't look in such places for 18650 cells and then compare cells.

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-si ... 0-25r.html

You really need to know where to look.
I live in the US and wherever possible I will order parts from vendors in the US.

Good luck with that! But not everyone likes to waste his money... Show me one US supplier that has prices near as low as nkon... I haven't found such by now.


@whitepony - lygte graph doesn't include new 3500 mah cells, which have lower price, much higher discharge rate, and of course larger capacity. Samsung 35E...

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by whitepony » Jul 01 2015 12:33pm

hey riba: good to know, lygte is the only reasonable source I had for my project.

I think its important to note, that when you build a really large battery like I did with a 6P setup, "voltage sagging" will become less and less of an issue, because the cells share the current load - so youll be ending up closer and closer at the manufacturers capacity. :idea:

about the "1hour is enough for me" thing: the facebook owners group is full of people who take the hobby to a maximum and really enjoy extended tours with their AT boards. think once you lift the limitations of good pavement, the world suddenly becomes really large and an activity radius of 3h/50km allows a lot of things that were impossible before! :)

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by onloop » Jul 01 2015 9:18pm

All i can say is that i think this is a really great topic....

if you go into the ES bike threads everyone is talking about different battery tech, different chemistry, how they build batteries, you look in the Eboard section and everyone is just talking about how cheap they bought their lipos from hobbyking.

Eboard builders need to become more educated about 18650 form factor, so thank you for creating this thread WHite Pony. I really think education is most important. People learn by seeing what others have done.

Yes, I agree that your 6 groups in parallel won't suffer the voltage drop. So I 100% agree no point spending $$ more on cells. The panasonic is a great cell.
I believe everyone's goal should be to build a pack to match exactly the performance (amp draw, weight, size, price) they require. If I was building a big 6P pack I would choose the cheapest quality brand name cell that can output the amps I need to power the vehicle I am building.

So for me I needed the pack to fit in my new carbon fiber all-in-one deck with DUAL ESC, I also don't like riding long decks (the evolve carbon is 111cm long VS Enertion Carbon 98cm). I personally prefer smaller wheel base. So literally I can't fit anymore groups in parallel.... Although if I put the ESC under the kick tail I can go 10S4P Easily but will still need to use HE2 or 25R equivalent Cells to feed my hungry brushless outrunners!.
Image

Never should your battery be underrated,
but also never should your battery be too crazily over spec'd
(unless you have endless money & don't care about size/weight etc)
- it is a very fine balance & each rig is different.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by bandaro » Jul 02 2015 6:49am

Personally, the quantity of battery is easy: As much battery as you are willing to carry - speaking weight-wise.

The quality of the packs, lifespan, ease of use etc are determined by the dollars you have relative to skills/energy. For me, it's worth saving the 200 bucks and getting HK lipo over the space cells, I have the skills/passion/time to make my own just how I want, and that is to a far higher level than most go, talking rewiring loose cells... I may go 26650 for my next when lipo die, shall evaluate then.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by riba2233 » Jul 02 2015 6:52am

bandaro wrote:Personally, the quantity of battery is easy: As much battery as you are willing to carry - speaking weight-wise.

The quality of the packs, lifespan, ease of use etc are determined by the dollars you have relative to skills/energy. For me, it's worth saving the 200 bucks and getting HK lipo over the space cells, I have the skills/passion/time to make my own just how I want, and that is to a far higher level than most go, talking rewiring loose cells... I may go 26650 for my next when lipo die, shall evaluate then.

Why? 18650 are superior.

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Re: Evolve Carbon AT with 50km+ range

Post by longhairedboy » Jul 02 2015 12:04pm

riba2233 wrote:
longhairedboy wrote:
riba2233 wrote:Please don't look in such places for 18650 cells and then compare cells.

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-si ... 0-25r.html

You really need to know where to look.
I live in the US and wherever possible I will order parts from vendors in the US.

Good luck with that! But not everyone likes to waste his money... Show me one US supplier that has prices near as low as nkon... I haven't found such by now.
their ru site doesn't charge VAT apparently.

from https://ru.nkon.nl/ without the VAT shipped to the US, 60 of those Samsung INR18650-25Rs would be US $264.68

From that same site, 30 of the the LG 18650HE2s 2500mAh cells add up to about US $117.25, and 60 puts us at about US $222.30.

So yes, this is probably a case where I would override my general inclination to support american businesses as i am certainly not a fan of wasting money. Also, unless i priced the wrong 18650 cell, it looks like the ones in the SPACE cell actually cost less, but its definitely within a reasonable enough margin to go either way depending on your own specs.

I only have about 22" between my trucks though because of my double kick deck. If i was going to buy a crate of these cells i'd also be looking for a new deck with the front truck all the way forward and a snubbier kick tail or possibly no kick tail at all to maximize the space available while still keeping the size of the overall board within reason.

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