My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:13 pm

My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Hello E-Scooter enthusiasts. I wanted to share my project with you all because I have learned so much from the other posts here. I would like to give special thanks to ElectricGod (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 35&t=75177).

Here are the project goals as of today:
1. At least 20 miles range averaging 25-30 mph.
2. 40+ mph top speed.
3. No less than 25 mph going up the steepest hills in my area.
4. Keep costs reasonable.

Here is the platform: HyperPowerSports (http://www.hyperpowersports.com) 2017 48V/1600W with SLA batteries.
1600 smaller.jpg
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Planned upgrades that must happen ASAP:
1. Street tires (taller and wider as well), better wheels, better brakes, 219 drivetrain.
2. 72V/20Ah battery, 72V Kelly Controller, 72V 3KW Motor.

Some background: I got started with E-Scooters back in 2009 with my Currie e-Zip 1000. The top speed was only 15 mph and the range was about 7 miles. I enjoyed the scooter and it had nice hill climbing ability but the other limitations were a little tough to deal with.
ezip1000a.jpg
ezip1000a.jpg (11.64 KiB) Viewed 2579 times
I decided to go with an E-Bike and have been riding it for four years now. The E-bike is wonderful to ride and you even get some good exercise. Everything was great while I was living in my relatively flat town, but now I’ve moved. The E-bike has some trouble with the really big hills I live around now, and 250W feels very small now. I looked at upgrading the components and found that I could build a high performance E-Scooter for less.
bike-aries-2.jpg
bike-aries-2.jpg (40.1 KiB) Viewed 2579 times
So now here I am…. Back to E-Scooters, and I’ll keep the posts coming with every upgrade.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:05 pm

Cool. Nice bike...despite being way under powered. I would have to upgrade it significantly. 250 watts...YAWN!

Chargers abound and they usually cost a good bit for a fixed voltage and amperage. I run at 82 volts so I bought four Meanwell 24 volt, 30 amp power supplies. The outputs are fully isolated so you can connect them together in series to get the voltage you need. They are also adjustable to around 16-30 volts so I divided 82 volts by 4 and set each one to 20.5 volts. Now I have a 30 amp 82 volt charger that cost me half of what an equivalent EV charger would cost for the same amps. A lot of people get on ebay and find old server power supplies and run them in series to get the voltage they want. The thing I don't like about this solution is the output voltages are not usually adjustable. So if I need 82 volts or 4.1 volts times 20, well that means with a 12 volt server power supply output I need 7 of them. My charger made of 4 Meanwell power supplies is already big enough. 7 server power supplies is going to be much larger and it will deliver 84 volts..not 82 volts. I trust my BMS to keep my batteries balanced, but they have to do something with the extra 2 volts. I would prefer to not have it get to my batteries...ever. Meanwhile, my adjustable Meanwells can deliver a max of 30 volts each so if I need to go up in voltage, all I need to do is turn a small potentiometer times 4...all the way up to about 120 volts or whatever it is that I need. Regarding amps...and also true for a an EV charger if they can all deliver 30 amps, well that's probably more than your circuit breaker can handle since it's probably good for 15 amps. I ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit to my charger so that If I pop a breaker I only effect the charger. I can pop that breaker since my power supplies can deliver 30 amps so I added some 100 watt 3 ohm resistors in parallel with a switch on the output of the power supplies. When I first start charging, the batteries will suck in whatever I can deliver to them...well over 30 amps! So I limit charge current to about 20 amps with the bank of resistors. Once I see that charging has dropped below about 15 amps, I flip the switch and bypass the resistor bank. For a non-dedicated power circuit you would need to be more conservative than me.

Here's my charger. The four meanwell power supplies are held together with some double sided foam tape. The tape has worked for quite some time and the power supplies are running well. I bought the power supplies from Jameco.
Image

This is a fairly inexpensive BMS. They are good for 50 amps each. Each channel has a status LED. If it's lit, that channel is over charged. If it's blinking, the BMS is attempting partly discharge that channel. If it's off, you are running at less than 4.1 volts. I like them quite a bit. they work very well and are compact for the price. There are better BMS out there that do lots more stuff and cost lots more $$. This is a good inexpensive BMS. You can find them on ebay. You don't need to use all 20 channels either. So if you are building a 12S pack, just use the first 12 channels and ignore the rest. Later when you want to move on to 20S, then use the remaining channels. Be careful to get the correct version of this BMS the LIFE version looks identical. This is the LION version which also works with LIPO.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Li-ion-BMS-PCM- ... nvo8Mv9elQ

Image

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:12 am

EG: Do you charge all of your packs at once? I know you have several. Also, this BMS comes in two charge/discharge choices, I'm assuming your mean the 10A Charge/80A Discharge option.

Thanks,

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:10 am

I have the 50/50 version. And yes everything charges simultaneously. I want to have everything be as automatic and self maintaining as possible. I used to run without a BMS and found myself always needing to check that the batteries didn't get out of balance. That got tedious. I want to be able to use my ride, not maintain it all the time. A BMS helps that along.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:52 am

Here's my battery plan. I designed this paper so that when you fold it, it accurately represents the cell orientation.
Battery Plan-small.jpg

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:56 am

Thanks EG for the BMS and charger info. Also, thanks for the tips on the battery box from your thread.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:38 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:Here's my battery plan. I designed this paper so that when you fold it, it accurately represents the cell orientation.
Battery Plan-small.jpg
That few cells even with 30Qs isn't going to get you very far. I'm pretty sure you can fit more cells in your battery bay. Try to max out the space you have.

Also, I don't know where you are getting your cells from, but contact these folks. They are legit and a a lot of EV folks on ES buy from them. I have several times. You probably won't beat their prices any place else. I have no problem personally dropping $1400 if I needed to for batteries with them. They only sell legit products.

littlebear@cl-rd.cn
Shenzhen E-fire Technology Development Co.,LTD.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:12 pm

Thanks again EG.

According to my math I can fit up to 4 of these packs in the bay for a total of 24Ah, depending on where I put the controller. I will be able to get at least 3 in there no matter what. That's why I am looking at an "outrigger" pack just in case. In the end, I may go with something like what you are using just to get the range I'm looking for, or if I extend my current requirements.

Also, thank you very much for the battery source tip. I was looking around for a good source for these things. The prices are all over the place on these depending on where you get them, and I definitely don't want fakes or knock-offs.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:25 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:Thanks again EG.

According to my math I can fit up to 4 of these packs in the bay for a total of 24Ah, depending on where I put the controller. I will be able to get at least 3 in there no matter what. That's why I am looking at an "outrigger" pack just in case. In the end, I may go with something like what you are using just to get the range I'm looking for, or if I extend my current requirements.

Also, thank you very much for the battery source tip. I was looking around for a good source for these things. The prices are all over the place on these depending on where you get them, and I definitely don't want fakes or knock-offs.
Excellent! I was thinking you were building a single pack and calling it good. Yeah 3 is much better. You should consider making a single pack that contains 3X the cells if possible. I need to do a simulation myself. I have loads of 18650s...enough to fill my battery bay 2 times easily. I want to fill the battery bay with cells and then see how many I get in there and then figure out how to weld them into a single pack. I think I can get 5 or 7P despite my battery bay being partly filled already. I tend to build many smaller packs and then balance them like they are a single large pack. It works, but it adds lots of external balance cables as a result.

Outrigger pack...exactly why I did what I did over my back wheel. At 20S I just couldn't get enough Ah in the battery bay for the range I wanted. If you look in my thread, the LIPO packs I built took up 100% of the available space and got me about 20Ah. I wanted at least 2 whole days of riding between charges and that got me a day and a half. The external battery box more than doubled that range. I get 40 miles of range now and that's on 60% used laptop cells that cost me nothing. I'm absolutely certain that if I was running all new EV grade cells everywhere, I could reduce the size of the external battery box quite a lot, but would cost quite a bit.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:58 pm

BTW...did you see my Currie scooter build thread? I'm upgrading this little ride in several ways. I've pulled out the integrated controller out of the motor and rewound it for a little higher KV and a little more copper per tooth. At 48 volts that little outrunner gets me to 25mph+ with decent torque. I plan to replace it with an 80-100 outrunner. It's good for about 4000 watts max. That ought make for a small, but very fast ride. I made a new battery tray and stripped out all the wiring. It will get front, rear, side, brake and directional lights and a horn before long. The switch clusters are on order along with a thumb throttle. I also intend to replace the brakes with disk brakes after a while. When done, it won't be the slow snail it is was originally, but rather be able to out accelerate just about any car. Then it will get used as a daily rider to and from work and where ever. I should be able to easily get 40mph out of it which is crazy fast for such a small platform...should be fun! I'll have to upgrade to 219 chain and sprockets too. The existing chain is ridiculously light weight...probably good for 500 watts at most.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 35&t=83830

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:34 pm

This is another option for a charger. It costs a good bit less than the four meanwells, can be adjusted and will work with just about any input voltage. My original design was built on top of a PC power supply and ran at 48 volts. The final version delivered about 8 amps and ran at 82 volts.

This is the version made on top of a single 24 volt Meanwell power supply. I made a second one for another guy on ES. I assume he is still using it. It really needed current limiting resistors on the output, but worked fine without them. When I built my current charger, I reused the power supply so this charger doesn't exist anymore. I still have the DC-DC up converters. It delivered about 8 amps at 82 volts.
Image
Image
Image

This is the second iteration built with same low wattage DC-DC converters as the prototype and a higher wattage PC power supply. I think it topped out at 60 volts? This thing worked fine, but I used it for a couple of months before I made the better one above that could deliver lots more current and voltage and was a much cleaner build. This one delivered about 5 amps. I was also upgrading from 48 to 82 volts so I needed I higher voltage charger anyway.

Image


The original prototype on a PC power supply. 48 volts and 3 or 4 amps.

Image
Image

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:32 pm

Those chargers are amazing. I can tell a lot of work went into them to give you what you were looking for. Thanks for sharing those ideas.

I did check out the Currie scooter thread, and I agree that it should be a rocket with that little weight and that much power. The 1000 I had was just a bit smaller than my current one, but the one you have seems way smaller. I got a kick out of the extended battery box.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:48 pm

New tires (Michelin S1, 90/90-10). My new wheels aren't in yet so I put them on the factory wheels for now. The ride is wonderful.
New Tires Side.jpg
Next to the old tires:
New Tires Front.jpg
And the back, they look really cool back here:
New Tires Back.jpg

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:12 am

Those new tires look good. I deliberately got my scooter with the 10x3 tires rather than the smaller ones like yours came with. I'm using Kenda tires now. I wonder if one is better than the other. It's too bad your new wheels aren't here yet. Putting on and taking off tires on wheels this size is a royal pain.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:56 am

E-ScooterDude wrote:Those chargers are amazing. I can tell a lot of work went into them to give you what you were looking for. Thanks for sharing those ideas.

I did check out the Currie scooter thread, and I agree that it should be a rocket with that little weight and that much power. The 1000 I had was just a bit smaller than my current one, but the one you have seems way smaller. I got a kick out of the extended battery box.
From axel to axel it's 37" long. From the factory it weighed about 45 pounds. I'm obviously adding weight to it with the much larger battery box and of course the LIPO pack weighs much less than the 3 SLAs it used to run on so I'm still pretty close to the factory weight so far.

With the factory motor which originally ran at 36 volts, running at 48 volts it did 25+ mph. With the 80-100...who knows.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:52 pm

EG: I will report whether these tires wear well and how they do under adverse conditions (limited off-road). I use Michelin's on my E-Bike and they are fantastic so I was naturally interested in them. Also, they were the exact size I was looking for.

Two more questions for you EG:
1. With your current power setup, what would you say is the MAX Amps you pull, even for a short max power run? Also, what would you say is your continuous Amp draw?
2. When you order from a Chinese merchant (through Alibaba, AliExpress, etc) do you get overseas or air freight shipping?

Thanks,

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:16 am

E-ScooterDude wrote:EG: I will report whether these tires wear well and how they do under adverse conditions (limited off-road). I use Michelin's on my E-Bike and they are fantastic so I was naturally interested in them. Also, they were the exact size I was looking for.

Two more questions for you EG:
1. With your current power setup, what would you say is the MAX Amps you pull, even for a short max power run? Also, what would you say is your continuous Amp draw?
2. When you order from a Chinese merchant (through Alibaba, AliExpress, etc) do you get overseas or air freight shipping?

Thanks,
1. When I was running at 48 volts, I would draw a max of about 80 amps. Now that I'm running at 82 volts the most I ever draw is 60 amps and normally on level ground going full out I pull 40 amps. I also have phase current limiting set to 75% since more phase current doesn't make the motor pull harder, just gets hotter. The only way I can get more out of the motor is with more voltage.
2. I go with whatever shipping method is cheapest and includes tracking. It's shipping from China so it's not going to be cheap no matter what route you go with. Anyway, I'm OK with buying from China as long as I can see the package coming my way. If you ever want to return something, It's going to cost a lot more than it did to ship to you. So basically, whatever you buy, it's yours...regardless of the warranty.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:30 am

Thanks EG.

This whole buying from China thing is coming together, and there does seem to be a technique to it.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:39 am

E-ScooterDude wrote:Thanks EG.

This whole buying from China thing is coming together, and there does seem to be a technique to it.
It's crazy how simple stuff like communicating clearly makes a huge diffrence. Sometimes you have to ask the same question multiple times to get a straight answer. I'm not afraid to ask over and over until I find out what I want to know. It's irritating at times and can feel like they are hiding something, but most of the time it's just misunderstanding.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:53 pm

Well folks, I’ve been out of town for the last few weeks and I ordered a ton of stuff before I left. Most of it is in, even some of the direct from China stuff, but not the batteries yet. I’ve been checking the status from the carrier website (FedEx) and they are probably going to be delivered today or tomorrow. It did take a few weeks for the carrier to get them out of China, and when I asked the vendor he reminded me that this is a busy time for all techie vendors shipping stuff to the US.

I got 160 of the 18650 Samsung 30Q. The (new) battery plan is to build two of the 20S4P packs, and I’ll post my battery plan next week. After considering the cost of the BMS I decided I didn’t want 4 of them, even though I really like the modularity of several smaller packs, the two packs are more practical. One big pack doesn’t appeal to me, but I may change my mind (again).

I’m really looking forward to the build-out of the batteries, plus the addition of my other goodies.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:42 pm

So here's the new battery plan, along with the corresponding balance wire connections for the BMS.
IMG_7408.JPG
Here's the raw battery pack:
IMG_7404.JPG
IMG_7404.JPG (146.42 KiB) Viewed 2299 times
Oh Baby!

Whatever I learn from this first one I'll apply to the next.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:07 pm

I had been riding my “stock” 48V SLA around and it’s been a good time. The hill climbing ability was very weak but the top speed was not bad at all at 30+ mph.

In January I built the 20S4P 12Ah battery and installed the 8 AWG wiring and the Kelly controller. I'm glad I have followed the advice of ElectricGod and others as it has all been right on.

I did my own thing regarding the battery pack however; I made it fully assemble-able/disassemble-able. I didn’t go with the spot welding and I am glad I didn’t because I decided not to use two smaller batteries and instead opted for one large one, so I had to disassemble the 12Ah test battery.
Top.jpg
Bottom.jpg
Finished.jpg
There is enough space for a 20S8P but that involved more compromises in the arrangement of the battery box than I was comfortable with, so I opted for a 20S7P with a 20S2P reserve battery in a storage pouch behind the seat.

The testing was a lot of fun and I was very impressed with the Samsung 30Q batteries and the controller. The Kelly Controller is extremely configurable and I was able to dial-in the throttle mapping to my taste. The torque and speed are most impressive and I now have no trouble with hills, keeping up with traffic, or really anything else.
Testing.jpg
I’m still building out the 20S7P and, like most of the time, I’m awaiting parts. Amazon and EBay don’t always move at my pace (without paying substantially more for shipping) but I’m thankful that I can find most of what I want there. The rest I have to improvise with off the shelf items from Home Depot, etc.
I still have a few items on my to-do list: upgrade drive system and change ratio, install Cycle Analyst, and install hydraulic brakes.

So: the goals that I set out at the onset are:
1. At least 20 miles range averaging 25-30 mph.
2. 40+ mph top speed.
3. No less than 25 mph going up the steepest hills in my area.
4. Keep costs reasonable.

Item 1, I could get 10-12 miles in my hilly area on the 12Ah test battery from 82V charge down to 65V discharge. Getting 20+ miles on the 21Ah full size battery should be no problem.
Item 2, I hit 38 mph on the test battery so I’m expecting 40 + with the big battery and new gear ratio. The small battery actually performed very well for its size and the recovery from a big discharge was very quick. V Sag was reasonable at around 10%.
Item 3 was proven during testing and I could still accelerate all the way to the top of my biggest hills going faster than 25 mph.
Item 4 is still pretty good but there were a lot of odd miscellaneous parts to buy to make all this happen and the nickel and dime costs were significant, but the performance is really stellar.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:07 pm

I have finished the big 20S7P battery and the testing went very well. The construction is identical to the small 12Ah battery. The V Sag is reduced to about half and the calculated range in my area should be very good at around 25 miles. I get the impression that I should get around 30 on flat ground, depending on speed. I keep averaging around 22-23.
Big Finished.jpg
Top speed and torque are exactly the same, which was a little bit of a surprise since I thought the small battery was strained a bit at full power, but not one mph was gained with the big battery. I’ll have to rely on the gear ratio to get me a few more mph.

I want to really test it on range this week, 25 miles is a calculation based on what I get at higher voltages (between 73 to 80 V) and lower voltages (between 65 to 72 V). Of course, the best range is in the higher V’s but it’s still respectable with the lower voltage. The small battery had a more noticeable range difference between high and low.

The other performance specs remain about the same as with the small battery and also runs very cool, but it does seem to recover a little quicker.

I am having a new problem however; the BOMA is running a bit hot. No surprise since I’m overdriving a 48V motor and I’m goosing the throttle quite a bit and live in a very hilly area. I already have my controller limiting the phase amps to around 48 so I can’t go much lower or performance will suffer too much for my liking.

My intention was to run this setup until I encountered limitations, and then fix them where possible. The motor is the one thing that I knew would strain a bit under the new battery. ElectricGod has used these BOMAs with the same success and limitations that I am seeing. I’m happy with the performance right now so I don’t really want to upgrade the motor just yet. I’m thinking about my next steps.
1. Open the ventilation ports as much as possible. They are really small and not much air gets through.
2. Run some forced air (I’ll have to try a few ideas I have here and try what others have done).
I’m considering a 60V BOMA because it will fit nicely in the space I currently have for a motor and I believe the performance should be to my liking. The LightningRods big block seems like a wonderful motor, but it’s very large and a number of things would have to be changed and fabricated to make it fit.

I’m treating the battery/controller phase of the overall project as done. I still have to build my reserve battery but I’m awaiting parts (again) and don’t have an immediate need.

My Cycle Analyst is coming this week, and I want to run the throttle through it so my wiring is going to see some changes. I’m also making some changes to the brake wiring as well with a tap off into the CA. The shunt is already in place and I’m looking forward to compiling data on how the battery is performing. My little Voltmeter has been doing a fine job but it’s time for more sophistication.

My #219 drive system is coming in as well. I haven’t had a single problem with the t8f but it’s really noisy and I’m always a little nervous about breaking the chain. The 219 system will also be my first foray into ratio experimentation.

I haven’t even ordered the hydraulic brakes yet, but that’s probably going to be done in the next month or so.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by Ianhill » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:27 pm

I manage to push my scooter to 48mph on the flat with stock gearing but it's screaming away no problem with heat mind I've hit the sweet spot 16s 3.7kw sensorless topend and it will hold my weight flat out for a full discharge of a 16ah.
The T8f I find needs a clean and light greasing every other ride or 50miles or so i snapped one link the other day 2 miles from home all uphill, it was squealing it was so dry being silly i give it the beans and it give out, i swapped the snapped link cleaned it all up with wd40 then lithium greased it done a ride of 30 mile yest and today no problem.

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Post by E-ScooterDude » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:05 am

Thanks IanHill, I'm still looking for that sweet spot and 48 seems very fast. Your Faggio is very impressive.

I suspect I'll end up there but right now for me, it's all about the motor and gearing since the battery is dialed in.

Lots more experimenting to do.

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