Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Im a spoiled evolve carbon AT rider, everything is fast, solid, smooth and soft, carving is crazy grippy, you can just ride over everything really (for example small children!). the downside: I burn a set of tires (about 40eur) within 2-3 weeks and on REALLY nice pavement, carving feels just a little more awesome with oldschool skateboard wheels.

So I kept reading and reading on ES and man, I REALLY like to fiddle with things ... although the considerable costs kept me at bay for a while, I eventually gave in and started to look at my very own DIY build. :D

wanted to share some impressions of the board im about to build up. I really like topmount boards, they have this compact beautiful look on them - but I also knew that if i ever wanted to drive with regular skateboard wheels, it had to be REALLY large soft wheels with shock pads and everything. Used to have the street kit on my evolve and the carbon with the 80mm kegels just really doesnt work on the pavement around my town - its rattling and the grip is bad.
anyway, topmount & large wheels ... those two things dont really go along too well. on top of that, the silly caliber trucks shorten the wheelbase by about 1inch compared to most other trucks, so that doesnt really help with wheelbite either!!

spend the last few days trying to wrap my head around how to make it work without looking absolutely ridiculous ... naturally I went for a downhill board. the stiff flex prevents stress on your components and at the same time its very stable at high speeds. had my eyes on the landyachtz top speed 36" for a while now because not only does it look beautiful and locks you in well for higher speeds, but it also has a soft w-concave that results in a near flat 13cm wide patch in the middle (13cm = 2x 6.5cm = 2x 18650 cells :wink: ).

the board arrived today, ordered black caliber II 44° trucks as well as some shock pads, including a 6°angled shock pad riser to turn the 44° into 50° calibers if I feel like it. the wheels were abec11 flywheels, 90mm diameter, softest compound 75A. Put everything together with 1/2" risers and omg, wheelbite heaven, no way to run this kind of setup without a deathwish. I felt a little gloomy cause I was betting on the 1/2" risers, but not even another added 1/4" riser helped ... and of course it looked ridiculous already, so high above the ground! started looking for other boards that have more clearance, but in the end 90mm is really quite something - most boards are aiming at 70-76mm wheels - cant just stock it up to 90mm and expect it to work I guess.

so I finally went into the workshop and added 2 more possible mounting options per truck - basically what I did is bring the trucks closer to nose and tail = increasing wheelbase. I ended up shifting each truck by about 3.4cm, to counteract the loss in maneuverability I used the angled shock pad to bring the 44° angle to 50° (which actually also increases wheelbase a little and also gives a little more clearance truck<->deck). what I ended up with is a fairly beautiful looking topmount board, thats not ridiculously high above the ground despite 90mm monster truck wheels. :D


Image
2 more mounting options, each shifted by about 1.7cm. I tried to make it look like a stock solution - some of the boards come with more mounting options - think I succeeded.


Image
6° angled shock pad which is nearly 1/2" at the thickest part - added another 1/8" shock pad and then mounted the caliber II 44° truck. hoping for the smoothest ride with that kind of rubber between my feet and the ground. 90mm 75A wheels and over one cm of rubber shock pads! ;)


Image
It ended up looking quite harmonious imo - as harmonious as you can look with 90mm wheels really. :P


With this kind of riding height to work with, I can really point the motors far upwards, bringing them close to the deck and giving me a lot of ground clearance to maybe even drive down a sidewalk like I do on my carbon AT. The only available truck mount that allows 360° customisation is the http://diyelectricskateboard.com torqueboard motor mount, that has been used by okp on his latest beautiful build - really a very solid and good looking mount judging by the pictures. optional black anodizing really helps with the "regular longboard disguise", since any crazy anodized colors will draw unnecessary attention of the police in germany (where riding such vehicles is prohibited unless they drive < 7kph :lol: )

so, going from there the rest of the setup kinda fixed itself, since I dont want to deal with more overseas shipment and customs formulars than necessary (think otherwise I probably wouldve tried VESCs as well):

* Landyachtz TopSpeed 36,5" with new mounting position (increased wheelbase by 6.8cm)
* Black Caliber II 44° (to match motor mount color) with Bolzen 6° angled rubber risers (calibers 44 + 6 = back to 50° & good shock dampening)
* Abec11 Flywheels 90mm 75A (softest compound)
* Abec Biltin Bearings (its just so convenient to have spacers and speed rings built into your bearing)
* Riptide WFB Pivots for the Calibers (love them)
* Riptide Krank 87A Barrels

* Dual black Torqueboard v1 Motor Mount w 15/36 gearing and 5MGT 275mm belt (9mm width)
* Enertion RSpecc KV190 dual engine with enertion 15T pulley
* Torque Dual 120A 12S ESCs
* 12S Ubec to fuel the dual ESCs
* Wiireceiver
* Nyko Kama Nunchuck (ordered in the US since it doesnt seem to be available in the EU)
* Battery: 10S4P for 12Ah x 36V = 432Wh (can use evolve charger), made of LG 18650 HG2 cells (up to 20A & 3000mAh per cell).


Thought a while about which cells to use, since I was afraid of the crazy outrunner power consumptions (mostly peak). After asking around and looking at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ge#p957283 I decided that the way I ride Ill probably end up using an average power consumption of 300-500ish Watt (pretty much matching my evolve AT with 350Watt avg) with a peak consumption of probably 1000-2000 watts (onloop & others). in a 10S setup (36V), I would need to drain up to 60A in peak moments and around 15A average drain, so I needed cells that can take a beating of up to 15A per cell. I asked around again and Riba pointed at different cells, among them the LG 18650 HG2, which seemed to be a nice blend of high drain (up to 20A) and high capacity (3000mAh). In a 10S4P setup, this battery can provide up to 4x20A = 80A x 36V = 2900Watt peak power and it really shouldnt have any problem with a constant average current of 15A/4cells = 3.75A/cell average drain. --> building of the 10S4P battery pack

These speccs bring the board up to a theoretical maximum of 48kph (190KV, 15/36 gearing, 90mm wheels) and a range of 40km+ (36V x 12Ah = 432Wh = 1 hour ride @ 432Watt which is about 40-50kph = 40-50km range ... pretty much a worst case scenario). The power consumption and range probably depends quite a bit on the impact of the soft 75A 90mm flywheel compound - might be consuming quite a little bit more power compared to 80A kegels for example. I expect a similar (but less pronounced) battery life impact as seen for example in the street vs all terrain option on the evolve boards.

The motor RPM at max speed is 6840rpm in the 10S setup, so quite a little bit short on vedders magic number http://vedder.se/2014/10/chosing-the-ri ... kateboard/
most likely the KV of the motor shouldve been chosen a little higher OR I should run with a 12S battery layout, bringing the motor to 8208rpm with a max speed of 58kph. For now Ill go with 10S to use the evolve charger, but maybe I change my mind some day and rewire the cells. 12S3P vs 10S4P = 4 cells difference only. :)

Will update this thread every now and then when all the parts arrive, which is probably in 2-3 weeks.

// Simon
Last edited by whitepony on Sep 11, 2015 9:18 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by okp » Aug 19, 2015 2:26 pm

subscribed ! your photos are really nice !

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by sl33py » Aug 19, 2015 3:42 pm

Looks great whitepony! I too like your pics, but maybe ease up on the blur tool? Distracting. I'd crop it closer if you want to avoid a busy background... (hope you don't mind photo critique).

The TopSpeed looks gorgeous - love symetrical decks. It sounds like you are going to love DIY'ing your new board! It's fiddly and AWESOME! If you spread it out, it's not all that expensive, but you can end up with "extras" over time.

As for the Caliber's - wheelbase or wheel width? If width, maybe look at a spacer to push the wheels out more? I got an inexpensive 10mm (8mm ID) CF tube from ebay for ~$10 and then cut some 5mm spacers to push my wheels out on my previous dual 5065 rear drive setup (with the Abec 97's). Stacked speedrings work too. I saw the SS 5mm spacers from ADS and figured i could build my own easily.
Not sure how Calibers shorten the wheelbase so maybe i'm missing something there?

As for adjustable angle motor mounts, likely moot now since you have the calibers, but ADS does have a Paris mount that does 360*. I tried a set and they were OK, not spectacular. Need a set screw to help keep them from rotating. I have Torque's DIYes mounts now for new deck, but haven't used them under power yet. Dual set screws and feels much more secure.

Great platform and if it's anything like your Evolve, i know it will be impressive. Subscribed!

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 19, 2015 4:23 pm

hm, well, i think its really expensive ... couldve easily bought an evolve carbon street for the money :P

board 150eur
calibers 60eur
crazy 90mm abecs 90eur
bearings 30eur
screws, riptide pivots, shock pads 20eur
also changed bushings to krank 87A barrels, but had them in my bushing treasure box

= 350eur for the board alone

my torqueboard bill:
dual motor mount
dual motors
dual ESC
ubec
wii receiver
on/off switch
some spare belts
shipping + customs
= 820eur

nyko kama nunchuck, didnt get it in EU, so i had to order overseas: 30eur

42x LG HG2 cells from nkon.nl: 220eur

= 1420eur = price of an evolve carbon street (not mentioning boosted dual+ cause the range simply disqualifies it here)


if i compare it to the evolve carbon:

+ better suited board for street tires
+ 90mm wheels
+ dual drive, a lot more torque
+ higher speed (max 47kph)
+ higher capacity battery, most likely a lot more throughput
+ a lot more compact
+ i can fiddle :D

- probably housing will be semi-professional, Ill try laminating fiber epoxyd like okp
- louder
- semi-awesome nunchuck controller (but looking forward to the extra button use like "hold speed")


and about the calibers: they reduce wheelbase and by quite a lot which most often means you get wheelbite issues faster with these trucks! check out https://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/ ... -know.html
Last edited by whitepony on Aug 20, 2015 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by psychotiller » Aug 19, 2015 5:11 pm

sl33py wrote: As for adjustable angle motor mounts, likely moot now since you have the calibers, but ADS does have a Paris mount that does 360*. I tried a set and they were OK, not spectacular. Need a set screw to help keep them from rotating. I have Torque's DIYes mounts now for new deck, but haven't used them under power yet. Dual set screws and feels much more secure.
Great platform and if it's anything like your Evolve, i know it will be impressive. Subscribed!
I have a few sets left of adjustable angle motor mounts for caliber trucks and they're solid. $90 per mount
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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by Poweralti » Aug 19, 2015 10:36 pm

Jejeje

Very good a U-2015 fire!!!

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by sl33py » Aug 20, 2015 1:12 am

whitepony wrote:hm, well, i think its really expensive ... couldve easily bought an evolve carbon street for the money :P
Meh - but now you can fix/replace anything that goes wrong and you get to have the fun building it!!
whitepony wrote: and about the calibers: they reduce wheelbase and by quite a lot which most often means you get wheelbite issues faster with these trucks! check out https://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/ ... -know.html
Cool, love silverfish. I'll check that out. I never noticed, but tend not to run super loose unless on monster wheel capable decks.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualDrive

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Aug 20, 2015 1:31 am

looks awesome with the big wheels on the ends. functionality is pretty

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 20, 2015 7:01 am

ill keep updating the initial post to keep things together like I did on the evolve carbon AT 50km+ thread :wink:

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by chaka » Aug 20, 2015 8:07 am

Really nice setup! Don't worry too much about the height. I lot of fast riders run crazy thick risers, just shift your weight forward if the rear end starts fishing on you.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 21, 2015 9:14 am

think a deck that is too high looks a bit stupid, especially since you need risers to get the clearance for the giant tires that rise up your deck even more - think ive found a really sweet height for me though. testrode the "naked" board for 2 nights now, its the smoothest board I ever had so far. feels a little bit like riding a battleship though - once in motion it cannot be stopped! :D

also, batteries arrived today - may the spotwelding gods be with me. torqueboards, we gotta talk about priority mail :mrgreen:

Image

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 21, 2015 2:55 pm

ahhh, this time I was able to skip all the "hmm, how do I do this?" moments, which cost me a lot of time on my first evolve carbon 10S6P battery and it went a lot quicker, from unboxing the batteries until "done" in 4hours total. yes, its a smaller battery too, but I really got some sort of routine by now! :)

This time only 4P:
Image

I knew that there might be HUGE currents now with the double outrunner combo, so I didnt trust the Nickel-Band of 0.15mm thickness anymore (its supposed to work up to 10A only and the battery can endure a constant 80A drain with much higher peak drain ). So this time, all the connections among the 4P-packs were "reinforced". Started with applying some solder dots at points between cells and only on nickel band that would connect 4P packs. Remember: you dont want much heat transfer into the cells, so dont really do unnecessary soldering work on or close to the cells.
Image

Spot welding the band that connects 2 4P packs in series:
Image

Soldered 2x copper solder wick now for a total of 5mm^2 copper to allow large flows with as little resistance as possible for the outer connections of the 4P packs. I got a strong soldering iron that makes such soldering a thing of max 1sec, so there isnt much heat transferring into the cells. Please use a strong soldering iron with a medium large tip. if the tip is too small, you wont get heat into the soldering dot quick enough and it will take ages!
Image

The rest by the books of my first battery ( https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 35&t=70435 ). Adding middle connections, note that I didnt reinforce these connections with stranded copper wires - the 4x nickel band is good for about 40A and its only very short connections, so I felt fairly safe to leave it like that for the middle connections:
Image

Adding balancing wires between each of the 4P packs - 11 in total:
Image

Everything always stabilized with wide clear tape. Here we can see the middle of the battery that is going to be folded:
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And the outside with the solder wick:
Image

Folding the pack like a butterfly:
Image

Connecting the 5mm^2 main power cables to the double solder wick on the first and last 4P pack, then 195mm heat shrink tube aaand we are done already :D
Image
Last edited by whitepony on Dec 20, 2015 6:01 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by Vulthor » Aug 21, 2015 3:35 pm

Wow, really impressive, fingers cross for you.
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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by Poweralti » Aug 22, 2015 11:49 am

Made in Germany

Good quality!!!

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by kimboviper » Aug 23, 2015 3:01 pm

Nice dude!

You are really good at making packs. You should make some and sell them to DIY guys...

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by torqueboards » Aug 23, 2015 5:02 pm

Wow, that pack is amazing! I've thought of making packs like these even if it was just unbalanced and not connected to a BMS board.
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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by psychotiller » Aug 23, 2015 6:51 pm

Amazing!
Do you have a picture of the bms you are using?
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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 24, 2015 12:22 am

ill go without a bms for now because drift has proven to be absolutely negligible in my last pack. ill just check every now and then and if i find a drift soon i can always still add a bms, afterall the balancercables are there! :)

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by onloop » Aug 24, 2015 1:12 am

On a slightly "off topic" topic... what brand of ROBO vacuum is that? and is it any good for the dog hair?

i have two hairy mutts! and would love a robot to help around the house.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 24, 2015 1:40 am

sharp eye for details mister :D

its a roomba 870, pretty smart guy, descendent of the pet series with 2 rotating cylinders that miraculously dont get all messed up with hair. its good overall, very thorough, not sure for thick carpet though. check your apartment about the magic height 9cm. i had furnitures where the roomba just managed to get under to ultimately get stuck - had to make a few changes there. love how he cleans under beds and everything. its not 100% maintenance free though, sometimes i have to clean the single front wheel which tends to grab hair (gf and me got long hair too, so thats not helping). its the only thing of maintenance i have to do besides emptying the dust bin.

typing with phone, so many mistakes, screw this :D

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by onloop » Aug 24, 2015 1:43 am

cool, ill check it out... i am starting to research what to buy now.... SO MUCH DOG hair coming out lately!

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by whitepony » Aug 29, 2015 9:18 am

few parts arrived from australia (enertion motors) and the US (Nyko Kama Wii controller), amazed how fast the postal services are nowadays - didnt wait longer than a week.

the motors look really great and I really like that nyko kama wii controller, fits my hand very well. looking forward to test it with the Wiireceiver, im especially curious about the "hold current speed" functionality, since Im most often just cruising at one speed - much easier to press a button for that instead of keeping a lever in position! :)

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by dnmun » Aug 29, 2015 11:47 am

a waste of solder wick. there is no current in parallel connections of the nickel strap. there is no need to connect them in parallel first. all of the current flows in a serial direction. it does not flow in a parallel direction so none of that is needed. i really cannot understand why people do not see how electricity flows from positive to negative and does not flow from positive to positive.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by chaka » Aug 29, 2015 12:05 pm

dnmun wrote:a waste of solder wick. there is no current in parallel connections of the nickel strap. there is no need to connect them in parallel first. all of the current flows in a serial direction. it does not flow in a parallel direction so none of that is needed. i really cannot understand why people do not see how electricity flows from positive to negative and does not flow from positive to positive.
Ahh dnmun you are always such a ray of sunshine you old bastard. :D If you look closely you will see he is using the copper strand to carry the serial connection.

I want to add that in the "real world" connecting the cells in parallel first makes for a much more stable pack with lower voltage sag. This may not make sense on paper but real world testing has shown this to be true. My only concern with building a pack like this is if on cell shorts it will take the whole pack with it if the internal fuse fails. Fuse wire connections eliminate this risk.
Last edited by chaka on Aug 29, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Landyachtz TopSpeed 90mm 10S4P DualRearDrive

Post by dnmun » Aug 29, 2015 12:11 pm

but there is no need to use solder wick. bare copper wire, called bus wire would work better and be 1/10 of the cost.

i am sorry you feel it is a 'downer' to try to inform people about the laws of physics and electrical conduction.

everyone feels most comfortable doing what someone else has done. fanboys feel they are doing the right thing if they follow the previous guys technique. that is more important to them than understanding the laws of physics.

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