Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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Lindegaard   1 mW

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Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 26 2018 7:06am

Hallo.

I have a 2000w 60 v electric scooter with Lead acid batteries.
Would i get more performance switching to Litium batteries?

And whats the best way to do it?
Can i just take out the 5 12v 12amp batteries and switch to same size litium batteries connect them and just go out for a ride?

And do i need a new charger? :D

Best regards Alexander

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 26 2018 7:29am

wow. this is a really general question with a lot of assumptions for us to make - including your knowledge about electronics and stuff.
first of all: yes. it's doable. in principal you can exchange every chemistry against any other. BUT you have know what you do.
lead acid is very user friendly, but has very little energy density. very heavy - low energy.
li-co/mn/... is very high power density, and lighter.
both have different charge/discharge properties. and cell voltage is different as well. a 6 cell lead is around 12v, a 6 cell lithium is around 20v.
your lead battery is 5x 12v battery, so 60v in theory. fully charged 14v * 5 = 70V. it's quite likely that your controller can take a little more than that.

for that you would need the correct charger. lithium should be "balance" charged. that means that during charge every single cell is monitored so it won't charge above (4.2-4.3V). if it did the cell could go mad and bad things can happen.
so 3 ways to do it (2 recommended):

.) monitor cell voltages during charge - no recommended as not practical and time consuming
.) use a balance charger - uncomfortable for anything above 12 cells
.) use a bulk charger and use a bms to monitor the battery cells.

so i'd recommend, depending on your knowledge:
a) get some 18s li-mn 18650 pack as big as you can with a proper bms and a bulk charger. imho by far the most convenient and safest setup.
b) get some 6s (maybe 3 in series) rc-lipo batteries and a rc-charger or bms. this is the most powerful, and cheapest setup, but bears the highest risk, especially if you are not used to work with this kind of battery.

question that remains: you didn't define power. do you want to acchieve more range, or more horsepower? for both you need to swap the battery first, so this was the first part of my answer.
for more power: you may want to post pics of the scooter and it's insides. controller, motor stuff etc ....

Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 26 2018 7:53am

I only have one photo.
I am looking for more HP and maybe more distance.
And as u Can see i have the battery pack With 5 12v batteries.
821FF8AB-F19C-4698-9B63-48255C460B2B.jpeg
And sorry i am a Noob so thats why i am Asking.
But to charge the battery i have a 3 pole plug on the side of the scooter.
If i find a Way to get some litium batteries, i dont wanna make them my self, just buy Them and plug Them in.
I need to find another Way to charge Them right? Like i Can’t just switch batteries, plug the cable to the scooter and then the litium batteries would charge?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 26 2018 8:27am

Lindegaard wrote:
Jul 26 2018 7:53am
I need to find another Way to charge Them right? Like i Can’t just switch batteries, plug the cable to the scooter and then the litium batteries would charge?
oh yes. sure it would charge. but the result would not be what you'd expect. at least not if you "just swap lead for any lithium".
you may be able to use the old charger. maybe you can open it and adjust it's output voltage, or you may even just be lucky and find a perfectly sized lithium. whereas size refers to VOLTAGE.
so i would take a digital multimeter and measure the output of the charger (it may be written on the charger itself). please tell us the result. then we can start finding the correct battery.
pushing the power.... hmmm... replacing the battery alone will add some power and speed, as the lithium is properly sized will not sag as much as the lead. if you really want to add more power, eg. raise output to 3kW: you will need a new controller. should be easyily doable, and can be found on aliexpress for a few $.

Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 26 2018 8:50am

I found something Like this.
29B1AF60-1F72-4818-84FB-11A9CB476E88.jpeg
This is a 48v 20a battery.
Could that work? There is a charger coming With it?

Even do Its only 48v would it be an upgrade?
I Will post a picture of everything u wanna know, when i get home tomorrow.
I just want a little bit more torque.
And how Can i raise it 2 3kw?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 26 2018 9:13am

difficult to say from a picture. maybe post the link to the webshop. it may have a BMS already installed.
your lead battery will sag quite a bit so under full load you may see a similar voltage from both lead and 48V lithium (which btw should be a 13s or 14s lithium, fully charged to 55-59V.
top speed is directly connected to voltage. so better look for a 16s lithium to get more top speed.
for raising power from 2 to 3 kw you will need to buy a new controller. the controller needed will be dependent on type of motor (dc, brushed, brushless ...). so take a pic of data sticker of the controller and post it.

Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 26 2018 10:32am

Okay. Thx for all ur help.
I will post a picture of my controller tomorow, i know Its a 2000w brushless motor. 😊

And then u Can maybe help me find some better batteries and controller? 🧐


Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 27 2018 9:48am

This is the sticker on the controller.
6162CFAC-17F1-44B1-AFC0-E73F60588C51.jpeg
Is that enough information?


So what do u have in mind 😁

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 27 2018 10:32am

this is only part of the sticker?! it's a start, but i miss the type and manufacturer.

Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 27 2018 10:56am

I could only find this part and the serial Number 😁
I know that the scooter is named Nicrox? I dont know if they also maid the controller?

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 29 2018 9:00am

F82D5A32-7EA5-42DC-8F70-ECD146D9A7F1.jpeg
This is the hole sticker. Nothing Else to find on the controller 👌

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 30 2018 2:28am

unfortunately google didn't show any results - you may have tried that before yourself i guess. that leads us to the next step:
you need to make a list and pictures of the connectors. they may have stickers applied to it, making it easier to identify what they are.
first step may be to look if there are three big wires and, five small ones go to the motor, or if it's only 2 big ones.
i guess it's the later. a simple brushed DC motor. not very efficient, but makes life for you easier :)

soemthing like that may suit it:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Powerfu ... autifyAB=0

Lindegaard   1 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 30 2018 6:09am

A5F8DA8F-A092-44AE-A53F-4EF2ADF87FF8.jpeg
There is only one Big wire going from the motor to the controller..
56276CB7-9896-4EA8-86D5-848784667823.jpeg
The other end of the wire we have 3 Big ones and 5 small ones.
They all go into the controller but the Big ones go into the Yellow box First and the small ones to go a conneter.
08F5A443-685A-4151-A26C-B57535AA6183.jpeg
08F5A443-685A-4151-A26C-B57535AA6183.jpeg (112.92 KiB) Viewed 532 times

80886365-1D60-4D51-858A-1A2DE0D830D7.jpeg


And this is just a picture of all of it.

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Jul 30 2018 8:09am

That's good. You have a BLDC motor. So brushless. There are a lot of cheap controllers for that kind of motor on aliexpress.
Or you can get one of powervelocity's controllers here on the forum. Those are programmable.

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by Lindegaard » Jul 30 2018 12:30pm

Can u maybe link to a controller?
And what type of lithium battery should i get? 😄

drc   10 mW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by drc » Jul 31 2018 2:14pm

Hi, I have a similar scooter to yourself and I also had no idea when joined this forum. Its fair to say I still have limited knowledge but I know enough to help offer some quick fixes for you.
In short if you want a cheap and reliable battery and charger I would suggest you pick up 4 x 4s multistar 16000mah lipo packs (I got mine from ebay for £45 each) . This will give you 16s and 66-65v at full charge this might be a little much for your controller so as mentioned a 15 s pack made of 3 x5s packs will give you a full charge of no more than 63v and i think your controller might be ok?!? but finding cheap 5s lipo packs with hi capacity might be a challenge.



You will need to do a little wiring to link these packs in series and this will be able to be linked straight up to your stock controller. For charging the cheapest option I have found is to get a Lipo rc charger and pending the wattage you can charge the all 4 packs in series in one go.
I did this for my chaos 48v scooter (12s 16000mah lipos) and I can assure you your range will be massively improved! SLA’s belong in the bin! They will get you moving and if you only use the scooter from time to time then sure they will work out for you but with lipos you can increase the number of packs if you choose a better controller and motor so they will make your scooter future proof. if you went for 15s or 16s you would be over volting the motor a little and it would be ok with that but the strain would come to your controller (IMO)

As for performance you will maybe see a consistent power delivery and slight more speed and stronger acceleration ( pending your gearing) as the lipos wont sag like SLA’s do and you will be running for much much long.

Hope this helps. Have a look at some of the thread including mine, one of electric gods and ian hills as there is so much info out there! many of these scooters have been fettled with.
When you feel a little more up to speed with it all here is an amazing link that will walk you through building a good ev scooter. You will need a few hours to read and digest it so be warned.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=94527
Good luck and enjoy.

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Aug 01 2018 2:18am

drc wrote:
Jul 31 2018 2:14pm
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=94527
Good luck and enjoy.
OMG. this is a massive compendium. i know electricgod is no shy of typing a lot, but this is MASSIVE.
may be too overhelming for most of us out there.
i personally would NOT recommend rc-lipo for noobs. and not in a scooter, where they are quite difficult to install so they don't rattle around and may get damaged.
if you want to do that, then you need to have a safe place for them to install, but then you need a lot of wires to balance charge those lipos and monitor them closely.
i personally sleep better when i recommend a quality 18650 pack with a proper bms. this is more or less a fire and forget solution. easy to handle, and still strong enough ...

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by drc » Aug 01 2018 2:50pm

I hear what your saying. I will be using a bms and the packs are taped into one and Velcro’d down. As it’s contained in a metal box ( all be it with a wooden lid) it is as safe and movement free as it will be. Agreed a good 18650 pack is the safest bet . But for bang for your buck RC lipo batteries are the cheapest (and most dangerous) solution option imo.

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Batteri upgrade/more performance.

Post by izeman » Aug 02 2018 5:46am

Ok. Go for it. Just wanted to be sure you're aware of the risk.

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