Loaded Vanguard Carbon Cast Ronin Single VESC 10S4P

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 03 2016 4:05pm

randyc1 wrote:Beautifull quality build !

Really flexy , looking forward to your comparisons to a stiffer board for ruising and at speed ??
yea, me too - but tbh, right now Im reusing the topspeed trucks which were 44° calibers and I have this really crazy wheelbase of the larger 42" vanguard. despite its silly flex, its very stable. I ran it down a few hills an hour ago and probably got to 40kph with a great surfy feeling and no sign of speed wobbles. might be different with 50° calibers or the shorter 38" flex3+ vanguards?

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by bobfandango » Jun 03 2016 4:52pm

whitepony wrote:
...
timewise, I got a 10h job, but instead of kids I have 2 dogs which gives me a little more time in the evenings and weekends compared to what dads have. I dont even get much done, just taking everything step by step, 1-2hours max on free evenings.
...
oh yea, about the board: its a flex 2 42" vanguard and I weight 80kg. its REALLY flexible as you can see, dont think it will hurt to add one GFK layer ontop to seal the wire channels. :?

Er, yeah, 3 kids here... One of them 5 mo old. So yeah, no time is an understatement. It's taken me many months, and I still don't have a completely functioning board due to lack of good enclosure. I have a 12s4p in 2 6s sticks, so I can't tolerate flex and am still trying to figure out a suitable enclosure.... wish now I'd gone with a split pack like this, but I just didn't think of it.... hidden wires are awesome too... I have another 52 cells, so will probably start over and build a split pack, 10S4P like you've done here. Thanks for the info re flex... I have about 14 kg on you, so will go with a flex 1. Thanks!

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by randyc1 » Jun 03 2016 10:08pm

Where is your 6374 going?

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 03 2016 11:35pm

bobfandango wrote: Er, yeah, 3 kids here... One of them 5 mo old. So yeah, no time is an understatement. It's taken me many months, and I still don't have a completely functioning board due to lack of good enclosure. I have a 12s4p in 2 6s sticks, so I can't tolerate flex and am still trying to figure out a suitable enclosure.... wish now I'd gone with a split pack like this, but I just didn't think of it.... hidden wires are awesome too... I have another 52 cells, so will probably start over and build a split pack, 10S4P like you've done here.
I have a colleague who has 3 kids and I built an electric skateboard together with him. I couldnt believe how hard he had to try to get the 1-2 hours off to build his board with me. I had everything prepared for him, just some drilling and sticking stuff together. now he has a board, but his kids want to ride it whenever he is just looking at it ... so I actually only have ridden ONCE with him right after assembly. in that moment I was kinda relieved that I "only" had 2 lucky dogs that just vanish in various parts of the house for 3-4 hours after a long expedition into the german forests. :P

a fast foolproof option for little time could be my first enclosure type:
Image

it is still a really great enclosure, that prevents ANY flex for the battery, but leaves the boards flex nearly untouched. if you split that kind of enclosure in 2 for a vanguard, it will be pretty cheap, very accessible and also very fast to build with 100% non-battery flex, electronic shock dampening and leaves the boards flex nearly untouched.


@randyc1: the vanguard will get the motor first - on the pictures the r-specc is still attached to the torqueboard v2 mounts of my very first topspeed build. :) I might upgrade the tesseract later if I like the motor. must say the tesseract runs super well after 15/36 gearing change, just the vesc is a little hot at times. can often feel the vesc power down and then I know its cooking time inside the enclosure since the soft off is 80°C mosfet temp. :|

still waiting for a few things - most of all for a vesc, so Ill take my time. hope that I have everything until july for my holidays! 8)

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by bobfandango » Jun 04 2016 2:04am

I went and looked at your older builds, but didn't find the one with that gold aluminum. The closest thing I found is the Topspeed case made from carbon plate, aluminum L, and rubber tubes of some sort the allow for stretch or compression in the right places... Should work well for me, and may go that way.

But can you clarify for me what these rubber tubes are and maybe point to a source?

Thanks so much!

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 04 2016 3:29am

the first proper topspeed case is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1112270

and the first tesseract case can be found here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1143152

the rubber cylinders are of this kind with 1cm diameter and 2cm height:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gummipuffer-B-6- ... DTdlqs3FQw

I still think they are good enclosures, the enclosures are open too, which is why I never had ANY heat issues at all with those in contrast to my closed carbon enclosures. the board can flex and breathe, the battery will never flex, because the carbon + aluminum angle combo is really strong and all vibrations are dampened too. it just doesnt look as professional as a carbon enclosure clinging perfectly to the 3D board surface. :)

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 04 2016 1:17pm

finished the battery from LG HG2 cells today - didnt change much except for some hot glue and the cardboard protections of the plus poles compared to my other builds - shrink wrapped, done!

also added some 2mm felt sheet on the enclosures to protect electronics from vibrations and conducting carbon :)
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everything fits quite well:
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also started working on the cables within the board, but Im still waiting for some GFK twill to arrive, so I cant go on from there anyway right now. Ill most likely try to prepare the drilled holes to the underside so that I wont leak any resin. still thinking about what material would be best! maybe actually hot glue, since resin doesnt bond with the silicone wires.
Image

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by randyc1 » Jun 06 2016 10:50am

Love the look of NO wires from enclosure , got to try this myself.

Did you have to shorten the the motor wires ?

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 06 2016 1:43pm

you can make one loop with the motor wires like longhairedboy. its important to leave the motor wires long, else youll get tension/movement at the motor wire exit and eventually the isolation wears down and the motor shorts (happened to me).

I filled the cavities with resin yesterday, put it in the vacuum bag so the wires will be pressed into the channels. today I took some elastic filler and filled the last bit up. with griptape on the board, you wont see the wire channels anymore:
Image

Image


I also unwrapped the battery again, wanted to add a little more hot glue in some places and changed the connections to the inlaid board wires to work with 5.5mm gold connectors. between the short red and black connections on the picture Ill have the inlaid wires, connected by corresponding 5.5mm gold connectors. that way I can always separate the battery from the board any day. unlike on my tesseract, I will also use 4mm bullet connectors for the motor wires connection, so that I can remove the vesc from the board. on my tesseract, its directly soldered to the channel wires and it was a little impractical in the beginning where I was still having enclosure problems.

Image

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finally I drilled 2 small dimples into the SK6374 168KV shaft. took a while until i figured out how to do that properly with the drill press but Im really happy with it - I hit the exact spot so that the pulley "snaps" into the right place by the 2 grub screws. dont think Ill have issues with traction like that and probably the shaft is less weakened compared to a keyway?

Image

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by Ballistrophobia » Jun 07 2016 3:59pm

Just saw this thread. Great work as always, Whitepony. I love your build style. Hope I can post my own build eventually but I'm still, frustratingly, waiting on parts to become available. I'll have to settle for salivating over you builds til then haha.


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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 08 2016 5:02pm

ordered another german vesc now since my enertion vescs from early march probably wont make it in time and I want to ride the vanguard in denmark. pricy decision :?

but after I burnt 2 vescs within 1 week, its probably never in vain to have spare vescs - I still didnt dare to play with foc after I killed a vesc with it ... would really love to have a supersilent board. with a spare vesc, maybe I can longterm test foc again.

anyway, yesterday I put on 2 patches of GFK over the wire channels on the boards topside and then another GFK layer for the whole board since I sanded the top stock GFK layer of the vanguard a little. it cured 24h and I sanded it earlier, looks good but it was dark already, so I didnt take a picture. the flex didnt really change, checked with the swing frequency of me on the board and its just a tiiiiny weee bit faster = stiffer. i think its because I added things on topside. bottom would have much more effect on the flex.

I then applied griptape and installed the front battery with 5.5mm bullet connectors, slapped on the enclosure and added bullet connectors to the motor wires too. its really very clean so far - the battery with the 2x 5.5mm bullet connectors inside just fits like a glove!

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 10 2016 5:21pm

just came back from my first nightly 20km maidens ride on the vanguard. cant even say what makes me more happy - the great carving and playing with the really perfect flex, the strong SK6374 168KV with the 16/36T gearing or that I ran the board in FOC mode and it felt just awesome! :D

lets start with the ride itself: the vanguard is just a trampoline really, you push it out when you carve and it will just hit you back with your own energy when you come out of the turn. feels really cool, certainly less precise but very lively and fun. I knew flexy boards from pushing and pumping, but I still wasnt sure how it would feel at 30-40kph. well, now I know: it feels great and its a pretty stable ride too. 42" helps with going fast I guess, even though Im using 50° caliber IIs.

a nice sideeffect of the enormous flex: the board just eats up ANY pavement - it felt like I was in one of those old american movie cars with the supersoft suspension, just flexing away over everything and if that wasnt enough, Im still riding on my beloved 90mm 75A abecs. I currently lent the drive gear from my tesseract, since noone has a 15mm drive gear axcept for alienpowersystem and they are on holidays. might swap to my kegels tomorrow because I still have an ADS 15mm pulley for those!


on the SK3 6374 168KV motor: the KV is perfect for my kind of cruising - in combination with 16/36T gearing and 90mm wheels it should in theory reach 45kph, in praxis it felt less (didnt have gps with me), but I was also on my new battery which was yet uncharged at 36V and and Im running FOC which is known to lack some top end. the only thing I didnt like about the motor are the stiff wires - will eventually replace them with silicone wires someday, because I doubt these wires will last forever. still, for the money you cant really complain - apart from the wires I wouldnt be able to tell a difference to my r-specc from a finish, balance and sound POV. its hard to compare the torque of rspecc 6355 and 6374 sk directly, since rspec is still running bldc and SK3 is running in FOC mode. the 6374 definitely had a lot of grunt and headed straight to topspeed without hesitating ... but it was also extremely smooth in foc mode. think in bldc it would feel a lot stronger compared to my small 6355 rspec!


FOC mode: omg, finally I dont feel like waking up the whole neighborhood when I cruise through our streets at nights. its much smoother than BLDC and the sound is just amazing. its extremely silent at low speed and still quite a bit more silent also at max speed. best thing is, that it really worked stable for me for the whole 20km tour. next thing Ill do is also change my tesseract to FOC. it gives the board a whole new level of stealth. in combination with the very natural feeling vanguard and barely any motorsound, the longboard experience is much closer to a naked board right now. really love it :)


I kinda screwed up with the enclosure dimension. initially I planned to have room for 2 vescs, then midway I decided to go with just one and also made just one phase wire channel. in the end that was the perfectly right thing to do, as it turns out that the enclosure has only room for one vesc really. :P

I added torqueboards 120A switch to the build - just need to add a proper switch to the enclosure - the original stainless steel switch is simply too large of a diameter for the really slim enclosure. note how I just soldered everything directly and made the shortest possible connections to help the vesc FOC mode.
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sk6374 and enertion motor mount - for calibers its the best mount really in my opinion.
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whole board with limping tesseract in background, missing its drive wheel + gear . 8) it got vicious grip tape for extreme carving and really looks super slim - the enclosures are barely visible really, very stealthy looks! :)
Image

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Rikobonito   100 W

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by Rikobonito » Jun 10 2016 6:12pm

slim as top model !
love it :P
my little blog with e-sk8, e-Cruiser, e-pintail, e-MTBoard, e-Dirt Scooter and others builds
... I wish also an e-MTBike soon !! :v: Thanks DIY Power community :wink:

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by piyiotisk » Jun 11 2016 6:57am

1) How the made in Germany VESC is performing compared to others?
2) What wheel pulley do you use? (Enertion plastic one?)
3) Can you sell those carbon enclosures? :D

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 11 2016 8:38am

piyiotisk wrote:1) How the made in Germany VESC is performing compared to others?
2) What wheel pulley do you use? (Enertion plastic one?)
3) Can you sell those carbon enclosures? :D
I had german vescs before which seemed comparably warm and ultimately I lost them both - one by playing around with FOC, one just died under load, but to be fair: I had a weird induction voltage from a XT90S loop key which I still dont understand, so I wouldnt want to spread any weird rumors. they got repaired and 1 of them is working in my trampa, the other in my tesseract and thats probably way beyond the 1000km mark.

the german vesc I used on the vanguard yesterday didnt seem warm at all, but its impossible for me to tell anything specific. my tesseract vesc usually started to get into the mostfet 80°C region and then I lost power from the soft off strategy. I didnt have that yesterday with the SK6374 and FOC, the enclosure was also cool, but that could be attributed to my 2mm felt sheet inside the enclosure which acts as an insulation.

bottom line: impossible to tell anything specific and its very unfortunate that me and weechumlee apparantly had similar issues which probably leads people to conclusions that have no real basis. our issues can stem from literally anything but the vesc itself! Ill have to do a lot more riding and I also would have to switch the tesseract to FOC to make heat comparisons.

my motor and wheel pulleys are my leftovers of my topspeed build, i.e. basically fairly old diyelectricskateboard pulleys, 15mm wide, 8mm bore and the wheel pulley is 12mm wide and 36T. weird enough, my 15mm belt only extends max 1mm beyond the pulley, so somehow I doubt the 12mm :p

about the enclosure: making batteries is easy and clean, these enclosures however are on a different level. dont think I would be up for this kind of effort OR if I were, you probably wouldnt be willing to pay the amount of time I sink into making them. :p also I would need a board for this, wont use mine because its full threaded inserts and inserted cables sticking out all over the place!

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by shred » Jun 11 2016 10:41am

awesome stuff! beautiful builds! enjoy riding!

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by randyc1 » Jun 11 2016 1:58pm

Beautifull Loaded Vanguard !!,.. love the Carbon Mount with Carbon enclosure ,.. Great job!

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by rmrf » Jun 11 2016 3:14pm

whitepony wrote:will eventually replace them with silicone wires someday, because I doubt these wires will last forever
Have you done it before? I want to change wires on my SK3 motor but I don't know how should I do it. Either disassemble the motor and remove the old wires completely or just cut the old wires so that about 2cm of them is left and solder silicone wires to it?

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 11 2016 3:31pm

rmrf wrote:Have you done it before? I want to change wires on my SK3 motor but I don't know how should I do it. Either disassemble the motor and remove the old wires completely or just cut the old wires so that about 2cm of them is left and solder silicone wires to it?
havent done it before, but it cant be that hard! Ill wait till the cables break and do it then. just want to ride now, had enough fiddling the last few weeks! :P

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by randyc1 » Jun 11 2016 3:55pm

...Wonder which board you will prefer in the long run ,..Flexy or Stiffer ??

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 11 2016 4:12pm

I think i prefer BOTH already :)

the vanguard is a really cool cruiser and its great for my knees cause it just flies over bad pavement and eats it all up, the tesseract is just a precise fast board, shouldve maybe set it up for dual motor for 50kph+ to make the offset between these 2 larger.

its interesting how carving hard is actually a lot more exhausting with the vanguard compared to the tesseract. for once, its the playing with the energy -> into the board, next carving turn, out of the board, repeat. 2nd reason is: the vanguard is really slim and my standard bushing setup krank barrels 93 / 87 roadside is a little stiff for the small lever. thinking of using a cone actually to suit the character of the board more and so that I dont have to work so hard to cant it.

whats kinda funny with the immense rebound of the board: when you pressed the energy into the deck and charge into the next turn, you decompress the board, it nearly comes up in the air and the single motor driven wheel will always break loose when that happens. guess it might be annoying on the long run? :?

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 12 2016 7:27am

ok, nvm what I said, this flexy setup is definitely my favourite! :P

did a max range check today, riding nonstop around a nice lake near our town - after 32km I hit 32V and stopped. quite disappointing after I made 39km with the tesseract down to 30V. :(

I didnt expect an efficiency revelation with FOC, but this is even a little worse than my 6355 rspecc tesseract imo - in very similar conditions with exact the same bearings and wheels.

several things changed compared to tesseract:

* the battery got a little more heat during building - hot glue and a few thicker soldering issues the copper reinforcements. I doubt that I destroyed anything though, was still very careful.
* the motor is different - instead of 190KV rspecc with 15/36T, i got the SK6374 168KV with 16/36T. the motor feels very good tbh, topspeed around 40kph and better torque from standstill despite 50A battery current limit
* BLDC tesseract vs. FOC vanguard
* torqueboards power switch is on the vanguard, there will be SOME minor losses, but nothing dramatic
* I definitely carved a little harder with the vanguard, but not by that much

when Im on holidays in 2 weeks, Ill have time enough to do a few more max range checks, most of all BLDC vs. FOC! Ill get to the ground of this eventually! :)

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 12 2016 7:46am

yesterdays evening tour
Image

left a few marks today :)
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finally some foc acceleration and braking video, that I shot with my phone in my hand. its interesting that the low speed is really silent, but mid to top speed is just as loud as BLDC in my opinion. not sure if its simply the sound the motor RPM makes or if it can be contributed to the commutation mode? in any case, thats how an SK6374 168KV with VESC in FOC mode sounds!

p.s.: I didnt fart in the end! :P :P

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by randyc1 » Jun 12 2016 9:43am

Both of these boards in comparison are using the LG batteries?,..if you would have drained to 30v ,..would it have been very similar in range ??

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