New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Boosted)

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New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Boosted)

Post by sl33py » Oct 04 2015 1:29pm

So OKP's Vanguard build with cables on top got me thinking of doing the same on my GF's Vanguard 41 (flex 1 - it's mine she's permanently borrowed).

BUT i really don't want to mess it up. SO, i got the Omen Sugar deck i wanted to build for guests to ride with us, and i like kick tails for maneuverability. I like the bottom graphic (nothing fancy), so decided i'd practice routing the power on top of the board to see how it goes.

I wanted to also practice laying down some GF. (before i dive into the e-Chief and CF) I bought two rolls of tinted GF (like texalium) specifically to practice with. I also have a quart of Polyester Resin and MEKP. I have a respirator, but holy crap that stuff stinks up the garage!

Here we go:
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By hand - not perfectly straight, but the raised edge prevented a flat surface to use the guides. I marked a centerline on the bolts to follow.

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surprisingly enough 5/8 flat tinned copper wire fits perfectly in 5/8 router channel! :roll:

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Router channels done! Not perfect, but close enough for me!

I grabbed some 4.5-5mm connectors and they looked perfect to be the pass-through from the top to the bottom of the deck (thanks LHB for the inspiration). Outside dimensions were 6.5mm so the closest drill bit i could find was my 1/4 (need to get a metric set, but what i had) which measured 6.4. So a bit of work to get them to fit.
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The tinned wire i got isn't insulated... So i was thinking either heat shrink tubing (likely not stay flat when shrinks) or plasti-dip. Had a can of plasti-dip already in the garage (ridiculously handy stuff). So i know wood is an insulator already but wanted to make sure so sprayed the channels with a good 3-4 thin coats to get a nice layer of insulation, then laid the flat wire in the channels and sprayed over them to saturate and adhere into the channel. In hindsight i would do several "dots" of hot glue to keep it stuck down next time then spray it. I tried thin strips of painters tape and alternated pulling them up and re-spraying. Time consuming and didn't do a great job holding the flat wire down. I already planned to GF over it, but if i were just doing grip tape once insulated it would likely pull up if you re-gripped the deck.
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Wires insulated and ready to play with GF!
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Respirator on, i didn't even notice the horrible smell (i knew it was bad, but jeez) until later when went back into garage that evening.

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Issue - vacuum is so strong it pulled up the fabric on the tail. I killed the vacuum and moved the fabric, but it's a little messed up there after.
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I realize now that was in large part due to the placement of my vacuum line and fitting. I would center mount it next time. I like the even "dots" of the resin being pulled into the breather fabric!

First layer isn't exactly where i want it, so planned on a second layer when i saw results. Not super disappointed, but not quite pleased with results either. I tried just the release film that's perforated and the finish shows a lot of texture i don't really like. I also don't think i added enough MEKP for my cool temperature (about 8 drops per oz (Silmar 249a Resin) which is 1%).

Other lessons learned - i'd trim the fabric once laid instead of letting it bunch up. I also changed to using the vacuum table i built instead of sandwiching layers of membrane w/ butyl tape to seal the two (for second layer of GF).

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Finish is rough and glossy - rough from the perforations, glossy from the film. I would do a layer of release *Fabric* on top of the perf'd film next time if i wanted a glossier but still smooth finish. Tacky to the touch (loooong cure time w/ 1% MEKP - i went to 1.5% for second layer).
Also - the connectors do stick up slightly and dimple the surface. I will recess them more next time. Once gripped i don't think it'll be too noticeable.

So Round Two!:
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Safety first!
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Using the table i built works great. I like the down force only this way for the edges, especially after trimming the GF back a bit all the way around so less excess to bunch up.
I plugged my Hot wire hole on the left side/end w/ a small ball of butyl tape. worked great. I laid down some painters tape to protect the plastic/smooth finish of the table as some butyl tape did pull it up when i did a practice run on some vacuum formed kydex.

This is where i'm at now. It sat overnight but was really cool (50's) so i'm going to pull it off the table but leave it in the fabric/membrane and set in the sun this afternoon (low 70's) to let it warm up and finish for a couple hours before i pull the films off.

I went with just the release fabric, so it should have a more uniform matte texture this time. Just practicing to see which i like more. We shall see soon!

Updates to follow.

I know this was pic heavy, i hope it helps anyone else looking to do similar themselves! Ask questions and i'm happy to let you know anything i can to help!

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by chaka » Oct 04 2015 1:41pm

Nice work! Next time use epoxy when laying glass on wood. Polyester resin is awful to work with and it doesn't bond well to anything other than wet resin.

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by okp » Oct 04 2015 1:45pm

yeah, epoxy all the way :D

for such task, no need to go with the vacuum pump

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by whitepony » Oct 04 2015 2:32pm

omen e-chief in the making and already on your next built? :mrgreen:

didnt know you could get glas fibers in such fancy colors :o

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by Vulthor » Oct 04 2015 3:01pm

Your guests will be happy with that ;)
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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by sl33py » Oct 04 2015 3:44pm

chaka wrote:Nice work! Next time use epoxy when laying glass on wood. Polyester resin is awful to work with and it doesn't bond well to anything other than wet resin.
Thanks chaka - i had it kicking around and figure it will work. I have two different epoxies i'm trying to save for my e-chief project. Some fiberglast and westcoast systems.

This is really a test run and i'll use epoxy next time. With grip tape on top of it i don't think it will have any issue. I hope!

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by sl33py » Oct 04 2015 3:45pm

okp wrote:yeah, epoxy all the way :D

for such task, no need to go with the vacuum pump
i had it and really wanted to test it before i use it with CF. Figuring out what works well and what doesn't.

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by okp » Oct 04 2015 4:01pm

your vacuum stuff looks really good, how expensive is it ?

congrats for the DIY stuff :D

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by sl33py » Oct 04 2015 5:04pm

whitepony wrote:omen e-chief in the making and already on your next built? :mrgreen:

didnt know you could get glas fibers in such fancy colors :o
e-chief is getting cnc routered out - waiting for it to be done (it's delayed).
So trying to practice with the setup and figure out what i'm doing... before i dive into doing it on the e-Chief.

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by Vulthor » Oct 04 2015 10:19pm

"a la boosted" so cute :D
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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by sl33py » Oct 06 2015 7:35pm

OKP - i've been collecting parts for vacuum forming kydex for a while.

I got most of my supplies from Fibreglast. Not the cheapest for sure, but good quality. Also got a lot of random bits from Amazon (butyl tape, etc.).

Film/bag - Stetchlon 800
Release Film - Low Temp Perfed Release Film.
Breather Fabric - 4oz Breather/Bleeder Fabric.
Sealant Tape - Gray Sealant Tape: (½" wide; 1⁄8" thick; 25 feet). (you can also try cheaper "butyl" tape)

I also got some release *Fabric* to compare with the film. Film is supposed to be shiny but perfed may pull too much epoxy out. The fabric gives a matte texture and less epoxy is lost. This is why i wanted to try both.
Not exactly what i got - but here's the Fibreglast Release Film ( i got the West System 879 Release Fabric instead).

Two options - a vacuum pump (1 or 2 stage). 1 stage is loud, 2 stage is quiet and faster and more expensive.
Robinair or similar are well known in the AC/Automotive trades.

The most expensive part is the pump. They are usually either 1 or 2 stage. 2 stage is quieter, faster, and more expensive. I went with the 5CFM Robbinair 2 stage ~$150-175 if you hunt and are patient. A cheap 3-5 CFM single stage can be $80-120. If you are handy and can find a refrigerator pump you can convert them to a vacuum pump as well. you can also convert a regular air compressor using the inlet vs the outlet. Some good instructables and DIY videos on youtube.

Last - and to say it again. Polyester resin SUCKS! What a PITA. Still curing and a total mess to cut until it's fully cured. I got nice and itchy with the little fibers. I will need to clean up edges again, likely also sand and re-paint the wood i nicked several times cutting. Grr. I will cut the GF/CF closer to the deck shape next time and let it wrap over cleanly (no cut) or leave it long with some sort of support so it doesn't roll over and stick to the deck. Either way i'm using epoxy next time regardless of extra $ for the resin.

It definitely only likes to stick to itself as you mentioned/warned. I'm going to skim coat it to get it nice and glossy (really really matte w/ just the release fabric). I'll use the extra resin to roll over the edge and clean it up at the same time. Still won't look stellar, but this is why i was practicing on this board, not the e-chief!!

Here's the peel after sitting out:
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It's not horrible, but the edges are a PITA. Hopefully get easier when fully cured. Like i said - a lot of sanding, touch up paint, and cleanup to make it look decent i'd guess. All user error.

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by chaka » Oct 06 2015 8:00pm

I use aeromarine products for glass work. http://aeromarineproducts.com/ west systems is nice but way overpriced.

Next time be sure to sand off all the paint, it needs to be applied to bare wood to get a good bond and the only time I bag a layup is if I need to mold a shape into it too. You will have a much easier time if you simply lay it up with a squeegee/credit card, let it setup a little and apply more epoxy to fill the weave i.e. hot coating.

Traditionally you would cut the glass flush with the edge instead of overlapping. You do this before the epoxy fully sets, while it is still in the "green" stage.

Welcome to the wonderful world of fiberglass! Best to take a cold shower after sanding the stuff, a warm shower will just drive those little fibers deeper :twisted:

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by sl33py » Oct 07 2015 1:32am

chaka wrote:I use aeromarine products for glass work. http://aeromarineproducts.com/ west systems is nice but way overpriced.

Next time be sure to sand off all the paint, it needs to be applied to bare wood to get a good bond and the only time I bag a layup is if I need to mold a shape into it too. You will have a much easier time if you simply lay it up with a squeegee/credit card, let it setup a little and apply more epoxy to fill the weave i.e. hot coating.

Traditionally you would cut the glass flush with the edge instead of overlapping. You do this before the epoxy fully sets, while it is still in the "green" stage.

Welcome to the wonderful world of fiberglass! Best to take a cold shower after sanding the stuff, a warm shower will just drive those little fibers deeper :twisted:
thanks Chaka! I will check out aeromarine as the westcoast stuff is spendy (but supposed to be excellent).

Sand paint to bare wood - gotcha. Did give it a good rub down with denatured alcohol before laying it down, but will do this on next time.

cutting flush with the edge - definitely. This sucks trying to clean it up afterwards... good lesson learned.

I did take a cool shower as i heard it was bad to do hot. not too bad. I didn't get too covered.

Thanks!

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RESURRECTION TIME!

Post by sl33py » Jul 15 2016 3:17am

also posted on esk8. Time to get this board going again:
Alrighty... resurrecting an old project that was sitting on the bench frustrating me.
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(this is how it looked minus the breather fabric - collecting dust on my bench in garage)

Here's the start, channels, and wires installed.
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(lesson learned here - i would now scuff/sand the paint to give it a bit extra grip, and use epoxy instead of poly)

Really like the result *except for the lumps at the 90* connectors...

So now we are pretty much caught up to today. I didn't feel like the FG/GF was really sticking... and it peeled off easily with just my hands...(that's not good).

So i re-sanded the top and sides, then used some epoxy this time with the last piece/section of this blue GF. I did not use the vacuum pump, merely wanted to get this functional and usable. I have almost everything to have a 3rd deck for guests - so time to get it done!

I'm cutting some corners and did not pull the 90* wires to fix the lumps. Good enough.

here's the partially finished results:
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Want to repaint the edges black, and the bottom needs some cleanup, and re-drill the holes as they are nicely clogged with epoxy now. Some grip and ready for electronics next. I might leave a stripe of the blue bare to give it some color on top besides grip.

Going to go a single motor setup - trying to pick which.

Tacon Bigfoot 160 - 245kv
SK3 6374 192kv
SK3 6374 149kv

Single older VESC, BLDC @6/8s or possibly as high as 10s.

I have one of psychotiller's mounts i might try, or get another Enertion or DIYes.

Will update more when i get the next pieces figured out and installed.

Thanks for reading and any questions/comments.

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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by torqueboards » Jul 15 2016 3:52pm

Nice... everyone stepping up their game :)
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Re: New! Omen e-Sugar. Flat Power cables on top (a la Booste

Post by whitepony » Jul 16 2016 2:25pm

oh cool, I have already replied in this thread ages ago. :D

I now stumbled over your earlier pictures of the vacuum table and the board set up right ontop of it again - thats really great for bending the fabric around the edges BUT: I wanted to do a very similar thing with my heavily routed jet spud build, started evacuating and I could watch the board getting bent more and more when the vacuum picked up (was getting bent against the concave, so basically it was flattened, not bent). ran over to the pump fast, stopped it and opened the valve ... think I was just seconds away from a cracked board!!! :oops:

I went back to a vacuum bag where youll never have a problem like that. :)

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