Hub or not to Hub ?!

Hey folks,

I just gave a try to hub motors and compared it to a single drive system and share with you my feedback. I am running a 12S MaxAmp 150C, so the battery is able to deliver more than anything can be expected. I got a single hub from Carveon and I like to say that this is a masterpiece of art. Congrats Jerry for the job. I first tried 10S3P with the Hub... but well ... that's not interesting, getting up to speed is ... slow. So I moved to a 12S Lipo immediately!!!!

BLDC SINGLE DRIVE  RSPEC 6355 190kv 14/32T
12S - motor max 80 / motor regen -60 / batt max 60 / batt min regen -20 / startup boost to 0,050
- 518.7mah=> 3.65 km - 48.8V
- 985.7 mah => 5.84km - 47.7v
- 1538.7 man => 10.80 - 46.7v
=> charged cap : 158.6mAh

The ride is pleasant, punchy - of course you don't go hills, or at least small hills with speed. Brakes acts efficiently (of course not as well as a dual rear) nicely like an elastic feeling. I like that. Getting up too speed is quite fast. Sound in BLDC is not that loud. I definitely prefer dual rear but single on a short deck is really fun

Click to expand...

BLDC SINGLE HUB CARVEON v2 / 90mm

12S - motor max 80 / motor regen -60 / batt max 60 / batt min regen -20 / startup boost to 0,050
BLDC - Min ERPM Limit : 600 (instead of 900) / ERPM Limit 50 (instead of 150)

- 838,3mah => 6,43km - 47.8V
- moved startup boost to 0.060 
- 1976.2 mah => 15.73km - 46V
- charged cap : 111.4mah

The ride is average (but only when you get at speed)- which is were you start to have a little fun)... otherwise starting from 0 is SLOW (I mean really really slow) and even if you push by foot... it's still slow as hell... it's noisy when you ride even if you get used to that. Hill climbing is really a pain, you don't even go there, even small hills. I like the hub look, even if it's outside the wheels, the job is pretty impressive.

I gave a try yesterday to FOC mode... with many settings and man... you don't want to ride it in town... almost no braking... and acceleration is slower than slow !

Click to expand...

As a conclusion, I will continue my tests but maybe it's me... I just don't get the hype around hub motors.... as single drives are WAY more efficient according to this early test... just waiting to try and try ! F.O.C even if its still new is awesome on a hub motor, because you ride silently... nevertheless I also don't get the hype about FOC... not really convinced that this is better than BLDC for our electric skateboards (less punch, less brake = less security)

I tried also a single Tacoon 245kv in BLDC mode with 14/32T... it's way better than the hub... really fun when you get up to speed.... but I still prefer without any hesitation a single RSPEC 190kv on 12S (I don't have any auctions at Enertion!)

Enjoy!

okp said:

BLDC SINGLE DRIVE  RSPEC 6355 190kv 14/32T
12S - motor max 80 / motor regen -60 / batt max 60 / batt min regen -20 / startup boost to 0,050
- 518.7mah=> 3.65 km - 48.8V
- 985.7 mah => 5.84km - 47.7v
- 1538.7 man => 10.80 - 46.7v
=> charged cap : 158.6mAh

BLDC SINGLE HUB CARVEON v2 / 90mm
12S - motor max 80 / motor regen -60 / batt max 60 / batt min regen -20 / startup boost to 0,050
BLDC - Min ERPM Limit : 600 (instead of 900) / ERPM Limit 50 (instead of 150)

- 838,3mah => 6,43km - 47.8V
- moved startup boost to 0.060 
- 1976.2 mah => 15.73km - 46V
- charged cap : 111.4mah

Click to expand...

hey okp! cool comparison, but I dont get the efficiency thing! :?

if I read it correctly, you used 1540mAh to go 11km with rspecc belt drive while it took you 1976mAh for 15.7km with the hub. range ratio is 1:1.45, so if you multiply 1538mAh x 1.45 you end up at hypothetical 2230mAh for the 15.7km with the belt drive. either I didnt get your numbers, or I didnt get your conclusion. it looks to me as if the hub motor is more efficient (putting aside that it is EXTREMELY hard to compare in just 2 rides --> maybe different track, different trigger finger since the hub behaved differently, maybe wind changed too).

also im very interested in how the comfort changed between the setups. like, thick 90mm abec 75A with lots of meat should feel very different to the slim urethane shell of hub motors. any impressions on that?

about your FOC experience: yes, I also have slightly less acceleration compared to BLCD, but not that extreme. it might come down to KP and KI FOC values? vedder said, he set the things up in his living room, trying to get across the carpet. in my eyes, the FOC and BLCD integral and proportional values are all screwed up for normal riding on the road. might be necessary to fiddle more with foc to really make it work on the road. in the end I had fairly decent normal behavior, but I kept getting VESC crashes despite the C18 mod (dont ask me about all my parameters, its been a while when I decided to stay with blcd until someone confirms rocksolid performance).
curious about my german dual vescs with the ridiculously large capacitor bank for my mountain board - might get better results there. just waiting for the cells to arrive for my 10S6P battery

I think the CarvOn guy (Lever) was saying that the VESC and the hub motors are not so great pairing.

Could just be settings or might make sense to use different ESC for Hub builds.

@whitepony : I like the 80mm Kegels a lot (light, fast and grippy) but I think that Carveon did well in terms of machining the 90mm Wheels, it's really comfortable when you get at speed... only problem is getting at speed

@CSN : I need to get another ESC to try this maybe the VESC is not doing honor to these little gems or maybe their kv could be lower ? damn these tests are gonna cost me a leg (especially in terms of customs!)

Cool review okp! Believe it or not, some people actually like it the way you just explained it--slow start but with a good top end speed. It's important that the ESC can supply the high amps needed on startup because of the absence of gearing. The amps does even out once its moving.

I have to be honest with you guys, I really haven't tried my hubs with VESC. I'm still waiting for them from chaka (hello chaka?). I've just been riding my dual hubs with Xerun 150A and they run like champs, able to get me to 35mph. But I do have riders that have paired them with VESC and like them a lot. They especially like the stealthiness when it's on FOC mode and the fact that they can kick it like a normal longboard.

hey, thanks for the kind message.

As a disclaimer but as you may all know me from my builds, I have no objective at all to chime on products as of course one does not fits all. I know my kind/style of riding maybe different from another guy.

All I can say at the moment is that Jerry from Carvon provided me with a masterpiece of jewelery (even photos don't do justice), fast shipping to Europe and top notch "customer" communication and I mean really friendly/fast and professional communication.. (quite sure this will inspire some other folks who seem to don't understand that service is way more important once you get the product).

My thinking is more about the hub technology benefits vs BLDC (except the noise removal).

Maybe:
- VESC is "too smooth/progressive" for hubs = I need to try that with another ESC
- I don't got the top notch vesc tuning configuration yet on BLDC

One important thing is this has to be seen as my first feelings and it's in no way definitive appreciation of my experience with hub motors. I will share on this thread all my upcoming tests and try to make them as accurate as possible. I will also post some videos so people get a visual understand which worth sometimes more than words. Hopefully we'll all progress from that.

I will report back !

I have a really bad video up of me riding the hub motors ill be selling soon and in it I'm riding with the vesc on FOC. I'm riding 12s. On FOC it is a bit less torque than on bldc but I prefer it. The brakes are excellent as well and I found them using the bldc program too abrupt. I go down at least a ten degree incline in that video

Maybe your settings aren't ideal?

I'd imagine since jerry's motors are huge that torque from a standstill shouldn't be a problem at all and neither hills nor braking. What I'm riding are 100kv and I was thinking that puts them at a least 35mph Max at the expense of torque but I found it good enough and am keeping with it. I forget what kv jerry's are

yes, hopefully this will come from my settings which should not be ideal, so if anyone has some tips please share.

Otherwise, BLDC settings are pretty straightforward on non Hub settings.

Don't know the KV of the motor I got.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=36656
149 kv

okp, I'm guessing here because I have not used VESC, but check your neutral range and try to put it on narrow or smallest range. Happened to one of my riders when he had the range on widest and was only getting to 20mph max on Dual hubs at 12s. Now he gets to 30mph easily after adjusting to narrowest neutral range....and it's not even maxed out yet.

When I experimented with Jerry's hub motor, I got (by far) the best performance with my VESC set to Duty Cycle.

hey steve, great; so you just basically choose DC instead of FOC/BLDC and that's it? what kind of battery were you using ? do you remember your specs ?

ok, maybe I am missing something. I know this is a bench test and with no load but I don't get how you manage to use DC ... it's just a fail on my side.

[youtube]fTvGPh7RF80[/youtube]

so it comes down to BLDC or FOC... does anyone has some settings that work with the CarvOn hub motors with a decent acceleration ? I just would like to see people moving from standstill or just a little push to see how it acts in the first 5/10 seconds, with no music, just basic stuff / no onboard video (as it increase the feeling of speed)

I also need to get another ESC to find out if the VESC "too progressive" is just messing up with this. Unfortunately I don't have any ESC around (except 6 VESC at home ) and I am going to get customs again which is starting to cost me more than a leg for the science does HK sells a decent ESC that I could use ?

Hey Jerry, is the hub 149kv? I have checked and the lack of power at start is not due to my throttle as I switch between BLDC and FOC as well as 190kv or 245kv motors and the throttle curve is default one, I checked on the PPM stuff and I got full coverage from minus to maximum

thanks!

I recently rode mccloed's board with a Single and VESC. I just rode it up to 5mph, basically I just wanted to see how it started, and it did go fine. mccloed even starts it without kicking and it goes. It's not a rocket-start, but it went, no cogging, just smooth.

This guy is over 200 lb and his problem is actually braking, but never told me anything about startup problems: https://www.instagram.com/vince.fab/

You have Rik with a Single and VESC at http://runplayback.com/heres-what-28mph-on-an-electric-skateboard-feels-like

Yes, I tested them and its between 145 - 155 kv range. I wish I can give you recommended settings, but until I get my VESC, I'm just guessing.

I would think that the hub will go faster than your geared setup because it's direct drive and only 41kv less than 190kv. I think the VESC has aggressive current-limiting feature on.

yeah that's what I though. I need to get an hand on an another ESC to compare; people don't hesitate to share with me your configuration settings/tuning; I will film and report back

http://www.electric-skateboard.builders/t/vesc-foc-braking-trouble/996/16

Screen shots of FOC with 100kv hub motors and there's not a thing I'd change.

hey hummie, thanks for your input.

Would it be possible for you to setup FW 2.15 and provide me with the FOC settings (I mean the one that affect FOC)?

I see lots of settings in your screenshots configured on BLDC but these are ineffective when in FOC aren't they (i.e motor boost ...)?

Maybe I am wrong but I see lots of mixed stuff here... that could be great if one could clarify the configuration with rationale for the values modified for a working hub motor in FOC (or BLDC) making it simple ... as today it looks like a guessing exercice for many of us. You have configured DELAY... but how does it impact FOC... ? I thought it was only BLDC...

I don't have contact with RunPlayBack (dope videos!) but I think he could be a great help as he was running single hub carvon... Jerry, can you get in touch with him to see if he's willing to make a start from 0 videos without music? Seems he was running the default FOC configuration by looking on his (nice) blog.

Even if it's not FOC... (which make from my perspective the use of HUB motor way less sexy due to the strong noise)... BLDC mode is still slow as hell to get up to speed.

I will film that this week and give you some footage.

Jerry, maybe your VESCs will arrive one day (which will be good as you'll be able to provide settings at the root)... in 2017.. who knows, some guys are still waiting for their VESC and magic happens when they come to forums complaining about the beautiful customer service of some DIY sellers selling something which seems complicated for them to deliver I know one guy in Europe which is top notch quality service for VESC... and delivers them on time.

Maybe increase startup boost to .090?

http://www.electric-skateboard.builders/t/vesc-faq-best-settings-for-hub-motors/212/1

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72727&p=1098346&hilit=elkick+hub#p1098346

got my test board ready

I will report back with live videos on:
- 12S lipo / BLDC
- 10S3P / BLDC - FOC

as well as with the settings. I will pick my laptop to modify
- BLDC startup boost
- FOC... just don't know is it the Ki KP from the speed control that I need to modify ?

I think ur right those were in bldc that I posted. I will post what I have in 3 weeks when it's running again.

Last I plugged it in it wasn't connecting. Some little thing I bet, but I don't think about it until I have new motors. I don't think it would show anything other than the default without being connected to a motor? If I can get my last setting just plugging it in without a motor I'll see now. Nope. I'll tell u in three weeks when I put it back together with new motors. I gave up rewinding.

thanks.

Here my testing deck

I am going to put an eagletree heavy duty to get some live ground measures.

10S3P / 245kv / 190kv / Hub (BLDC & FOC)
12S / 190kv / Hub (BLDC)

today is the day guys ! It's still bit cold ... I got as well an APS dual ESC for the battle and an Evolve Carbon Street for full throttle tests

So I will be testing single VESC.... and APS !!!
- 10S3P with RSPEC 190kv FOC/BLDC - 32/14T - Kegels
- 10S3P with Tacoon 245kv FOC/BLDC - 32/14T - Kegels
- 10S3P with Carvon Hub FOC/BLDC - 90mm
- 12S with RSPEC 190kv FOC/BLDC - 32/14T - Kegels
- 12S with Carvon Hub FOC/BLDC - 90mm

compared to Evolve Carbon street and if I am lucky we'll get a timer on that.

woa, that sounds like a lot of skating :lol: