250w hub motor scooter mod log

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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ApacheXMD » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:29 am

Ouch that sucks man.

If you're feeling brave, you can try to SLOW charge the bad cells to bring them back up to voltage.
Here's an article about it:

http://www.electricrcaircraftguy.com/20 ... LiPos.html

But IMHO, it's not worth the risk of setting your house on fire.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ElectricGod » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:30 pm

ApacheXMD wrote:Ouch that sucks man.

If you're feeling brave, you can try to SLOW charge the bad cells to bring them back up to voltage.
Here's an article about it:

http://www.electricrcaircraftguy.com/20 ... LiPos.html

But IMHO, it's not worth the risk of setting your house on fire.


Overly discharging cells causes damage to them, but I have recharged cells in this state and continue to use them today. That article is pretty much what I would do. I wouldn't charge LIPOs like that on my living room carpet, but at my bench on top of a piece of metal or in the garage on something that won't burn, so I'm not concerned about burning LIPOs. Having said that...it's a precaution...as along as the battery doesn't get overly hot, it wont burst into flames. I recommend that you try to restore your LIPOs. Or you can give them to me. I'll pay for shipping. I know I can get them back to a good state again.

When I've done this I did it a little differently, but the result is the same and his method is probably better than mine since R/C chargers can control their current output. I used a couple of NiMh AA cells in parallel with the LIPO cell to push current into the LIPO. The AA batteries can't deliver a lot of current so the result is the same.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:43 pm

Thanks for the article apache, very interesting.

I'm still undecided on what I'm going to do. I'd like to revive my lipos but I don't want to be worrying about them if I do. Two controllers on on that 10c pack is pretty rough when I get on the throttle (all the time). I'm really considering just getting a new pack, probably something with a BMS. I think 20c is probably the minimum discharge rate this scooter needs. I still haven't seen full potential out of this thing because I never turned the current limiting up on the controllers. I think it would be cool to also bump the voltage up a bit too and get a few more mph out of it. These are all just ideas, I haven't really looked into what I'm going to do, but it sucks not having my scooter. I'm not sure what the current shipping laws are for lithium, but maybe I'll just sell these packs cheap, I also have a 36v 8.8ah pack that the scooter came with to sell.

EG PM if you're interested, maybe we can work something out.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ElectricGod » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:59 am

shortcircuit911 wrote:Thanks for the article apache, very interesting.

I'm still undecided on what I'm going to do. I'd like to revive my lipos but I don't want to be worrying about them if I do. Two controllers on on that 10c pack is pretty rough when I get on the throttle (all the time). I'm really considering just getting a new pack, probably something with a BMS. I think 20c is probably the minimum discharge rate this scooter needs. I still haven't seen full potential out of this thing because I never turned the current limiting up on the controllers. I think it would be cool to also bump the voltage up a bit too and get a few more mph out of it. These are all just ideas, I haven't really looked into what I'm going to do, but it sucks not having my scooter. I'm not sure what the current shipping laws are for lithium, but maybe I'll just sell these packs cheap, I also have a 36v 8.8ah pack that the scooter came with to sell.

EG PM if you're interested, maybe we can work something out.


If you do attempt to recover your LIPOs they are only a possible problem while you are trying to recover them. Once you have them back to their normal operating voltage range, they will work like they did before. They won't suddenly burst into flames when you charge them. Next time get LIPOs with higher C rates. Those 10C cells were probably drooping pretty badly when you were accelerating. Next time go for 35C packs.

If you go with a BMS, I have 3 of these. They are 12S at 30 amps. I was using them with my old LIPO packs, but now they are 20S so they are not getting used anymore. You don't have to use them for all 12 cells either. The minimum is 6 cells.

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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ElectricGod » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:32 pm

Cotemar wrote:Maybe you can get some ideas from this dual wheel drive scooter.
.
http://www.passiongadgets.com/preorder- ... otors.html


$2500...damn...that's a little smaller than my $600 scooter. It's a cleaner build for sure and made out of aluminum. Mine is all steel so it weights a lot more. The swing arm suspension is interesting. Of course with no shocks they can't be adjusted or stiffened if needed.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:51 am

ya $2,500 is a bit steep. It looks pretty cool though. I'm curious to see how much they embellished the specs.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ApacheXMD » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:34 pm

Hey got a question for you. When you wired up your throttle to both controllers, did you take the positive and ground from one controller to the throttle, and then have the signal wire split to both controllers?
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:45 am

No I made a y harness for the 3 wires. There's a pic of it on page 2 of this thread.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ApacheXMD » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:31 pm

Any update to your scooter? What did you end up doing for the batteries?
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:58 am

So this scooter has been dead for the past 9 months while I was focused on other things (work), but now I'm back at it! Over the past few weeks I've been working on it little by little to get this thing back on the road and better than ever. The main issue with the last pack (other than being cheap 10c cells) was that I had no BMS watching the cells. So I did a little trading with Electric God and ended up with a badass variable voltage charger, and a 20s BMS.

The new plan is to run 18s lipos (10ah) instead of the measly 12s I was running before. For X-mas I got some cash, so I pulled the trigger on (6) turnigy 6s 5ah 20c lipos from hobbyking ($38 a piece at the time :P ). The batteries have since arrived and I've begun making all of the series and parallel connectors necessary for the pack. I have also had to move the controllers to the outside of the scooter (yeah I know) to make room for the BMS and lipos. I made up some quick mounting brackets for the controllers and got them mounted up. I've also made the mounting brackets for the forks because I'm adding front disc brakes to this death trap.

I'm probably going to charge the pack up this week and take it for a spin when it stops raining here in the bay. I'll have some more pics up this week as well, below are a few I've taken over the past few weeks. I'm hoping to break into the 30's with ridiculous acceleration, we'll see how it goes.
Attachments
20170101_114016.jpg
Most of the parts
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Dry fit of the packs and BMS
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welded the controller mounts to the rear fender
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They look pretty badass sitting right next to each other.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:26 am

Been slowly working on this project again, I'm hoping to get it done sometime in April. I worked on getting the front brakes mocked up this weekend. I just need to cut the mounting tabs a bit then weld them up, should have a lot more stopping power than it did. I also have an 18s BMS coming from ElectricGod coming soon so I'll be able to take it for a spin soon. More progress pics to come.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby Username1 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:22 am

Cool project, same idea I want to accomplish with the 2 hub motors. Those controllers are monsterous in size though, I bet if someone custom built a small single controller the size could come WAY down.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:06 am

Thanks man. Yeah they're pretty big, but the look of them on the back fender has really grown on me, let's people know you're not fu***n' around lol. Dual hubs is definitely the way to go, the sound they make when accelerating is worth it alone.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:26 pm

Finally got some time to weld the caliper tabs onto the forks. I didn't have much time so I just MIG welded them on, even though I prefer TIG. Either way the welds are very strong and should have no issues bringing me to a stop. I had to make a little spacer on my lathe to get the caliper to sit just right with the least amount of rubbing. All that's left is to get a brake cable to complete the brakes. I'm also running a dual cable lever so both brakes will be engaged with one lever. I hope to have the BMS this week so I can finish it up and finally go for a test ride at 75v! I'll post more pics of progress soon.
Attachments
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Put some beefy MIG welds on there.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:28 pm

So I received my BMS from ElectricGod last night and got it wrapped in kapton tape to avoid anything getting shorted out. After that I loosely installed it in the scooter so that I could charge the pack up for the first time since buying them in december. It was pretty simple to hook up and I was charging in minutes. Before the BMS arrived I set the output voltage of the charger to 73.8v so all I had to do was plug it in when the BMS arrived. The pack was charging at 4-5 amps which is plenty for me. I shut it down before the pack was charged to go to bed, it's topping off now.

I still need to get a brake cable for the front which will probably happen tomorrow. I also noticed that all the wiring takes up quite a bit of room so I will probably end up welding extensions to the battery box again to get an additional 1/2"-3/4" of clearance. In the meantime I'll just make some spacers on the lathe to prop the deck up above the wiring and BMS. I hope to get all this done this weekend and go for the maiden at 18s, should be epic!
Attachments
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went overboard with the kapton tape
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charging up with the BMS and new charger
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:29 am

So I made quite a bit of progress this weekend and was actually able to go for a short ride.There is still some more work to be done to the frame so that I can ditch the spacers I made and have the deck sit flat in the frame.

What got done: I picked up a brake cable from the bike shop and cut it to length. The front brakes have added a significant amount of braking power to the scooter, it stops on a dime! I'm using a dual cable lever to pull both the front and rear brake cables so it saves some weight, keeps my right hand on the throttle at all times, and leaves less clutter on the handlebars. I also picked up 304 stainless bolts for the rotors so I shouldn't have to worry about them shearing. I have also been able to successfully charge my scooter with the BMS and charger setup I received from ElectricGod. One my test ride I was having issues with the anderson connectors on my phase wires making poor contact/coming loose. Last night I swapped all the phase wires out for 5.5mm bullet connectors per ElectricGod's suggestion and it worked like a charm, problem solved. I've also started rerouting wires and shortening others to clean up the battery box a bit, but I'm going to need a bit more room, hence the battery box mod still to come (can you say 10 lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag).

Test Ride results: According to my GPS app I went for about a 3.5 mile ride with a top speed of 31.29 MPH (might be able to get another mph or two out of it as the tires were low on air and the brake pads are rubbing slightly). The acceleration on this thing is incredible! On my test ride I kept loosing one motor because of the phase wire issues I had, but when I got that fixed and had consistent performance out of both motors, it is a huge difference between 1 and 2 motors working. When I smash the throttle the front end gets very light and the front wheel starts peeling out and you feel the scooter pull all the way to top speed. I also noticed that this thing is extremely efficient. Going up hill at full throttle, the amp meter never went above 21A, and on a flat road at full throttle it only pulls about 8 amps. The max wattage I saw the meter display was around 1,300W, its amazing how efficient this scooter is. I really need to get a bigger amp meter in the future because it can be hard to see on a bumpy road and can take your eyes off the road for a long time.

I just wanted to take a minute to tell everyone that ElectricGod is a bad MoFo. He's really made a nice charger for me and also sourced and modified a BMS with 4110s so it will now output 160A. He's provided countless tips and pointers that have really helped with the project thus far, and I just wanted to make a note of that.

More progress pics to come.
Attachments
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Front wheel all buttoned up with the new brakes
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Got the spacers added under the deck for some clearance
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:32 pm

Got some more work done last night, stayed up til 1 shortening and rerouting wiring. I also got the charger port mounted on the top of the deck for easy access. I'm still using the spacers I made to prop the deck up above the bit of wiring that sits just above the frame rails. I went to lowes today and bought some 3/4 strip steel to weld onto the frame so I can get rid of the spacers. I'm planning on doing that mod this week if I can get some time in on the welder after work. I'd also like to throw a few coats of plasti dip on the frame to make it look complete and stop the surface rust from accumulating.

I aired up the tires to 40 psi and adjusted the brakes a bit to reduce some of the rubbing I was hearing. After charging up the battery I went for a nice long ride around town. I'm happy to say that I have a new top speed, 35.6 MPH! Total ride was 7 miles and the average speed was 21. Before the mod i was hoping to break into the 30's, so 35 as a top speed makes me very happy. It was also a bit windy today, so maybe it is 36 or 37, I'll do some more testing on the same road when the wind is gone.

Going to test out the charger port on top of the deck for a while and see how I like it. I'm planning on making a new deck after all the metal work is done so I'm not too worried if I end up not liking it on top of the deck.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ElectricGod » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:13 pm

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the compliments. Back at you for modding my Currie forks. This does look pretty amazing. I like the charge port coming out of the deck. Does it have a cover to keep dirt out of it?

If you want to get the controller profile down, consider going with a 6 or 9 fet controller and then replace the fets with AOT290's. Also, the Phaserunners are a bit expensive, but they are really small. They are 6 fet controllers that use the AOT290. Look up the PHaserunner on ES. I think you can get them for less than $300 each. Grintech is a bit over priced. Honestly though, the controllers side by side and the same width as the deck looks just fine.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... unner.html

Since your deck is wood, consider adding a spacer to the bottom of it that raises it up a little. It looks good the way it is. I raised the deck twice on the blue scooter. The first time was enough for my original battery packs which needed a 1/8" clearance to fit. Later when I went to 20S, the packs were a tiny bit taller so I added a second spacer to the first one and raised it another 1/4". Then the whole thing seals to the frame with some weather strip. It works really well at keeping dirt water out of my battery box. The original spacer is pine and was painted when I made the deck. Since I wasn't going to paint the added spacer, I used some teak I had. It's weather proof so it won't ever rot. I like the looks of the bare wood on your deck, but that clear coat won't last very long. Grit will dig into it and get into the wood. Also, I bet it's a bit slick when it's wet. Consider covering the top of the deck with grip tape.

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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:33 am

Damn those are some expensive controllers. I'm pretty much at budget for this scooter, but those are definitely good candidates for future projects. I really like how compact they are, and modding them per your suggestion would make them killer. I kinda dig that look of both the controllers on my scooter, they get good air flow (not that they're working hard), and they're performing really well.

The grip tape is also another great idea, its worked well for me in the past on my brushless e300. I had something special planned for the new deck and the grip tape would cover it up. After i made the deck I coated it with "the good stuff" and its been doing a good job of protecting the wood. I like your idea of adding weather strip, I may just do that. I want to pain the scooter so it looks nice so I'm just going to weld the extensions on to the frame, the 3/4" strip will give me a bit of extra room for the wiring. I got the scooter stripped down to the wheels which I'll remove before welding. I'm going to stay a little late tomorrow to weld it up at work, then I'll start painting it.

The xlr does have a cover, its pretty sweet how it swivels out of the way when you open it. I'm liking the location of the charger port, its really convenient when charging it up and I don't feel its in my way when I'm riding. I'll post some pics of the welding and painting soon.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby ElectricGod » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:29 am

shortcircuit911 wrote:Damn those are some expensive controllers. I'm pretty much at budget for this scooter, but those are definitely good candidates for future projects. I really like how compact they are, and modding them per your suggestion would make them killer. I kinda dig that look of both the controllers on my scooter, they get good air flow (not that they're working hard), and they're performing really well.

The grip tape is also another great idea, its worked well for me in the past on my brushless e300. I had something special planned for the new deck and the grip tape would cover it up. After i made the deck I coated it with "the good stuff" and its been doing a good job of protecting the wood. I like your idea of adding weather strip, I may just do that. I want to pain the scooter so it looks nice so I'm just going to weld the extensions on to the frame, the 3/4" strip will give me a bit of extra room for the wiring. I got the scooter stripped down to the wheels which I'll remove before welding. I'm going to stay a little late tomorrow to weld it up at work, then I'll start painting it.

The xlr does have a cover, its pretty sweet how it swivels out of the way when you open it. I'm liking the location of the charger port, its really convenient when charging it up and I don't feel its in my way when I'm riding. I'll post some pics of the welding and painting soon.


You rode what? 2 Days and then you've torn it all apart. LOL!

I use that same XLR connector for my charging ports. On my blue scooter, I can charge up to 30 amps. It's amazing that these little connectors can handle that much current. Mine has been taking that much load for close to a year now.

I think your controllers look good where they are.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:27 pm

haha yup only rode about 12 miles then tore it down again lol. It's raining today and tomorrow so why not. This is the last major mod that needs to be done, the rest will be cleaning up more wiring and swapping out connectors.

Damn 30 amps through that little connector! I'm happy with the 5 amps I'm charging at lol.

More pics coming soon.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:48 am

I was able to get the battery box extensions welded on. It was pretty simple and straightforward as I've already done this once. After it was welded up I sanded the welds down flush so they wouldn't be visible when I painted them, which was the next step. I had a can of flat black plasti dip in the garage so I laid down 4 heavy coats on the forks and frame, so we'll see how it holds up. I'm going to let it cure all weekend because I'm going out of town so that should be plenty of time for it to set up. When I get back I'm going to get all the wiring and batteries back in, hopefully for the last time lol. I have some tool mat from my tool box that I'll use to keep the batteries from moving around in the battery box. There are also some new connectors I want to solder onto the hall sensor wires, so that'll probably happen then as well. I'm hoping to get this thing up and running by early next week, then I can start on the new deck.
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby shortcircuit911 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:30 am

Well I spent a few days getting the scooter back together and made some tweaks in the process. I ended up notching the back of the battery box to allow more room for the wiring to feed into the battery box. Reassembling the scooter was a bit of a struggle because I had to do it late at night when i was super tired, but I got it done. This thing is so much fun to ride in SF. I was flying by mopeds and cars on the street, got some baffled looks from people lol. I was riding the other day and got a blow out in the rear at about 20 mph, the rear end started washing out so I pulled over to asses the issue. Unfortunately these tires are tubeless and not easy to find locally. I was able to track some down on ebay and bought the sellers last set. I really hope they get here quick, unfortunately they're coming from china so we'll see. While waiting for the tires to come in I'm going to put the finishing touches the wiring and get the rim prepped so installation goes as smooth as possible. Also planning on starting the deck soon. I hate waiting for parts...
Attachments
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Notched the back of the battery box
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wires have way more room going into the battery box
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charging up
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Re: 250w hub motor scooter mod log

Postby mackyyy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:52 pm

awesome project... I love it.. Was wondering how is the temp of the hubmotor ?? I'm guessing super hot but it can handle it with no problems ? I'm surprise it can handle all the power you give it.
Just wondering cause mine gets hot after going up some hills, just a little concern about it.
mackyyy
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