Page 8 of 8

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 25 2019 4:54pm
by LockH
^^ Hehe... "The problem with using electricity to create hydrogen from water is that it uses electricity. " Got plenty of water... plenty of cheap electricity via solar cells... and chemical cells as batterys never wear out... ermmm... ooops.

OTOH, hydrogen stored in tanks is cheap to make, renewable, and the tanks never wear out, etc etc etc... :wink:

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 25 2019 9:36pm
by amberwolf
Tanks do wear out--every time they are pressurised, they are stressed. As pressure decreases, teh stresses change, reduce, etc. Then they are repressurized, etc. Cycling eventually causes stress fractures, which eventually can crack all the way thru.

Similarly, chemical generation units (fuel cells, etc) do wear out--sometimes it's from physical damage like the above, sometimes its' from impurities in either the original construction or in the materials passing thru it that then react with other things and cause increasing defects over time.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 26 2019 1:26pm
by billvon
LockH wrote:
Jan 25 2019 4:54pm
OTOH, hydrogen stored in tanks is cheap to make, renewable, and the tanks never wear out, etc etc etc...
As mentioned above, tanks do wear out - and hydrogen has an additional problem with being stored in them, because it causes hydrogen embrittlement of common tank materials (steel, aluminum etc.) You can coat them, of course, but that presents additional problems.

That's not to say it can't be done, of course. But the statement "hey, just put it in a tank; it's easy and cheap!" isn't even close to being true.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 27 2019 1:27am
by LockH
Always look at the worst scenario... then imagine it ten times worse. :wink:

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 29 2019 9:38pm
by helno
billvon wrote:
Jan 25 2019 4:43pm
But that's like saying I have an awesome method to create gold out of almost nothing! I'll be a millionaire, right? To create a gram of gold, I just start with three grams of diamonds and . . .
The plants I work at have neutron flux detectors that slowly turn to gold.

But they start out as Platinum....

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 29 2019 9:46pm
by billvon
helno wrote:
Jan 29 2019 9:38pm
The plants I work at have neutron flux detectors that slowly turn to gold.
But they start out as Platinum....
It's always those details that get you . . .

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jan 31 2019 1:33am
by cricketo
billvon wrote:
Jan 25 2019 4:43pm
Right. But that's like saying I have an awesome method to create gold out of almost nothing! I'll be a millionaire, right? To create a gram of gold, I just start with three grams of diamonds and . . .

The problem with using electricity to create hydrogen from water is that it uses electricity. And you'd be a lot better off using that electricity to just charge that EV in the first place. Converting it to hydrogen, storing it, transporting it, compressing it and then using it to power a fuel cell means you get about 1/3 of the energy you put in to making it.
Context is important. Battery-powered EVs are plenty useful given the weight / capacity / range. Same is not true when it comes to flying machines - they're constrained by weight, use more energy, so current battery tech isn't practical for their use. Electrical drivetrains have obvious benefits though, including in flying machines. So currently the only solution that comes to mind is chemical fuel consumed to generate electricity. What fuel, and how consumed is up to you. Hydrogen, methane, propane can be produced using electricity and be carbon neutral.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 19 2019 2:37am
by TheBeastie
I assume everyone's seen this video of the 2-hour flying Hydrogen Fuel Cell drone, if not check it again here. There are bigger models out there that can fly for 4-hours straight on YouTube but these Intelligent Energy kits seem to be aimed the major more practical needs in the drone/quadcopter market, I think Intelligent Energy is aiming for what most people need more than ultra-extreme long distant flight applications.
Of course, none of this stuff is for kids as toys, this is expensive serious business stuff.

This video has a tiny amount of views for how cool it is, I think there are just too many arseholes out there that never click on the Like button on good videos.
https://youtu.be/AHlrLU7kTys



But now there is a NEW video just running through their Fuel-Cell/Hydrogen kit/power-pack on how straight forward it is to build your own quadcopter/drone from their kit (for those who are at least familiar with it all)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTVI_ISVWkY



Once 4th gen nuclear is up and running, using it to mass produce Hydrogen by splitting water will be a no-brainer formality IMO, officially most 4th gen nuclear is designed from the ground up to be able produce Hydrogen as well as electricity generation, unfortunately, explaining the technology and methods behind 4th gen nuclear is not easily absorbable or something that can effectively put placed in a single simple meme like RE does with a pictures of a wind-turbine saying "this can power the world" etc.
I go over that in some of my "pro-nuclear / hydrogen posts" links in my signature.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 19 2019 2:42am
by Chalo
TheBeastie wrote:
Feb 19 2019 2:37am
This video has a tiny amount of views for how cool it is, I think there are just too many arseholes out there that never click on the Like button on good videos.
Or, like me, they have a look and think, "yeah, whatever".

I might change my mind about multirotors being fairly lame if we get some low budget, high value assassinations using them.

But I think they're fairly lame.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 19 2019 12:27pm
by Grantmac
Am I the only one thinking a 650w fuel cell would be a significant range extender on an ebike?

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 23 2019 12:11am
by cricketo
Grantmac wrote:
Feb 19 2019 12:27pm
Am I the only one thinking a 650w fuel cell would be a significant range extender on an ebike?
It seems like 650W would have many practical applications. Any idea on the cost ? Also do they have a way to produce / store hydrogen, or the expectation is you'd take those cylinders elsewhere for filling ?

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 23 2019 2:30pm
by fechter
They make a 800W version of the fuel cell, but their website does not show any pricing.
Maximum continuous power 800W
Maximum peak power 1400W
Output voltage 19.6V to 25.2V
Fuel Cell Power Module Dimensions 196 × 100 × 140mm
Mass 930g
Hydrogen Regulator Mass 250g
Maximum regulator (cylinder) pressure 300 Bar/4350 PSI
Output pressure 0.5 Bar ± 0.25 Bar/7 PSI ± 3 PSI
PRV set pressure 2 Bar/29 PSI
Burst disc set pressure 450 Bar/6500 PSI
Maximum cylinder mass 10kg
I would imagine you could refill the H2 tank where they refill fuel cell cars.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Feb 23 2019 2:41pm
by Grantmac
If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it.

Commercial drones where time=money definitely make a several thousand dollar investment pay off quickly if they bid by the job rather than charge by the hour.

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Mar 30 2019 2:20pm
by MitchJi
AmpEater wrote:
Oct 05 2010 7:48am

Edit - I assumed you were talking human-size quadcopters. RC scale has been done 1000 times by now, even open source projects with hardware available. That doesn't keep me from wanting one, of course. I have a thermal camera that would be awesome to get airborne, but is outside the payload of most smaller quads.
This is relevant
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=99409

Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Jul 25 2019 8:08am
by TheBeastie
Introducing the TF-19 Flamethrower Drone
Definitely looks like fun for the whole family :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07rtBip9ixk


Re: Elephant in the room - Quadcopters...

Posted: Oct 16 2019 9:46am
by TheBeastie
I find the possibilities of fuel-cells fascinating since finding Hydrogen Fuel Cell quadcopters/drones claims that can fly for up to 4-hours straight in perfect ideal conditions with a large tank and nothing to carry like a camera/weight etc.
With the "fuel-cell flying electric car" also supposedly on the way https://interestingengineering.com/look ... es-is-here

Here is a large all in one FAQ Hydrogen Fuel Cell quadcopters/drone YouTube video to answer all the questions, the most obvious is that it's expensive gear, only for professional industrial use only, but who knows what 10 years can do.

This Drone Will Fly For One Hour Using A Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Here's How! 12 FAQ's
https://youtu.be/szTVfkVrLLI