more powerful brushed controller

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
Post Reply
ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 07 2018 1:22pm

I am looking for a more powerful brushed controller and stumbled across this kelly controller

http://kellycontroller.com/kds48100e100 ... p-285.html

Does anyone have experience with this or similar controller? if so is its rated spec trustworthy?

If not can anyone else recommend a similar spec/price brushed controller of 48v 100a, or maybe even a 48v 50a?

Thanks

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 07 2018 2:08pm

Kelly controllers have a good track record. They tend to rate their controllers based on output current rather than input current, so what you measure at the battery may be lower when running less than 100% duty cycle.

If you are really cheap, look for a YK43 controller. Most of these have no current limiting so you can get some good acceleration. These are poorly constructed but seem to hold up well despite that.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 07 2018 2:25pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 07 2018 2:08pm
If you are really cheap, look for a YK43 controller.

Thank you! thats reassuring I might give the Kelly a try then!

are the yk controllers yi-yun? I tried a 1000w one but it did not last long, maybe half an hour, but I only bought it to test to see if my unknown motor was even powerful enough to lug me around, which it was but now thinking I need 2-3000w

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 08 2018 8:29am

The Kelly is much higher quality than the Yi-Yun units. The lack of current limiting on the YK43 is probably why it blew up. It works OK if your pack voltage is low enough or the motor resistance is high enough so that limits the current to something in the survival range.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 19 2018 1:29am

So I received a Kelly KDS Mini Brushed Motor Controller the other day and began mocking up the wiring for a test run but have had no luck getting it to work :cry:

If any one has used this controller http://kellycontroller.com/kds48100e100 ... p-285.html
I would love to hear some advice, it is very basic to wire up yet I am having no luck powering the motor or being able to get the led to work to see the led error codes.


Also should the 5v power source for the throttle constantly be putting out 5v? as when i tested the output voltage I got nothing..
The controller description says it works with 0-5v and 1-4v hall throttles and I am using the 1-4v

Again complete noob here so any suggestions would be great Thanks!!

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 19 2018 8:20am

On the Kelly web site, you can download the manuals and wiring diagrams.

Here is a (fuzzy and shrunken) copy of the wiring diagram:
KDS Controller Wiring.JPG
KDS Controller Wiring.JPG (76.44 KiB) Viewed 674 times
It sounds like you don't have any power on the ignition line, which is the small red wire coming out of the controller. You should have pack voltage on that wire to power up the controller. Once the controller has power, the 5v going to the throttle should be always present and you should see the LED do something.

On small systems, it is common to not use a contactor and just wire the battery straight to the B+ terminal on the controller. The contactor could be replaced with a circuit breaker made for solar systems. The contactor is not a bad idea though, as when a controller like this blows, your motor gets stuck on full power and the contactor will stop the motor.

The diagram also shows a switch on the throttle, which is supposed to open the contactor whenever you let off the throttle. You may need to use a jumper to complete that circuit so it is on all the time.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 19 2018 12:17pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 19 2018 8:20am

It sounds like you don't have any power on the ignition line, which is the small red wire coming out of the controller. You should have pack voltage on that wire to power up the controller. Once the controller has power, the 5v going to the throttle should be always present and you should see the LED do something.
d to open the contactor whenever you let off the throttle. You may need to use a jumper to complete that circuit so it is on all the time.
Thank you very much! I haven't tried this yet but sounds like it could be my problem! As I'm wiring this as basic as possible, can I just run a wire from the B+ terminal directly to the red PWR (9) pin permanently? or something like in my crude paint drawing here? haha :lol:
kelly wiring2correct.png
kelly wiring2correct.png (197.06 KiB) Viewed 663 times

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 19 2018 2:21pm

Yes, that's what I would try. Your drawing looks correct. You need a small switch for the ignition line (usually on the handlebars)
If not using a contactor, I think the throttle switch may not be needed or at least could just be a jumper.
I would use a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere in series with the battery.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 19 2018 6:16pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 19 2018 2:21pm
I would use a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere in series with the battery.
Thank you so much for the help really appreciated!
Got it working now it was only that red power line :D :D

Would a breaker like this be ideal? https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/382239545356?c ... 426&crdt=0

If my controllers rated at 50v 100a do I want one rated to that power too?

Many thanks again! :D

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 19 2018 9:49pm

That breaker looks like it should be OK. It also can double as a main power switch. If the controller takes more than the breaker rating, the breaker might trip when you don't want it to. You really only want it to trip when something shorts out. They can usually take a little over their rating for short bursts without tripping.


So... what is this controller going on?
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 20 2018 3:56am

fechter wrote:
Jun 19 2018 9:49pm
That breaker looks like it should be OK. It also can double as a main power switch. If the controller takes more than the breaker rating, the breaker might trip when you don't want it to. You really only want it to trip when something shorts out. They can usually take a little over their rating for short bursts without tripping.


So... what is this controller going on?
Thanks that's good to hear i will pick one up soon!

So I wanted a bike to get across fields/campsites (battling my mates other toys) etc and had to be very small to go in the camper van and had this old mini dirt bike chassis buried at the bottom of the shed and two of these old but hardly used brushed motors, I think they might be out of golf caddies and I presume the small ride on ones as I couldn't imagine motors of this size needed just to lug around some clubs but I could be wrong!

Any way the motors had a massive reduction drive on them something like 50-1 but I never though they were use able as the motors say 156 rpm at 24v which I always thought was ridiculously low rpm but I think now that it was just the rpm after being reduced.

So I picked up a cheap yiyun to see if one motor would pull me around and sure enough it does! however I have no idea of the rpm direct from the motor. I have tried running at 48v which is getting the motor pretty hot (the controller is coool) and cannot reduce my gearing any more unless i have a custom sprocket made with or another reduction drive which I cant really be bothered with although is probably the best option.

Only other thing I can think is reduce the voltage so it doesn't get hot but sacrifice top speed (which im really not concerned about as it goes way tooo quick! probably around 30-35mph and on this tiny thing is pretty hairy! Only thing is reducing the voltage doesn't help with the acceleration and climbing ability like a lower gear would.

sooo.... Im now wondering should I just run both motors in parallel? :lol: I may as well make use of them haha then it would have some great low end pull on 6s or crazy scary fun on 12s??


Any suggestions let me know!

IMAG0899resize.jpg
resize.jpg

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 20 2018 8:06am

It's possible to simply limit the throttle so you never get more than 50%. This would be about the same as reducing the system voltage.

If the motor is getting hot and you're going faster than you need, then lower gearing is really the best solution. A different motor would be another one.

If you can find a way to mount two motors, you would have the option of switching the motors from series to parallel. With two motors in series, each one will see half the voltage, so might work out for your gearing setup. If you switch to parallel, it would be racing mode.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 20 2018 10:01pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 20 2018 8:06am
It's possible to simply limit the throttle so you never get more than 50%. This would be about the same as reducing the system voltage.

If the motor is getting hot and you're going faster than you need, then lower gearing is really the best solution. A different motor would be another one.

If you can find a way to mount two motors, you would have the option of switching the motors from series to parallel. With two motors in series, each one will see half the voltage, so might work out for your gearing setup. If you switch to parallel, it would be racing mode.


I really wish I could find a larger rear sprocket the 64 tooth was the largest I could find and already 11 on the front is as small as I can go :(


I think I can mount two motors relatively easy, probably much easier and simpler than making a reduction unit, I was thinking of running then parallel and just switching the batteries from 6s to 12s depending on how much fun I want, Or maybe even splitting my lipos and making 8 or 10s packs instead maybe.


Thanks again!

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 20 2018 11:24pm

It would probably work better to keep the battery the same and switch the motors from series to parallel. I used to have a twin motor RC truck where I did this. I ran it in series most of the time. In parallel it was too fast to control. Having two motors in series gives you double the torque for the same amount of current and the motors will top out at half the speed.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 21 2018 12:37am

fechter wrote:
Jun 20 2018 11:24pm
It would probably work better to keep the battery the same and switch the motors from series to parallel. I used to have a twin motor RC truck where I did this. I ran it in series most of the time. In parallel it was too fast to control. Having two motors in series gives you double the torque for the same amount of current and the motors will top out at half the speed.
Thats a good point actually I think I will run the motors in series and just make a separate harness to quickly swap them to parallel if I want too.. which reminds me I need to get some more silicone wire and xt90s etc.

Can you recommend a wire gauge suitable for this setup/controller? I know its a broad question regarding this hobble cobbled contraption :lol: would something like 8 or 6 awg be suitable? around 4mm core I'd rather it be slightly over rated but even 4mm seems small to be but im clueless!



Another random question out of sheer interest, very unlikely to be done but can old motors like the ones im using or brushed motors in general be modified with newer neodymium magnets for more power? I'm guessing the magnets would cost quite a lot if you could even find the perfect ones to fit but would be interesting if possible!


cheers :D

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 21 2018 8:13am

Even 10ga will handle that much current but using a slightly heavier wire won't hurt.

I've actually replaced the magnets in a brushed motor before. It was very hard to find the right shaped magnets and I had to grind them a little to make them fit. With the same windings, it ran about 1/2 the speed it used to due to the higher magnetic flux. I later rewound the armature with fewer turns to get it back up to where I wanted it. It was way too much work.

Which reminds me, if your motor is using ceramic magnets, you need to be careful not to apply too much current or you can demagnetize the magnets. This happens in an instant, so some kind of current limiting is good. This never happens with Neodymium magnets. On the other hand, ceramic magnets can handle much higher temperatures.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 21 2018 4:44pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 21 2018 8:13am
Even 10ga will handle that much current but using a slightly heavier wire won't hurt.

I've actually replaced the magnets in a brushed motor before. It was very hard to find the right shaped magnets and I had to grind them a little to make them fit. With the same windings, it ran about 1/2 the speed it used to due to the higher magnetic flux. I later rewound the armature with fewer turns to get it back up to where I wanted it. It was way too much work.

Which reminds me, if your motor is using ceramic magnets, you need to be careful not to apply too much current or you can demagnetize the magnets. This happens in an instant, so some kind of current limiting is good. This never happens with Neodymium magnets. On the other hand, ceramic magnets can handle much higher temperatures.
Ah! that's good to hear I would have definitely over done it there lol


I thought it wouldn't be easy but sucks if it needs a rewind as well :shock:

The motors are ceramic magnets, to clarify is it just the heat which can demagnetise them or can too much current even if its still cool still demagnetise?

Thanks

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12913
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by fechter » Jun 21 2018 11:34pm

Heat will demagnetize a Neodymium magnet, but not over current.

A ceramic magnet can be demagnetized by over current even when cold. I assume they demag easier at higher temps but that is generally not the problem.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

ZERONEST   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 01 2016 8:34am

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by ZERONEST » Jun 22 2018 2:50am

fechter wrote:
Jun 21 2018 11:34pm
Heat will demagnetize a Neodymium magnet, but not over current.

A ceramic magnet can be demagnetized by over current even when cold. I assume they demag easier at higher temps but that is generally not the problem.

oh wow I would never have known! thanks for the heads up :D

User avatar
MrDude_1   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1015
Joined: Aug 17 2012 3:07pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 22 2018 9:06am

fechter wrote:
Jun 08 2018 8:29am
The Kelly is much higher quality than the Yi-Yun units. The lack of current limiting on the YK43 is probably why it blew up. It works OK if your pack voltage is low enough or the motor resistance is high enough so that limits the current to something in the survival range.
yeah, I ran one of those on a massive DC kart motor until it melted the wires... they're pretty robust considering how simple they are.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

User avatar
MrDude_1   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1015
Joined: Aug 17 2012 3:07pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: more powerful brushed controller

Post by MrDude_1 » Jun 22 2018 9:14am

heres a thread on the powerful $30 controller I used:
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... hp?t=83573

As long as you dont need current limiting or a voltage cutoff, it works well.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

Post Reply