FLYING with electricity

Things that fly
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gestalt   10 kW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by gestalt » Apr 28 2010 10:15pm

Lock.
I'm digging it, so essentially turning that body into a massive ducted fan. If it does only use the jet engine sparingly it would make sense, even keeping true to its original anime form in the movie "nausicaa and the valley of the wind". if you are into anime and haven't seen the film shame on you. In the movie it jet bursts to altitude and then glides, only using the engine for more than bursts occasionally. but if you didn't catch it, here is the video of the 1/5 scale jet powered rc version and it flies like a mofre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nkc-Rhgb7Y

I have been trying to figure out a way to make a top riding light aircraft for quite some time and since it's called opensky, I sure hope they are open source because I'm going to be "borrowing" quite a bit from their design. If that fan generates 28lbs I wonder how much force the prop units out there produce.

edit:
I just found the specs on the electraflyer and it says the thrust generated is 140lbs. So you would have to upgrade the power of the fan design to five times greater output but doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
- be seeing you
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Lock   10 GW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » Apr 28 2010 10:58pm

gestalt wrote:I just found the specs on the electraflyer and it says the thrust generated is 140lbs. So you would have to upgrade the power of the fan design to five times greater output but doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
One other data point, the AE-1 powered glider (in this thread here:)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 45#p255452

...uses a 13kW rated motor. Watt kinda thrust that translates to I have no idea... swinging a 76" prop...
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by etard » Apr 29 2010 8:58am

Johannes,

Very nice to have you here, welcome to ES! Have you looked into the Astro 3220 motors that Recumpence is putting on his KMX trike, here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=15634

These motors are stout than the Hobbyking outrunners IMHO. Also the cellman 20ah A123 Batteries would be perfect for this application.

I was wondering what kind of climb ratio you are experiencing with your current setup? How many meters/ second? Thank you, and I really like your DIY segway, any more info on this too?
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Aviation & EV coming together

Post by Lock » May 06 2010 10:41am

[EVDL] Aviation & EV coming together
Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:28 AM
From: "Rick Beebe" <rick@beebe.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>

This is from AVweb, an aviation e-newsletter. The EAA mentioned is NOT the Electric Auto Association.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/a ... tml#202497

--Rick

CAFE Symposium Glimpses The Future Of Flight

It isn't quite a flux capacitor, but Jonathan Trent, a marine biologist, is working with NASA to create biofuels using the effluent pumped out of
wastewater treatment plants. Trent detailed his latest research at the fourth annual Electric Aircraft Symposium, in Santa Rosa, Calif.,
organized by the CAFE Foundation. His system uses energy from the sun to operate, and cleans the water while growing algae that can be used for
fuel. The several hundred participants at the event also heard about advances in battery technology from Eva Hakansson, who together with her
husband, Bill Dube, built the world's fastest electric motorcycle. They are now working on a two-wheeled electric-powered vehicle they hope will
go 400 mph. Improving the energy density of batteries -- how much power they can deliver per unit of weight -- is at the core of advancing
electric flight, according to EAA.

Participants at the symposium discussed both progress and problems encountered over the last year. "There is a ground-swell of activity in
the area of electric flight," said EAA's Ron Wagner. "We live in exciting times." Topics on the agenda included nanotechnology, which is
seen as a promising source of advances in batteries, and hybrid power, perhaps combining an internal combustion engine for takeoff and climb
and switching to electric power for cruise flight. EAA will highlight electronic aircraft advances at AirVenture Oshkosh later this summer,
with daily showcase flights, displays, and forums in AirVenture's Aviation Learning Center.


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regmeister   1 kW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by regmeister » May 09 2010 10:08am

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » May 09 2010 10:42am

HAHA!!! YAY! YAY! I really want to do this!

His site here:
http://www.icaro2000.com/Home.htm
Looks like he has a Flytec system:
http://www.flytec.ch/e-drive/home.htm

Nice and quiet!!! It's the prop noise I've been wondering about and this doesn't sound loud at all...

Would love to hear pack Whs and watt running time this provides... Flytec offers 1368Wh of Li-ion or 2072Wh or 3108Wh of LiPo.

Just awesome
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by regmeister » May 09 2010 9:10pm

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » May 10 2010 4:36pm

Very nice loops, `cept just watching makes my stomach do loops... Nice thing about an open trike design, no cockpit glass coated in barf
:D
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by etard » May 11 2010 12:49am

Gorgeous airplane in flight, how much does something like that trike go for? Is it a special wing, or is a hang gliding wing retrofitted? Good finds, I will def have to try this one day. Does this fall under the sport pilot license?
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » May 11 2010 5:26am

etard wrote:...how much does something like that trike go for? Is it a special wing, or is a hang gliding wing retrofitted?
Found their price list:
http://www.icaro2000.com/Products/Price ... Retail.pdf

Looks like about $10,500 for the basic trike w/eprop plus ship to ??? Looks like you could spend a lot more w/the options like folding prop and emerg parachute... Still a lot cheaper than my last sailboat but not as roomy for guests and picnic :D

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by regmeister » May 11 2010 7:00am

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » May 11 2010 7:32am

regmeister wrote:In the US you could consider the electraflyer http://www.electraflyer.com/trike.php
COMPLETE SYSTEM: with Stratus wing, ElectraFlyer trike, medium battery pack, and charger.$ 18,385.00
Probably a more realistic price FOB North America... Power plant not as elegant though:
ElectraFlyer.jpg
ElectraFlyer.jpg (67.91 KiB) Viewed 1129 times
LFP's recent Perm 132 autopsy was a bit disappointing:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=18265

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Electravia e-Props, motors etc from France

Post by Lock » May 23 2010 12:04pm

Man do these folks make some gorgeous air props:
http://www.e-props.electravia.fr/ENG/ENGindex.html
From their home page:
The ELECTRAVIA company designs, manufactures and markets propellers for non certified light aircraft : airplanes, motorgliders, ultralights, trikes, gyroplane and paramotors.

E-PROPS propeller's range can be used either on reciprocating engines (2 strokes and 4 strokes) or on new electrical motors.
They have a fun online efficiency calculator where ya can calculate just how horribly inefficient air props really are:
http://www.e-props.electravia.fr/ENG/ENGsimulation.html

Electravia also has their own site for motors, controllers, packs etc, here:
http://www.e-motor.fr/ENGLISH/Zindex.html

Their motors look familiar:
EM0409b0.jpg
EM0409b0.jpg (52.02 KiB) Viewed 1090 times
They offer Kokam Lipo and their own "Protection Circuit Module" connected to each cell plus their own BMS as well...

Interesting, they seem to not include equalizing in their PCM and BMS design but offer a third-party "balancer" (single cell charger?) and suggest:
Equilizing is performed every 50 to 100 charge/discharge cycles depending of unbalance.
They do lots of custom design and development with others... get to work on cool projects. They have electrified one of these:
ALATUS-M.JPG
ALATUS-M.JPG (43.53 KiB) Viewed 1090 times
tks
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AEF Gliders from France

Post by Lock » May 23 2010 2:27pm

Found someone using the Electravia emotor system...

http://www.aef-gliders.com/

Their Monotrace Electric looks like this:

[The extension bmp has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

... 16,000 Euros without the wing...

They're using the 26HP (peak) rated motor/controller and (it looks like) two 3kWh 74V 40Ah Kokam packs, which they claim gives 30-40 minutes flying time although still with 15-20 minutes left in the pack as a safety cushion.

Specs from Electrvia:
E-MOTOR GMPE 102 : DC disc type motor
This engine can be used to replace any two strokes engines up to 26 HP
Mass = 11,5 kg
Speed : 47 RPM/V @ 4 A and 42 RPM/V @ 300 A
Engine max speed : 4 000 RPM
Static thrust of the GMPE 102 with a propeller E-PROPS optimized for a cruise speed = 60 km/h : 68 kg
Max continuous 11 kW (15 HP)
Efficiency at 11kW 93%

GMPE 102 controller :
Mass : 1,8 kg
Efficiency : 99 %
Max current : 300 A
Max Voltage : 90 V


One nice touch with the AEF machine is that the rear wheels are retractable for better aero.

BTW, AEF will also sell you watt might be the most expensive throttle control on the planet... Not twist grip, not half twist, not thumb, but finger:
AEF_Cameleon_Trigger.JPG
AEF_Cameleon_Trigger.JPG (22.68 KiB) Viewed 1081 times
Their Cameleon trigger lists right now at 175 Euros... plus shipping
Thumb operated main on/off switch (lockable off)
etc etc... Actually cable operated but they've adapted it to also work with their emotor/controller rig...

Tks
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Re: Aeronautic Innovation Rühle GmbH+Co

Post by Lock » May 23 2010 3:03pm

Lock from back in April 2009 wrote:http://www.a-i-r.de/eng/air_02e.php?kat=118&par=0&gp=2
Earlier I quoted:
"For those interested in the hang glider implementation, a harness similar to the Mosquito has been designed by Toni Roth (a.roth@t-online.de)"
...that'd be A.I.R.'s machine:
AIR_Electric_Mosquito_2009.jpg
A-I-R now has a US distributor, AIR USA LLC out of Iowa:
http://www.a-i-r-usa.com/

Another pic of the A-I-R Electro Lift:
Image

and a bit of epr0n, the backside of Dr.Ecks motor:
Image

Anywhooo, AIR USA is currently listing the AIR Electro Lift as the "ATOS VX Silent" at $17,875.00US plus shipping...
This is JUST for the KIT... the "Motorized Pod" including Retractable gear, Electric start, Folding prop, which then mates with their carbon-fibre VX Glider, looks like another $20,280.00... gulp...

It's an awful pretty thing though:
Image

tks
Lock
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by etard » May 24 2010 12:29am

That's badass Lock, looks like you have been putting down plenty of quality time dreaming of silent flight one day!! I hope you get there my friend. I really like that last glider pic., But trying to figure out how the controls work. I see the the stick through the cockpit to change up or down movement, but how does he go side to side?
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by regmeister » May 24 2010 1:09am

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » May 24 2010 7:15am

etard wrote:That's badass Lock, looks like you have been putting down plenty of quality time dreaming of silent flight one day!! I hope you get there my friend.
Hehe... thanks etard. Have to say, all of the best flights I have ever had were in small planes. 2-4-seaters... Low and slow... But actually my interest in the eplanes is NOT to go flying myself! Two reasons... Same as the RC folks here that are using the low kV RC motors etc for ebikes, the fliers are developing similar tech for their flying machines and some of this will be useful for the high powered ebike crowd. And secondly, I want to build a boat! Think Florida swamp boat lite... A two seater picnic boat with twin air props at the stern. Fly-by-wire joystick control to vary power to the props port-and-starboard to effect steering. 8)

STILL waiting to see pricing for Yuneec's E-PAC system, now overdue as they were earlier suggesting first deliveries in January/February but no word since.
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The Electric-Powered Aircraft Technical challenges

Post by Lock » May 30 2010 8:24am

New article about eflight on the EAA site. Basics about motor topographies, controllers and lithium batt tech, including predictions for the future such as pack energy densities "...365 wh/kg is expected in the next couple of years":
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/article ... ectric.asp

Image

tks
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Lange Aviation GmbH Antares 20E

Post by Lock » May 30 2010 8:48am

http://www.lange-aviation.com/htm/engli ... s_20E.html
Antares20E.jpg
Antares20E.jpg (22.74 KiB) Viewed 1113 times
Antares20E_motor.jpg
Antares20E_motor.jpg (51.46 KiB) Viewed 7490 times
Compared to other currently available Lithium based cells (Li-Po / Li-Su), SAFT VL41M exhibits very high current capability and very good cycleability. This qualifies SAFT VL41M Li-Ion cells for application as aircraft energy storage before all other available cells.
SAFT_VL41M.jpg
SAFT_VL41M.jpg (29.05 KiB) Viewed 7490 times
Antares_pack.jpg
Antares_pack.jpg (52.05 KiB) Viewed 7495 times
As a user of SAFT VL41M cells, Lange Aviation is in good company. SAFT VL41M are also used in most new European satellites, the RQ-4B Global Hawk UAV, the F35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Airbus A380 and in many other high-tech applications.

Next to being a great vote of confidence to SAFT VL41M cells, the military implementations mean that the cells which are now being built into the Antares 20E will be available at least until 2031.
System is rated 42kW but not sure if this is peak or continuous. 1500rpm w/max 1700rpm.

tks
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by etard » May 30 2010 12:28pm

Wow, I don't even want to know how much these Saft cells cost if they are in the joint strike fighter. Li-Su?? Lithium sulfate? What chemistry are these?

Have you seen this motor thread Lock?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=18681

It seems one of our members is gonna knock the socks off the current offerings as far as power to weight AND price!!
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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by markobetti » May 30 2010 12:54pm


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Lock   10 GW

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Pierre-Jean Beney's Electric Trikebuggy

Post by Lock » Jun 05 2010 6:34pm

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by RoughRider » Jun 09 2010 5:00am

anyone know the price of that motor?

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Lock   10 GW

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Re: FLYING with electricity

Post by Lock » Jun 09 2010 6:03am

If ya mean the twin motors Pierre-Jean was running in that vid, looks like they're Hacker A200-8's, seen here as $1,099 (but outta stock):
http://www.stevensaero.com/Hacker-Brush ... 19216.html
Hacker_A200-8.jpg
Hacker_A200-8.jpg (8.62 KiB) Viewed 7421 times
Type Brushless Outrunner

Length (in.) 4.96
Diameter (in.) 4.3
Weight (oz.) 91.2
Shaft Diameter (mm.) 10
RPM / V (kv) 110
Peak Current (Amps) 300
Power Rating (Watts) 15000
Connector None / Bare Wire

Includes Prop Adapter Yes
Suggested LiPo (V) 44.4V (12S)
51.8V (14S)
55.5V (15S)

Suggested Propeller 32x10
Gear Ratio X:1 0


I see the same site recommending a Jeti "MasterSPIN 220 Opto 220A" controller for this motor at $849...
Type Brushless
Li-Po Compatible Yes
Length (in.) 4.7
Width (in.) 2.9
Thickness (in.) 1.1
Weight (oz.) 9.5
Maximum Voltage 0
Continuous Amps 220
Power Rating (Watts) 8800
BEC Type None
BEC Current (Amps) 0
Battery Connector None / Bare Wire
Motor Connector None / Bare Wire

If yer thinking ebike, looks like this motor would get you to the train on time, no problem :D

Cheers
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