Blackfly at Oshkosh

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Ghost Rider   10 mW

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Ghost Rider » Sep 06 2018 12:07pm

Sometimes I cry myself to sleep because I am so ashamed of all the damage I am doing to the ozone layer. Last year I even sold all of my cows because I have been told that they hurt the environment when they fart.
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Chalo » Sep 06 2018 12:19pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Sep 06 2018 12:07pm
Sometimes I cry myself to sleep because I am so ashamed of all the damage I am doing to the ozone layer. Last year I even sold all of my cows because I have been told that they hurt the environment when they fart.
You were spewing chlorofluorocarbons-- and raising cattle-- for recreation? As an expression of wealth? Weird, but whatever. At least you stopped.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by craneplaneguy » Sep 06 2018 4:23pm

Well, I'm taking off tomorrow for northern Montana, and I'll be burning 3.2 GPH of mogas while doing so, probably about 10 or 12 hours total of flying over a 3 day weekend (I had to do crane work Labor Day, this is my makeup holiday), so you can do the math and agonize over the CO2 I'll be spewing out while doing so, I sure won't. Do you really think, if I stayed home, and stared at my navel in a darkened room, it would really make even an teeny tiny bit of difference? It's a huge planet with billons of people, I try and keep things in perspective. While I won't go out and hijack an oil tanker and blow it up just to watch the pretty fire, I sure as hell don't sweat using up 30 or 40 gallons of gas, doing something that is so damn much fun, challenging, and rewarding as piloting my own homebuilt airplane over some of the best scenary in the West, I'd be crazy not to do so, having the capability like I do, for however long. The rest of the time I'll ride my renewable energy powered e bike, drive my Prius, and remain vegan (which I do for strictly personal reasons, not any others, think '60's acid trip, nuff said).

I only mention my long time veganism and USING (not just talking about it) renewable energy, as that seems to give some people the impression I would never do anything so irreverant as flying an ICE aircraft around, just for the hell of it. I get the same thing when driving my PluginPrius, people form a certain attitude when they see my ride, but like the big jacked up pickup on my ass yesterday while I was driving up the mountain (probably thinking I'd be slow as hell and he'd be stuck behind me) I probably changed his presumption about "that damn Prius driver", once we got by my neighbors driveways and on the switchbacks, I quickly disappeared from his view (the CVT tranny is great, they are not that slow, you just need to put your foot down). That little sprint will eat into my usual 57-59 mpg tank average, but IT DOESN'T MATTER, too little to quantify.

Voltran:if you want to live in town, in rented housing I assume, that's fine. Living where I do, on 40 acres I own outright, with a home I'm not paying rent on, just having a bike isn't going to cut it. High density urban housing, for sure is more "green", but I'd go on a shooting spree after a week. I'm not disagreeing with anything others have said, other then the proportion of it all. I dumped a bag of beer bottles in the town recycling bin today, so I guess that makes my plane flying even out, if not, I'm about ready to take the beer cans in also, that should do it.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Voltron » Sep 06 2018 4:45pm

For me personally, the pleasure wasn't worth it in the long run. I was a glider instructor, and spent lots of time at attitude on glider flights. After flying up into enough inversion layers where the pollution is trapped in a purple layer you can't see when you return to the ground, and looking out across the landscape at the many going about their daily routines ignorant of the consequences of the fun jet ski ride, or motocross ride, the SUV ride to get groceries, and yes, the tow up even when disconnecting and continuing to fly for hours afterward on no fuel... Well, it sucked the fun out of it to the point I had to turn my back on it all, despite how enjoyable it was.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Chalo » Sep 06 2018 6:48pm

My dad had a half share of a Cessna 182 when I was a preteen. I got to ride in the right seat a few times. The experience prepared me for the loud and tedious parts of motorcycling when I undertook that many years later. I think of it as having been normal in its time, the way that 460ci V-8s were normal, or DDT, or smoking in restaurants, or amphetamine diet pills, or not being able to get a taxi to pick you up in the black part of town. We just know better about some things now.

I got similar highway GPH in my first car, a clapped-out '74 Karmann Ghia convertible, as craneplaneguy in his dinky plane. While I'm sure that plane's noise is about as welcome as a wet fart to those seeking peace and isolation in the backcountry, the plane is not extravagantly wasteful. Nor is it, I'm guessing, extravagantly expensive-- as grown-up toys go.

I'm hoping that the next generation of electric aircraft are not only more efficient and less demanding to maintain, but also used in an on-demand role, so that more people can fly with fewer aircraft needed. Expecting people who take cars for granted to develop some kind of aircraft noise etiquette is pretty far-fetched, but all the the same I hope for that too.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by craneplaneguy » Sep 07 2018 7:44am

You are clueless as to how noisy my plane is, ever hear of a Swiss muffler? Google it. Or a Prince P tip prop? I have both. Thanks to the freedom of it being experimental, yes, some certified high horsepower planes can be obnoxious, especially in a flat pitch at the prop and high rpm's when the tips go supersonic, not my thing at all.

My state has the largest wilderness in the lower 48, and when people in it hear an airplane, they know their ride out is coming, or their ride in, or maybe medical assistance, or supplies are coming. Aircraft perform a crucial role in the Frank Church, and if someone briefly hears a plane overhead and decide they don't like the sound, they need to remember life isn't always about them!

More bad news: electric aircraft are not going to be soundless, especially if using a lot of small fast turning props, think "pissed off bees" sound. The ICE engine is just a part of the noise, and it's easily muffled, the tech on super quiet props is a lot more challenging. For a given task, making it as large as possible and turning it slow as possible will always be best, and extending the landing gear, along with larger tires to allow larger dia. props is common, my plane has both of those also. My neighbors 1/4 mile away don't know when I leave or arrive, that quiet enough? I fly over horses and cattle on approach, at 100' or so, and they barely look up, much less get excited.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Chalo » Sep 07 2018 11:52am

Thanks for taking some measures to make your plane quieter. There's only so much you can do, given that a plane is propelled by thrashing on air, but I'm sure that your efforts have helped. I expect that both the other aircraft being discussed in this thread are louder, even accommodating for take-off weight.

Noise is an inherent problem with powered aircraft that you can remediate somewhat, but you can't eliminate. Both jets and helicopters have gotten much quieter since I was a kid (RF-4 Phantoms used to fly takeoffs and approaches over my high school), but they still rise above the background of city noise even when they're farther away than all the parts of the city I can hear.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Hillhater » Sep 08 2018 3:41am

Helicopters are my personal flying annoyance, and its unrelated to motor type.
Its all rotor sound waves, especially the big Chinook dual rotor military types, you can litterally hear them 10 miles off.
The noise and the disproportionate amount of loss of life from hele failures, make me want them restricted to military, Police , and emergency service use only.
All these news camera platforms , trafic monitoring , VIP and Politician personal transport, use should be banned, and no possibility of private use within 10 miles of an urban area.
I dread what it may be like when heavy lift or personal trasport drones become practical !
.....but i will probably be deaf by then !!
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by The fingers » Sep 08 2018 1:09pm

Where we used to live west of the I-405 there were hundreds of helicopters daily, and the roar of the traffic was a constant din. Out here they're rare.
Ryan Field is way outside the other end of town so even during wildfire operations we don't usually see or hear anything but an occasional high altitude jet on it's way to Phoenix.
I remember the sound of the old Constellations out of Long Beach Airport and the daily sonic booms of the Air Force jets before they stopped them. :pancake:
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by axca » Sep 08 2018 3:04pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 06 2018 12:19pm
Ghost Rider wrote:
Sep 06 2018 12:07pm
Sometimes I cry myself to sleep because I am so ashamed of all the damage I am doing to the ozone layer. Last year I even sold all of my cows because I have been told that they hurt the environment when they fart.
You were spewing chlorofluorocarbons-- and raising cattle-- for recreation? As an expression of wealth? Weird, but whatever. At least you stopped.
He was surely attempting humour and sarcasm ... but in this one-of-a-kind board where there are backcountry vegans flying planes and driving Prius, and Communist master bike mechanics in Texas (of all places) who wants to impose "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" (or is it "Kommunism with Amerikan Karakteristiks" - I get confused), it's hard to know when not to take things at face value.

For the longest time, I thought that was how folks biked around in Texas:

image.png
image.png (431.68 KiB) Viewed 941 times

But it was actually Switzerland!

P.S., Chalo, you are one of the chielf attractions of this forum. I only started coming here recently when I started a project at my super-friendly LBS to have them build a single-speed bicycle for me ... with a mid-drive as afterthought.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by axca » Sep 08 2018 3:24pm

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/08/on ... ush-plane/

Is this the "Draco" in question?

So it sounds to me that he wants to spend some of his earned income on a plane that really is one of the few viable means of transportation in the boonies where he is king. It's commendable. Perhaps he wants to fly higher (the article seems to imply that) so if some snafu happens again in mid-air he has more time to glide his plane and land safely. Is that a wrong goal to pursue in a high-altitude place?

According to the article, the project is "only" 1 $million!

Did he bomb some place to get rich contracts for someone?
Did he invent yet another "social media platform" for teens and tweens to admire each other on?
Did he jack up the price of epi-pen to make a killing?
Or did he engage in "financial innovation"?

No he assumed personal risk and built something ... most of the world can agree that it is admirable ...

Back to "electrical plane", informed opinion (not mine certainly) thinks there will be no such thing in the near future ... not with current battery technology ... unless we can have big charged coils of metal floating in the sky that as you fly through them (guided by GPS), you induct-charge some super-capacitor ... or when some other novel "anti-gravity" physics become mainstream ...

As for noise, didn't they ban the old Concord from NYC because of "community complaint"? Surely there are (armed-to-the-teeth) neighborhood associations in back-country Utah that can and will lodge displeasure if the decibels are too outta line.

I might come across a little cranky myself ... being on-call has that effect. I apologize in advance. This forum is an enjoyable place to visit.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Voltron » Sep 08 2018 3:46pm

We're all straying off topic, but if you want to talk noise, wait till you're living on a base under a B1 bomber takeoff path... I've been around a lot of military aircraft, but nothing matched its shattering earthquake-like roar. The Concorde was loud, but the main reason it was banned after a while was it's detrimental effects of spewing lots of exhaust at high altitude. It was so immediately noticeable they outlawed expanding the fleet. Then the economics of only bring able to fly near the ocean and engineers fires etc. finished them.


I bet the Blackfly is a lot quieter. (Trying to sneak it back o.t.) :)

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by X2flier » Sep 08 2018 4:34pm

axca wrote:
Sep 08 2018 3:24pm
Back to "electrical plane", informed opinion (not mine certainly) thinks there will be no such thing in the near future ... not with current battery technology ... unless we can have big charged coils of metal floating in the sky that as you fly through them (guided by GPS), you induct-charge some super-capacitor ... or when some other novel "anti-gravity" physics become mainstream ...
Unless there is an impressive advance in batteries or power storage, I do not believe a fully electric airliner is practical for now. However, I do think we could build clean(er) and much quieter HYBRID airliners today.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=94656#p1394756

The correct fuel cells (and fuels) for the Blackfly or similar craft would seem to make them entirely practical today.
.
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Chalo » Sep 08 2018 4:54pm

X2flier wrote:
Sep 08 2018 4:34pm
Unless there is an impressive advance in batteries or power storage, I do not believe a fully electric airliner is practical for now.
Correct. I doubt batteries will ever be able to do that job.

Airships are the way to effectively apply electric propulsion to flight. And they come with an envelope that's well-suited to carry PV cells.

Before long, our fossil fuel addiction and abuse may intensify weather to the point that airships are no longer an option.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Punx0r » Sep 08 2018 5:37pm

Voltron wrote:
Sep 08 2018 3:46pm
The Concorde was loud, but the main reason it was banned after a while was it's detrimental effects of spewing lots of exhaust at high altitude. It was so immediately noticeable they outlawed expanding the fleet.
It was (loudly) speculated that NO2 emissions might damage the ozone layer, but there was never any evidence to support this assertion and it was later proved to be wrong.

The plane was loud (it still remains the only passenger aircraft to have after-burners, which is kinda awesome) but IIRC most of the noise objections were pre-emptive, based on a fear/expectation of noise blighting everyone's lives. I've never heard someone who actually experienced the plane moan about it. Noise annoyance or acceptability is very subjective...

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Hillhater » Sep 08 2018 8:16pm

Concorde was not banned from flying, only from landing and taking off at some airports.
..it was eventually withdrawn from sevice due to the imposition of uneconomic flight paths and subsonic operation over land to eliminate any percieved effects of sonic sound waves.
The final straw was the horrific crash on take off in Paris caused by a tyre failure from debris on the runway.
That would have required the reengineering of protection for the control systems fuel tanks etc.
After 20+ yrs sevice it was deemed uneconomical to keep the fleet flying for what was really a primarily loss making subsonic service.
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by craneplaneguy » Sep 09 2018 9:10am

axca wrote:
Sep 08 2018 3:24pm
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/08/on ... ush-plane/

Is this the "Draco" in question?

So it sounds to me that he wants to spend some of his earned income on a plane that really is one of the few viable means of transportation in the boonies where he is king. It's commendable. Perhaps he wants to fly higher (the article seems to imply that) so if some snafu happens again in mid-air he has more time to glide his plane and land safely. Is that a wrong goal to pursue in a high-altitude place?

According to the article, the project is "only" 1 $million!

Did he bomb some place to get rich contracts for someone?
Did he invent yet another "social media platform" for teens and tweens to admire each other on?
Did he jack up the price of epi-pen to make a killing?
Or did he engage in "financial innovation"?

No he assumed personal risk and built something ... most of the world can agree that it is admirable ...

Back to "electrical plane", informed opinion (not mine certainly) thinks there will be no such thing in the near future ... not with current battery technology ... unless we can have big charged coils of metal floating in the sky that as you fly through them (guided by GPS), you induct-charge some super-capacitor ... or when some other novel "anti-gravity" physics become mainstream ...

As for noise, didn't they ban the old Concord from NYC because of "community complaint"? Surely there are (armed-to-the-teeth) neighborhood associations in back-country Utah that can and will lodge displeasure if the decibels are too outta line.

I might come across a little cranky myself ... being on-call has that effect. I apologize in advance. This forum is an enjoyable place to visit.
Yeah, that's it. I learned a few details in reading the article you posted, this project took him 5 months, that is absolutely unbelievable! No matter how much money you have to throw at it, there are just so many details that suck time, like finding you need something real bad, sent UPS, and it's the start of a 3 day weekend (my personal unfavorite). Like him or hate him, the guy is some sort of frigging genius, and a hands on mechanical one at that.

The altitude it can fly at is mentioned as that's where it's fastest (thinner air) and the engine most efficient.

I too have witnessed a B-1 full afterburner takeoff, and really enjoyed the incredible noise, totally awesome, but I bet when it flies low over cattle they drop dead, my plane, they don't even look up!

I've said it before, but what I can see happening, sooner then pure electric craft with a decent range, is a hybrid. I want my PlugIn Prius's powerplant in my plane, (Draco's owner could do this, probably in less then 5 months, I can't) how cool would it be to make a long descent and be topping off the battery, to assist in the takeoff? OR (and this is really out there) tied down overnight on the ramp, in windy conditions, and be trickle charging the battery by a windmilling prop? Not practical, just a fun thought, like people thinking we recharge our bike battery while pedaling.....

The Prius uses 1.5 GPH at 75 mph, more or less, about half what my plane uses at the same speed roughly. The huge difference is the plane travels in a straight line, and in mountainous terrain that can effectively double the planes advantage. Just yesterday, fighting a strong headwind, the GPS was telling me I was making 55 mph over the ground, while the airspeed indicator was showing 83, so I was getting passed by cars below. But then the highway got twisty, and I was able to catch up, and thought I had the last laugh. Then the wind got stronger, and I hit a bit of rain, and it got a bit bumpy, and the laughter stopped for a bit. Gusts to 37 MPH as luck would have it, right on my nose, in a low drag car like the Prius, no biggie, planes and flying are great, until they aren't.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Ghost Rider » Sep 09 2018 10:54am

axca wrote:
Sep 08 2018 3:04pm
Chalo wrote:
Sep 06 2018 12:19pm
Ghost Rider wrote:
Sep 06 2018 12:07pm
Sometimes I cry myself to sleep because I am so ashamed of all the damage I am doing to the ozone layer. Last year I even sold all of my cows because I have been told that they hurt the environment when they fart.
You were spewing chlorofluorocarbons-- and raising cattle-- for recreation? As an expression of wealth? Weird, but whatever. At least you stopped.
He was surely attempting humour and sarcasm ...
:mrgreen:



I suspect that the Blackfly will never go into production, smells like vapor ware. Like the Skycar, aero X, Lilium jet etc
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Voltron » Sep 09 2018 12:13pm

"I too have witnessed a B-1 full afterburner takeoff, and really enjoyed the incredible noise, totally awesome, but I bet when it flies low over cattle they drop dead, my plane, they don't even look up! "


I wouldn't describe it as "enjoyed"... It was more of a what hath man wrought feeling... Not awesomeness, but bewilderment at the choices and priorities of humankind.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Punx0r » Sep 09 2018 3:09pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 08 2018 8:16pm
Concorde was not banned from flying, only from landing and taking off at some airports.
..it was eventually withdrawn from sevice due to the imposition of uneconomic flight paths and subsonic operation over land to eliminate any percieved effects of sonic sound waves.
The final straw was the horrific crash on take off in Paris caused by a tyre failure from debris on the runway.
That would have required the reengineering of protection for the control systems fuel tanks etc.
After 20+ yrs sevice it was deemed uneconomical to keep the fleet flying for what was really a primarily loss making subsonic service.
Concorde fell foul of a general ban on supersonic flight over land. This wasn't much of an issue for it's transatlantic flights but not much good for domestic U.S. routes. The France/uk/usa routes were always a genuine mach 2 service.

It was not a subsonic service and it consistently ran at a profit for both it's operators: BA and AirFrance.

It was withdrawn from service due to reduced passenger numbers as a combined result of the crash and a general downturn due to the Sept 11th attacks, exacerbated by increased maintenance costs as Airbus decided to end support for the aircraft. The re-engineering of the fuel tanks and the tyres had already been performed on all the planes when they were retired.

The development of the plane was mired in problems but the finished item was not a white elephant. Ultimately though Boeing had the right idea in going the opposite way with the 747.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by craneplaneguy » Sep 09 2018 10:02pm

The E Montague in action this weekend: hauling 11 gallons of mogas on the Travoy trailer. I took this picture while having a smoke break (just kidding). The low center of gravity makes it handle great. I usually unhitch the bike from the trailer and walk the trailer over to the pumps, fill everything up and then hook it back up (1 second) and then ride off at a high rate of speed, while people wonder what the heck is going on. Even an earth raper like me draws the line on buying leaded Avgas, the lead is not good for my engine or it's prop reduction system (or any living thing), and I don't need it's high octane rating, my engine runs fine on regular mogas, plus I save a lot of money. 5 bucks a gallon at the airport, $2.85 at the gas station a mile away, times 11 gallons, that's a $23.65 savings. I burned 45 gallons this weekend, averaging about 3.2 GPH.World wide,during those two days, 186 billion BARRELS were consumed. I'll leave it to others to do the math, as to what effect, percentage wise, my not burning that gas would have on the planet, thus my "pissing in the ocean" theory.
rsz_img_20180908_140414290.jpg
Back to alternative energy: it's remarkable the amount of grid tied (I'm assuming, as they had grid power) PV systems I see these days from the air, more and more all the time. It seems to be in clusters in certain neighborhoods, a modern day "keeping up with the Jone's" perhaps, or just good word of mouth.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Chalo » Sep 10 2018 3:04am

craneplaneguy wrote:
Sep 09 2018 10:02pm
I burned 45 gallons this weekend, averaging about 3.2 GPH.World wide,during those two days, 186 billion BARRELS were consumed. I'll leave it to others to do the math, as to what effect, percentage wise, my not burning that gas would have on the planet, thus my "pissing in the ocean" theory.
That's millions of barrels, not billions. (You only got it wrong by a factor of 1000.) The entire world uses about 93 million barrels of petroleum per day. A barrel of petroleum is 42 gallons. So petroleum consumption worldwide for the two day weekend was about 7.8 billion gallons, or about 1.05 gallons for each person on Earth.

Congratulations. You only used a little over 40 times the global per capita average amount of petroleum this weekend! If only everyone else in the world could have had their own plane and done the same. None of us would have to show up for work on Monday.

Note that this simplified analysis is very generous to you, because a barrel of crude oil only yields about 20 gallons of gasoline. At that conversion rate, you used 90 times the world average.

If you'd spent the same amount of time flying the Draco bush plane, you'd have used 375 times the world average petroleum consumption. (That's not even considering the fact that only about 4 gallons per 42 gallon barrel of crude oil can be made into jet fuel.) But in that case, you'd be worth it, right?

It's something to keep in mind-- half a gallon of petroleum per day is your share. And at that rate of consumption, we're all screwed anyway.
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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Punx0r » Sep 10 2018 7:46am

A "tragedy of the commons"...

Let's not also forget the additional petroleum required to find/extract/process/deliver each gallon of refined petrol fuel :D

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by Ghost Rider » Sep 10 2018 9:01am

By the way why would anyone name a cool aircraft like this after an annoying, bloodsucking, parasitic insect?
Black Falcon or something would be more fitting.

Better video with more flying.

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Re: Blackfly at Oshkosh

Post by The fingers » Sep 10 2018 9:10am

The shiny black cockpit does somewhat resemble an insect pest IMHO. :twisted:
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