My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby Ianhill » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:17 pm

From my experience I'd say at 20s gear it 6-1 with your large tyre and feed the motor around 60 amps and it should be popping along nicely.
Had an issue with my motor in the rain the phase wires are by the vent and bunched so when wet anything over 2kw and I was sending a big spark and a boof out the vent caps easy fix mind just poor assembly better sleeving and fan the phase term wires out.
The scooter side of this forum seems to have crashed and burned it's super quiet lately.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:52 pm

Thanks IanHIll

It's funny you mention 6:1 because that is exactly where I am starting my experimentation.

60A would probably cook my 1.6KW rated motor, so I'll have to keep it around 50 for now, at least until I open it up and vent it much better. Even then, I'm not sure it's going to last. Big vent holes and forced ventilation are now required, so I will try those before upgrading. I sure do like that motor though.

I'm guessing the slow board activity is because of the weather. I myself am very much looking forward to lots of summer fun this year with this scooter.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby Ianhill » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:20 pm

Seems you got it all covered, nice build you got there it should get you past 45mph no problem which is plenty on a stand up I'd like to go faster but I don't think it would be to wise on my frame I have 6.5 wheels with 10mm axles and cheap bearings so I think I've pushed hard enough I don't want a catastrophic failure at 60mph or so standing up.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:44 pm

So, I’m going straight for the LightningRods Big Block motor. I’m getting the #219 parts together and should be going with a whole new drivetrain in the next week or so. I’m also going with the Honda Z50 rims so I can get the regen as well as a big step up in quality and stability.

I did some long trips this past weekend and got some truly epic range. For the first one I was mostly on bike paths and flat ground and my speed was pretty slow, around 20 mph max. I went 32 miles and still had about 4-6 miles remaining (calculated). For my second one it was uphill for 7 miles and then 7 back down plus another hilly trip for the next 8. I still had some Ah’s left over but it was a bit closer to the max with maybe 3-5 miles remaining.

I also got the Cycle Analyst going and it’s a fine piece of equipment. I found that I’m drawing quite a bit of current getting up the hills in my area, no surprise really, but now it’s quantified vs. suspected.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Everything came in and the work is done: new wheels, motor, and drivetrain.
New Wheels and Motor.jpg

New Wheels-Front.jpg


First impressions are the amazing torque of this motor and the quality of the wheels. This is basically a clone of ElectricGod’s setup and I’m glad I followed his lead.

The LightningRods Big Block motor is high quality and high performance for the size and price. I can’t say enough about it because it exceeded my already high expectations. I had a 6:1 ratio and now I’m using a 3.3:1 with no problems at all. I’m still amazed I could take such a big leap in ratio but that motor pulls at any speed, up any hill, without any problem. It also sheds the heat pretty well and extended high speed runs are no problem either. I don’t have a temp probe on it yet, but I can hold my fingers on it for several seconds after a high power run.

The wheels were also pretty affordable IMO even if the shipping was a bit high. The wheels and hubs are beautifully machined and very nice to look at. They are true and there is no wobble all the way to 50 mph. I was able to go tubeless, which was impossible with the old wheels.

Regen is great. I’ve got it setup pretty well but there is more tweaking to do on this.

The drive train which was also furnished by LightningRods is first class. Everything fits beautifully and the quality is the best. The DID #219 chain (also from LightningRods) is a high quality part as well. This new setup is very quiet compared to the t8f. After some initial break-in, the chain doesn’t seem to stretch much at all, even though I’ve been heavily on the throttle and up some major hills for about 80+ miles over the weekend.

I’ve still got a few things to do:
1. Get all of the lights and horn working again, I’m also going to use turn signals as well. I have the DC-DC converter but I had the wheel and motor project ahead of it.
2. New wooden deck. I’ll make this myself and I’m looking forward to doing it in maple.
3. Hydraulic brakes. I like some that are for mountain bikes so I’m investigating those. I like the very small lines that can be easily concealed.
4. Front and rear fenders. I’m not sure how these will work out, but I have some I purchased on EBay and they look pretty cool.
5. Auxiliary battery. I have the cells and I’m putting it together now. When I’m done I will effectively have a 20S10P. I’ve been getting 30 – 35 miles, in my hilly area, on each full charge (the regen does help), but I can see myself wanting to go much further.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby LightningRods » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:53 pm

Thank you for the kind comments. I really appreciate them. Have fun with your scooter! Your 60t #219 and kart sprocket adapter will be coming from my next laser cut order.
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:40 am

This scooter looks great. I'm glad you could learn from my experiments and just do it right the first time. Those wheels are seriously sexy! Mine are like yours...pretty well balanced and definetly properly round and true. I got mine pretty late in the project. You know how the factory wheels are...crap. You should have no problem with my gear ratio. Mine is still purring along nicely. Consider making a back deck so you can haul some stuff over the back wheel. I don't have a front wheel fender and honestly you don't need one. The back wheel however WILL spray water even with that little plastic wheel cover up your back.

Get moped brakes calipers. Bike brakes are too light weight. The brakes won't last long. My moped hydraulic calipers have never given me any issues and the actual disks that fit those wheels are a bit thicker than what typical bike rotors are. You may not be able to get the bike brake calipers over the thicker rotor.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:31 am

Thanks EG, you make a good point about the applicability of the moped brakes vs bicycle brakes. The new fenders would be for style and functionality. I've placed them both on the bike temporarily and they look pretty good, and the rear fender would provide way more coverage than the existing shorty fender. I'll post another picture if it comes to it.

Right now it seems to be a question of mounting and making them look right. There will be a "flat spot" on top of the rear fender I was considering for a brake light and turn signal cluster. I am currently using a Topeak bicycle pack just behind the seat and mounted to the seat post that works great, but looks a little odd because the angle of the bracket is a bit off. That has been my storage for tools and emergency parts.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:17 pm

You've probably removed the rear wheel cover. There's those two welded brackets making a cage around the motor. I cut them off of my scooter and made my own that bolt on. The welds on my brackets were cracking anyway and one of them had already broken off. With my current setup over the back wheel, I could add a hitch if I wanted for pulling a small trailer. If you're going to put a fender over the rear wheel, then you might as well cut those silly brackets off and then shape some aluminum that fits the fender.

About brakes...
You want brakes that can lock up your wheels without having to really crank on the levers. These scooters are pretty heavy and then add your weight and you have several hundred pounds of momentum to slow down. I started with the factory mechanical brakes and they were OK for the factory build, but not great and they couldn't come close to locking up the wheels. I then swapped them out for hydraulic brakes that used the same pads. They worked better, but those tiny brake pads just couldn't hold up to the added braking forces that the hydraulics could create. The back caliper failed within 2 months of installation. The front one got replaced with a moped dual cylinder caliper within a month of installing the smaller hydraulic caliper. It didn't take long to realize that those little brakes just were not going to be good enough. Now I have dual cylinder moped calipers front and back and they are strong enough to lock both wheels which means now I have maximum braking that's possible. There have been a couple of times that I have needed them too. People don't always see you and just pull out so it's up to you to be the wary rider. If I had the original or the small hydraulic brakes, I would not have been able to stop in time to avoid a collision. Bike brake lines ought to work well. I have a complete kit of lines and adapters to make the brake lines work with moped calipers. I intended to use them on my scooter, but the the larger moepd lines I am currently using have worked well so I never switched over. Perhaps on my next build I will use those bike lines.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:21 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:Thanks EG, you make a good point about the applicability of the moped brakes vs bicycle brakes. The new fenders would be for style and functionality. I've placed them both on the bike temporarily and they look pretty good, and the rear fender would provide way more coverage than the existing shorty fender. I'll post another picture if it comes to it.

Right now it seems to be a question of mounting and making them look right. There will be a "flat spot" on top of the rear fender I was considering for a brake light and turn signal cluster. I am currently using a Topeak bicycle pack just behind the seat and mounted to the seat post that works great, but looks a little odd because the angle of the bracket is a bit off. That has been my storage for tools and emergency parts.


BTW...your build is much prettier and neat than mine is. This scooter turned out looking really nice. You almost can't tell that anything is not factory. Do you have a pic of inside your battery bay?

Do you have any pics of your motor bracket?
Last edited by ElectricGod on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 pm

Thanks EG. I should have taken a picture of the bracket. It looks a lot like yours. I measured everything as well as I could because I wanted to make sure I left enough room for the suspension and tires, and it's very tight.
I'll post a pic of the battery box soon, I'm traveling right now. I tried to make sure it was very clean because I wanted to stuff a lot of batteries in there without rearranging too much.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby Ianhill » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:21 pm

Major thing these scooters need is a front suspension fork it would transform the ride mine is harsh on the front no movement at all if I dial any in its so slack it's moving side to side as well as up and down very poor design.

ElectricGod wrote:
About brakes ......




I totally agree with the moped calipers for your build, they are a life saver there's alot of weight to bring to a stop specially when it's in motion 40mph plus, I stuck with mtb hydraulics because swapping the lead acid out to 16's lipo made it a fair bit lighter it's 35kg on the nose with all my upgrades and manages to endo with the braking power.
My razor e300 was 24kg if I can remember correct, it was so light that it was hard to stop with out skidding or nose wheeling it was fun mind sounded like a car skidding, proper loud grab people's attention what's that waiting for a crash.
Last edited by Ianhill on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:01 pm

Ianhill wrote:Major thing these scooters need is a front suspension fork it would transform the ride mine is harsh on the front no movement at all if I dial any in its so slack it's moving side to side as well as up and down very poor design.

ElectricGod wrote:
About brakes ......




I totally agree with the moped calipers for your build, they are a life saver there's alot of weight to bring to a stop specially when it's in motion 40mph plus, I stuck with mtb hydraulics because swapping the lead acid out to 16's lipo made it a fair bit lighter it's 35kg on the nose with all my upgrades and manages to endo with the braking power.
My razor e300 was 24kg if I can remember correct, it was so light that it was hard to stop with out skidding or nose wheeling it was fun mind sounded like a car skidding, proper loud grab people's attention what's that waiting for a crash.


I don't know about this scooter if the front shock has been improved or not. Mine... the front shock was too light and there is limited travel before the front tire impacts the steering tube. I found a beefier shock to put on the front. The original shock just going up sloped entrances to drive ways was enough to bottom out the suspension.

MTB is bike calipers right? I seriously doubt you could fit the thickness of our rotors in them.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
E-Bike XB-502 (Moped) conversion project
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby Ianhill » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:23 pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Ianhill wrote:Major thing these scooters need is a front suspension fork it would transform the ride mine is harsh on the front no movement at all if I dial any in its so slack it's moving side to side as well as up and down very poor design.

ElectricGod wrote:
About brakes ......




I totally agree with the moped calipers for your build, they are a life saver there's alot of weight to bring to a stop specially when it's in motion 40mph plus, I stuck with mtb hydraulics because swapping the lead acid out to 16's lipo made it a fair bit lighter it's 35kg on the nose with all my upgrades and manages to endo with the braking power.
My razor e300 was 24kg if I can remember correct, it was so light that it was hard to stop with out skidding or nose wheeling it was fun mind sounded like a car skidding, proper loud grab people's attention what's that waiting for a crash.


I don't know about this scooter if the front shock has been improved or not. Mine... the front shock was too light and there is limited travel before the front tire impacts the steering tube. I found a beefier shock to put on the front. The original shock just going up sloped entrances to drive ways was enough to bottom out the suspension.

MTB is bike calipers right? I seriously doubt you could fit the thickness of our rotors in them.


My suspension has no movement no slackness at all its has to be different to yours.

My original brakes where a 140mm Mtb (mountain bike) rotor with cable operated caliper that just moved a signal pistons and push on the disc and bends it to the other solid mounted pad and they where only bout the size of a 5 pence piece Chinese to the max.
I swapped them out for 160mm rotor on the front 140mm rear, The hydraulic calipers have oposing pistons with much bigger pads so they don't bend the disc to stop.

I used the originals at 12s lipo and they were shite, did not stop well but rubbed the disc all the time and warped them too, after swapping it rolls really well when my weights on it you swear it has freewheel very little cogging being a low pole count inrunner and zero brake rubbing going on a burst to flat out keeps you rolling for some time and it's good for overall range too, I tend to keep the tyres quiet hard for this reason.

Another good point I use sintered pads so I get a decent life span still on my first set, there's many different formulas for mtb pads shapes and sizes but I find it best to get a decent quality pad, I've been using ebc gold pads and there's no squeal, it's got good stopping power wet or dry and have exceptional lifetime they cost a little extra but worth it.
Last edited by Ianhill on Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:00 pm

Here's the battery box:
Battery Box.JPG

Clean as a bean (except the dust and grit, I haven't sealed it yet).
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:21 pm

Sorry EG, I didn't respond to your "about brakes" post.

You are correct that I cannot lock both brakes right now. I can haul it down from high speed pretty quickly but there is a lot of room for improvement.

I see some wonderful and seemingly very slick hydraulic brakes for bikes and I was hoping to adapt them to my needs. The width of my brake disks relative to the cycle disks may be an issue because they look about 1.5-2mm and my disks are 3mm. I was able to adapt the existing mechanical calipers to the 3mm disks through fabricated spacers and longer bolts. I paid particular attention to the stresses placed on the caliper because of this and I'm happy with what I came up with.

Whether the bicycle hydraulic parts are heavy duty enough is a good point and I'll probably go with the two cylinder moped brakes but with the tiny bicycle lines. I'm looking at parts right now so I'll know pretty soon.

Thanks again for your advice: Safe stopping is very important.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:30 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:Here's the battery box:
Battery Box.JPG

Clean as a bean (except the dust and grit, I haven't sealed it yet).


That whole empty bay gets batteries in it? I taped up those holes in the bottom too. There's no reason for them. You crammed a lot of stuff inside the nose section of the battery box! My battery box isn't quite like this now, but it's close. And the noise section is crammed with stuff...DC-DC converter, mosfet switch, wiring block, various other things...

Image
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:59 pm

Yeah, it all had to go up front and that's why I settled on the 7P vs the 8P that I wanted. The stuff in the front could not move forward at all.

On brakes, do you like the caliper that is in the front of your bike, or the one that is in the back better? I have found both styles and I can get the one you have in the back in both front and back types. I'm assuming the pads are cheap and available.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:29 am

E-ScooterDude wrote:Yeah, it all had to go up front and that's why I settled on the 7P vs the 8P that I wanted. The stuff in the front could not move forward at all.

On brakes, do you like the caliper that is in the front of your bike, or the one that is in the back better? I have found both styles and I can get the one you have in the back in both front and back types. I'm assuming the pads are cheap and available.


If you can get a brake that will mount to the original slots on the front fork, that would be the only thing I would have liked to do differently. I couldn't find one. The front and back calipers are essentially the same thing, but the brackets that they came with made mounting them much easier. I had to drill a couple of holes in the front forks to mount the caliper, but otherwise, it was a perfect fit. The spacing was dead center over the rotor. The front caliper is very straight forward. Drill two appropriately placed holes in the fork and mount the caliper. BTW...this caliper was advertised as a rear caliper, not a front, but that was for whatever the caliper was originally made for. Obviously it doesn't matter as long as it fits.

Image

The back brake took a bit more effort. The rotor on the back hub sits a bit closer to the rim or the caliper is a bit thicker. I had to put spacers under the rotor to pull it away from the hub a little. I used 3 identical nuts and 9 washers to space the rotor away a little. Without them I couldn't get the rotor inside the caliper. There was plenty of length in the 8mm bolts that hold the rotor so I wasn't worried about tearing out of the aluminum threads in the hub. A little locktite on each bolt keeps them from coming loose on their own. The caliper was too close to the frame so I added spacers to shift the caliper inwards and centered over the rotor. I found some 12mm ID axle spacers on ebay that I cut to the correct length, but I could just as easily have used several nuts and washers to get the spacing right. I initially did set up the spacing with nuts and washers and then used them to to cut the axle spacers to the same length. The threaded bolt holes on the adapter bracket on the caliper were conveniently spaced to need only one bolt hole. The back bolt sits in the very front of the left side rear drop-out. It meant that the tensioner on that side had to get the end of it cut off. If you are using the factory tensioners, that won't be a problem since they fit right under the axle nut or bolt head. Using the front of the drop out was exactly the right location to center the brake pads over the gripping surface of the rotor. The front bolt is in the very back of the front elongated slot used by the original brakes. It has worked reliably since I set it up that way.

Image
Image

In this picture you can see the nut and washers under each bolt holding the rotor on. Also, notice the brake pads. They have not worn at all. Those micro small brake pads on the factory brakes wore out super fast. These ones show no evidence of wearing out. However they are easily found on ebay and elsewhere. They are standard moped brake pads.

Image
Last edited by ElectricGod on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 3 times in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:27 am

Thanks EG, I appreciate all of the pictures and info. I was able to find front and rear in both of the different styles you have, but couldn't tell which was better suited to our bikes. It seems the "Huating" caliper is more compact. I assume the contact area for the pads is basically the same, and I'm glad that the pads will last so long.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:34 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:Thanks EG, I appreciate all of the pictures and info. I was able to find front and rear in both of the different styles you have, but couldn't tell which was better suited to our bikes. It seems the "Huating" caliper is more compact. I assume the contact area for the pads is basically the same, and I'm glad that the pads will last so long.


They have the same pads. Those two set screws right by the pistons trap the pads. The same pads work in left or right hand calipers..from the perspective of that horn like thing. Post where you got the brakes. I need to buy more for my moped project.

BTW...I ride summer and winter. As long as the roads and trails are clear enough of ice and snow that I can. These brakes have been in place for a good while and still going strong. The front caliper has been in place since June of 2016 and the back since August of 2016. There is no evidence that they are going to quit. I had a leak in a break line...don't know why it leaked , but it was very slowly leaking brake fluid in a non-wear location through the side of the line. It would take about 2 months before the tiny reservoir would empty out.

Have you ever set up hydraulic brakes? They are a bit of a pain to get bled out. It just takes some patience and a good bit of brake fluid that you recycle over and over. I use a 100CC syringe to put brake fluid in the reservoir. Pouring tends to spill a lot. Brake fluid eats paint so you want to NOT spill.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:07 pm

I've bled hydraulic brakes on cars and motorcycles, and it is a pain. Do you have a preference between your front and rear calipers?

Here's the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-UTV-Brak ... 1284823319
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby ElectricGod » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:31 pm

E-ScooterDude wrote:I've bled hydraulic brakes on cars and motorcycles, and it is a pain. Do you have a preference between your front and rear calipers?

Here's the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-UTV-Brak ... 1284823319


They look like the right calipers, but the brackets are wrong. I suppose if you make new adapter brackets that actually fit those elongated slots, then you are good to go.
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby E-ScooterDude » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:25 pm

I was planning on making my own brackets from .25" aluminum, that way I can get exactly what I want. So, do you like this type or the "Huating" type of caliper?
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Re: My E-Scooter Upgrade Project

Postby Ianhill » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:53 pm

They look like IS standard fitting
Check IS disc brake mount.

With a bit of work swapping bits thicker discs etc they should drop on a downhill mountain bike.
Last edited by Ianhill on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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