Loaded Vanguard Carbon Cast Ronin Single VESC 10S4P

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
hexakopter   1 mW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by hexakopter » Jun 12 2016 9:54am

Really great build. I think there are just a few boards out there build with that perfection. Hats off! :D

I am still confused with the FOC mode and Normal BLDC mode. After I said yesterday, that I have heard FOC will decrease the top speed of the board I was rethinking why. When I understand it correctly the Filed Oriented Control offers the possibility for field weakening. With that field weakening one can get a higher top speed. (like other e-bike controllers does) Maybe I should read more about that topic.
whitepony wrote: finally I drilled 2 small dimples into the SK6374 168KV shaft. took a while until i figured out how to do that properly with the drill press but Im really happy with it - I hit the exact spot so that the pulley "snaps" into the right place by the 2 grub screws. dont think Ill have issues with traction like that and probably the shaft is less weakened compared to a keyway?
You said that it took a while to figure the drilling with the drill press out. Can you maybe share what was the best way to do it? I must do that in the future for my motor and I think it will help when I have a certain procedure. My new 15mm pulleys have no threads in it, so I have the freedom to put them where I want. My idea was to drill one hole to the end of the pulley (the part that is near to the motor without the teeth) and one directly in the middle of the pulley between two teeth. Both holes 90 degrees offset. Do you think that would be a good idea? You drilled with 3mm, right?

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Another Loaded Vanguard | Carbon Enclosure | 10S4P Singl

Post by whitepony » Jun 12 2016 12:04pm

randyc1 wrote:Both of these boards in comparison are using the LG batteries?,..if you would have drained to 30v ,..would it have been very similar in range ??
yea, batteries are basically identical! 32 vs 30 isnt a big difference from a capacity point of view - my vescs are in soft exit strat by 32V and youll barely go beyond 10kph. I really think it was the excessive carving, I really carved harder than ever with the wheels breaking away from me not only once.

the 39km tesseract run was more like a tour with partially bad pavement where I couldnt really carve hard due to lack of grip.

hexakopter wrote:I am still confused with the FOC mode and Normal BLDC mode. After I said yesterday, that I have heard FOC will decrease the top speed of the board I was rethinking why. When I understand it correctly the Filed Oriented Control offers the possibility for field weakening. With that field weakening one can get a higher top speed. (like other e-bike controllers does) Maybe I should read more about that topic.
yea no, I dont know anything about FOC except for the canon on these forums :)
hexakopter wrote:You said that it took a while to figure the drilling with the drill press out. Can you maybe share what was the best way to do it? I must do that in the future for my motor and I think it will help when I have a certain procedure. My new 15mm pulleys have no threads in it, so I have the freedom to put them where I want. My idea was to drill one hole to the end of the pulley (the part that is near to the motor without the teeth) and one directly in the middle of the pulley between two teeth. Both holes 90 degrees offset. Do you think that would be a good idea? You drilled with 3mm, right?
my pulleys had threads already in a 180° pattern between the teeth. all I had to do was adding these small dimples in the motor shaft where the cone tips of the grub screws could enter a little. I started out with the drill press going super careful, applying no pressure at all. that resulted in a drill bit circling around the point that I wanted to drill. the "trick" was, to really aim well and then ram the drill press down with "some" force. this initial force creates a tiny hole that prevents the drill bit from circling around and from there you can drill normal as far as you want. I actually used a pretty wide drill bit, think it was 5 or 6mm - my plan was to only add this small cone into the shaft.

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 12 2016 4:13pm

made the sk6374 silicone mod - had a lot of trouble getting the coating of the motorwires, used bunsen burner, knife and sand paper. I hope the connection is good - you can see that the motor wires at the end of the soldering area didnt accept solder, its still a very low resistance connection, measured it.

pulled out all the shrink tube, sticked both cable ends into each other and started soldering:
Image

then I re-added really thick shrink tube with glue inside - sticked it really far in! think this should be fine - the silicone wires are so much better now ... their flexibility will keep all strain from the wire exit of the motor :)
Image

nowind   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by nowind » Jun 13 2016 11:53am

Nice work man.
This coated motorwires are really bad to solder.
Good mod :!:

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 16 2016 2:01pm

its good to see that one learns from mistakes - my vanguard is holding up really really well, not a single issue since I set up it for riding the first time. enclosures hold up, mounting holes are intact, no loose screws, no electric issues, no rattling, the waterproof switch with the 120A torqueboard antispark power switch is a nice touch over the sparkly loop key of the tesseract.

been riding the vanguard for about 300km now (all with foc), it has become my favourite board very quickly - so smooth, such fun to play with the flex, better grip too than the tesseract imo, especially on bad pavement, probably because of the better flex/damping. IM loving the flex, was thinking a long time about flex 2 (vs flex 1) when I bought it, but it feels like the one layer GFK to cover the wire channels was enough to stiffen it up just enough to be simply spot on (possibly its where a flex1 is now?). if I could decrease or increase flex, I would just leave it right where it is right now. I also really like the size of 42" - very happy that I didnt buy the flex 3 38" version that boosted and some builds here are using! with my 182cm and fairly long legs, its really a perfect super comfy stance - I enjoy using a narrow stance to really work with the flex at times and when I go for speed, I just widen the stance a little and its really just superstable at 40kph - no feeling of impending speed wobble doom at all.

Im also really enjoying the 168KV SK6374 with the 16/36T gearing. feels great for my use of carving around 30kph. Im having NO heat issues at all anymore - the way to work and back had a few longer inclines where the tesseract setup with 15/36T 6355 190KV rspecc and BLDC is simply getting so hot that the vesc is powering down and removing torque. thats just not happening anymore with the 16/36T 6374 168KV combo. question is: whats the reason? 168KV vs 190KV, BLDC vs FOC, newer german vesc vs. older german vesc? in any way, Im REALLY happy!! :)

piyiotisk   10 mW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by piyiotisk » Jun 16 2016 5:45pm

I am interested in building something similar and I would like to know if you can share your body weight. If it is similar to mine so I would buy the same motor gearing etc.

randyc1   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by randyc1 » Jun 16 2016 7:35pm

whitepony wrote:its good to see that one learns from mistakes - my vanguard is holding up really really well, not a single issue since I set up it for riding the first time. enclosures hold up, mounting holes are intact, no loose screws, no electric issues, no rattling, the waterproof switch with the 120A torqueboard antispark power switch is a nice touch over the sparkly loop key of the tesseract.

been riding the vanguard for about 300km now (all with foc), it has become my favourite board very quickly - so smooth, such fun to play with the flex, better grip too than the tesseract imo, especially on bad pavement, probably because of the better flex/damping. IM loving the flex, was thinking a long time about flex 2 (vs flex 1) when I bought it, but it feels like the one layer GFK to cover the wire channels was enough to stiffen it up just enough to be simply spot on (possibly its where a flex1 is now?). if I could decrease or increase flex, I would just leave it right where it is right now. I also really like the size of 42" - very happy that I didnt buy the flex 3 38" version that boosted and some builds here are using! with my 182cm and fairly long legs, its really a perfect super comfy stance - I enjoy using a narrow stance to really work with the flex at times and when I go for speed, I just widen the stance a little and its really just superstable at 40kph - no feeling of impending speed wobble doom at all.

Im also really enjoying the 168KV SK6374 with the 16/36T gearing. feels great for my use of carving around 30kph. Im having NO heat issues at all anymore - the way to work and back had a few longer inclines where the tesseract setup with 15/36T 6355 190KV rspecc and BLDC is simply getting so hot that the vesc is powering down and removing torque. thats just not happening anymore with the 16/36T 6374 168KV combo. question is: whats the reason? 168KV vs 190KV, BLDC vs FOC, newer german vesc vs. older german vesc? in any way, Im REALLY happy!! :)

Glad to see your loving your board !

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 17 2016 12:14am

piyiotisk wrote:I am interested in building something similar and I would like to know if you can share your body weight. If it is similar to mine so I would buy the same motor gearing etc.
sure, its 80kg! you can tell that the motor has the power to go 50kph+, but I realized at some point that I simply dont use that kind of speed or, if at all, then just as a quick gimmick for a short moment.

basically I wanted the largest commercially available gearing 16/36T for max motor pulley teeth torque transfer, and since there is no way around 90mm abecs, I chose the rest to hit 45kph theory max. maybe with field weakening foc, the motor wouldnt just stop at 41kph. Im surely trying bldc in denmark holidays to clear up the 32km range "stain". either Im loosing Wh somewhere unexpected or focs efficienc isnt better than bldc in the vesc implementation!

piyiotisk   10 mW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by piyiotisk » Jun 17 2016 4:20am

Great I am 81! I believe that this setup is perfect in terms of torque vs speed. I will try it for sure

akiraEC   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by akiraEC » Jun 20 2016 3:09am

Hi Whitepony
I would like to go the channel way to make the cable disappear.
I did not quite understand what you fineally did to fill in the channels. Have you used glue or resin ?
Did you glue the bullet connectors before putting the resin ?

Anyway, your build is amazing !!
I wish I could do mine half as beautiful as yours.

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 20 2016 3:07pm

hey akira! order of things:

* measured cables very exactly and drilled very tight fitting holes
* soldered motor wire bullet connector exits with 90°. did that before resin/glue since the bullet connectors will be halfway sunk into the board
* added thick shrink tape with glue inside to the motor wire bullet connectors
* measured the shrink wrapped motor wire connectors and drilled 3 really perfect fitting 6.5mm holes that fit the connectors so tightly that I had to use a hammer to get them in position
* added hot glue from board topside to all cable/hole connections to seal it perfectly and to add some tension to the cables so they are nice flat and fully sunk into the channels

* prepared like that, I actually filled the channels (with inserted and glued cables) with water to check if it was dripping through the board somewhere. that wasnt the case, phew!

* I let the board dry in the sun for a few hours and finally filled the cable+channels with resin
* after the resin dried out I noticed it wasnt flat, but actually sunk into the routed channels a little, so I decided to use some filler to make it perfectly flat -> filler, sanding, flat!
* finally I added 1 layer of patches of GFK directly over the channels and added one more GFK layer over the complete board to work a little against the introduced weaknesses from the routing. into the vacuum bag -> added grip tape, done!

:)



update with my vanguard: after about 350km I now lost my vesc with a drv8302 error ... maybe I just shouldnt try foc anymore. hopefully it will be repaired before my summer holidays ... :cry:

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by rmrf » Jun 21 2016 2:09am

whitepony wrote: update with my vanguard: after about 350km I now lost my vesc with a drv8302 error ... maybe I just shouldnt try foc anymore. hopefully it will be repaired before my summer holidays ... :cry:
I can recommend VESC repair service in Germany http://vedder.se/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=186 if you need it quick.


akiraEC   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by akiraEC » Jun 21 2016 6:37am

whitepony wrote:hey akira! order of things:
Thank you so much !!
Now I see a bit better how to do it.

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by randyc1 » Jun 21 2016 7:41am

whitepony wrote:yea, my vesc is already there via express mail :P
Dammn , what a bummer losing your vesc again !!

Sucks not really knowing the reason why either !
FOC ?? or same reason as your other vesc ??

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 22 2016 2:27pm

my other vesc died of various reasons I think - one from switching around foc/bldc, one from overload I think (it got superwarm and at 40A it died on me), now the new death I dont know, maybe also load or foc or some combination. pretty sure settings were ok, battery cables were just 5cm short. *shrug*

it was okp, who made adapters for ronins, right? I bought a really cheap landyachtz topspeed which was a sellout kind of thing and just threw all the stuff I had around in my room at it: old kegels, old bearing, old vicious transparent griptape and fully pimped out cast ronins omgomg.

Image

Image

I read so much about them and never had a chance to try them and now I finally did. really enthusiastic how smooth they carve, think they would be a great match with the vanguard in combination with alien or torqueboards motor mount. just need a cast ronin adapter ... anyone made anything like that with printing, cnc/waterjet?

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Rikobonito   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by Rikobonito » Jun 22 2016 7:25pm

Yeah ! Love the shape !! looks pretty good with juste transparent griptape :P
yes it was him,
if you want take a look :arrow: it's here
Image

:wink: Good luck !
my little blog with e-sk8, e-Cruiser, e-pintail, e-MTBoard, e-Dirt Scooter and others builds
... I wish also an e-MTBike soon !! :v: Thanks DIY Power community :wink:

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by eboostin » Jun 23 2016 12:44am

How is the take off from a stop? Is it smoother in BLDC of FOC? Do you think it would be better with hall sensors?

Really enjoy following your builds ever since your extended range evolve battery pack. Thanks for sharing all of them!

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 25 2016 9:10am

eboostin wrote:How is the take off from a stop? Is it smoother in BLDC of FOC? Do you think it would be better with hall sensors?
take off is pretty much the same, it feels even smoother with foc though cause especially the take off is ultra silent. dont think youll ever need sensors for a vesc. I would also never let a motor start working from a stand still - always giving it a push. old habits die hard :)

my repaired vesc is back - 60€ for a changed drv8302 with lightning fast service. its running bldc again and i wont give foc any more tries now - too many dead vescs along the way. also it feels like at intermediate to top speed, bldc is actually more silent compared to foc. Ill test/confirm that later with my vanguard - currently charging battery and waiting for the streets to dry from the rain of the past 2 days. :)

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Rikobonito   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by Rikobonito » Jun 25 2016 1:33pm

yes, the silent of the BLDC is great ! I was asking myself if it wasn't FOC mode first :lol: my vesc comes back from "fast repair" service too from Germany (esk8.de partenaire) and I have the new FW 2.18 vs 1.14 when I send them ! So kiet now !!! :P
(On esk8.de they don't recommand use FOC, or you lost warranty !..)
my little blog with e-sk8, e-Cruiser, e-pintail, e-MTBoard, e-Dirt Scooter and others builds
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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 25 2016 4:37pm

ye, I knew the risk with FOC and Im paying for my curiosity once more. Ive really had it with that mode, BLDC runs faster and equally silent at my preferred load/speed. did a max speed test - FOC 40kph on straights, BLDC 43kph on straights, theoretical 100% efficiency max = 45kph!

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jun 26 2016 2:15pm

came back from a BLDC max range tour. looking pretty bad for foc really, I managed 44.2km and I wasnt even in VESC soft off, stopped at 3.22V/cell. on foc I managed 32km and the last 2 km were in the 3.0-3.2V/cell vesc soft off region already cause I set the battery limits to upper 32V, lower 30V. :|

I carved less hard this time, wider swings, lower speed, these things certainly played a role too - but I had worse pavement as well - on the foc test it was dream pavement. I feel FOC is NOT really more efficient than bldc at all. was already worried, because I hit 40km (last 2km helping with pushing in soft off mode) on my tesseract in bldc with nearly a year old battery that took some abuse and I had to push home after 32km with my brandnew battery in foc mode. sure, couldve been rspecc 190 v. 6374 168 back then, but thats clearly out of the picture now with 44km. that number also seems very reasonable in regard to old HG2 battery (40km) vs. brandnew HG2 battery (44km+). screw foc, I dont believe in it anymore - its also not more silent at the speeds I like.

some screenies for proof. total tour, the average is wrong, I visited my mum in the hospital and forgot to pause:
Image

my average is more like 23kph, so really relaxed cruising:
Image

wasnt totally flat, but mostly:
Image

final voltage of the battery: 32.2V, started fully charged @ 41.4V
Image



by the way: black vicious = superstealth! :D
Image

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Rikobonito   100 W

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by Rikobonito » Jun 27 2016 2:23pm

wow looks fantomagic :P !! Good shoot !

Its a pretty good marathon you could done with it ! AMAZING !!!
my little blog with e-sk8, e-Cruiser, e-pintail, e-MTBoard, e-Dirt Scooter and others builds
... I wish also an e-MTBike soon !! :v: Thanks DIY Power community :wink:

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whitepony   10 kW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by whitepony » Jul 01 2016 12:51pm

tried foc one more time cause I couldnt let the range thing slip ... and it annoyed me that bldc on my way back home from work kept powering down due to het which never happened with foc.

so today i went for a run and i tried to keep an 23kph average like on my bldc run - managed 48km and had to push the last 400m, ended up @ 30V, completely drained. new record, just 9Wh/km!

Image

had a crash mid-drive when i got into a 3x2m gravel bed that wasnt visible until i was in it, pretty bad road rash - thats where the split table is kind of screwed. had to stop bleeding and repair the remote :P
Image

will keep foc again for now, fingers crossed it will stay alive. :)

piyiotisk   10 mW

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Re: Loaded Vanguard Carbon Single VESC SK6374 10S4P

Post by piyiotisk » Jul 03 2016 9:15am

Keep us updated!

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