Sail, Solar, Wind Powered Expedition Triak

This project is to build a sailing frame around a sea kayak and outfit for extended length expeditions.
The snapshot is from the 3D model that I use to plan and build; looking up from under the water, with a "glass" rendering so you can look inside everything


The boat is essentially complete now except for the electrical system.
I had installed a small 12v solar system but after tinkering with ebike upgrades I realized it was going to be inadequate.

So I bought a couple 48v 425w panels to mount on the cabin roof, a 48v Tesup Master940 wind generator and a 100ah 48v LiFePo4 battery. The 12v electrical is complete: 2 bilge pumps, 2 fresh water pumps, 1 seawater pump, nav lights, horn, searchlight, etc.

I also have mounted a pair of blue robotics 4" T200 thrusters that can run on 12-20v; which I want to run at 16v to get 400w of power from each. I really like the idea of a submerged motor to prevent overheating. The thrusters are mounted amidship about 12' apart.

Originally the thrusters were to get in/out of the harbor but now that I will have more power available, I'm trying to decide how to better utilize them; perhaps for the autopilot instead of a tiller/rudder?

The solar system will be the two 425w panels, a small MPPT for each and a 3000w pure sine wave inverter.
The wind generator is rated at 940w and comes with it's own controller.
The length is 22' and the sails are a total of 180 sq.ft. in a Bermuda configuration.

The estimated weight of the craft is 1500 lbs (to be verified in the spring).

Constant critical loads are the autopilot (Raspberry Pi with touchscreen linked to an Arduino), GPS, radio, emergency beacon that total about 20w, not including the actuator power.

I want to add electric drive capability but can't decide which way to go. I have a spare 48v 750w rear hub motor and controller that I could use. Or maybe I should purchase a couple 48v thrusters or...

Emphasis is on reliability and flexibility; Speed isn't important...

That may be the most complicated boat I've ever seen. 11 hulls? A side view might help.

Here's the side view using normal rendering.

The submerged tanks are for fresh water and the two outrigger tanks are for rain water.

The outriggers give a beam of 14-15ft (adjustable) .

The mast step is on top of the frame so no load is transmitted to the kayak.
The kayak was strengthened with additional internal aluminum tubing so hopefully it tracks well.
It supplies 450# of buoyancy and inside is storage for food...

The cabin is 5' x 8' and will have a water-tight door.
I'm really working hard to keep the cabin water-tight so the voyage is 'comfortable'.
A hammock will be stretched across the cabin for sleeping (in port).
With the extra power, I will use an electric stove so I eliminated the propane tank.

And here's the proposed single line:

Pretty ambitious project and I like it.

Dont sail boats need a boating number?
I know canoes and kayaks dont, but I swear I've seen boat registration numbers on sail boats. The power to move the boat coming from the wind through the sails, plus your thruster motors.
I dont know if it has to pass anything, yours being custom.

https://www.dmv.org/articles/which-vessels-require-boat-registration/
Talks about boating license which is easy.

Some states require you to register the following vessels:

Sail-powered vessels longer than eight feet.
Powerboats.
Commercial vessels that weigh at least five tons or are at least 30 feet long.
Any motorized boat of any length.

Click to expand...

I also have mounted a pair of blue robotics 4" T200 thrusters that can run on 12-20v; which I want to run at 16v to get 400w of power from each. I really like the idea of a submerged motor to prevent overheating. The thrusters are mounted amidship about 12' apart.

Click to expand...

Where are you going to float this house boat?

The first thing that came to my mind was where is he going to store it and transport it, unless he is on the river or lake with a dock.

e-beach said:

Where are you going to float this house boat?

Click to expand...

Using mass produced off-the-shelf components can be an affordable way to go.

I would look for a wrecked Zero motorcycle at auction to get the motor and controller. It uses 28S, and that can be achieved eith dual 14S ebike batteries in series.

The two 52V batteries can be charged individually and they can also be used to run a 120V AC inverter, since most 48V nominal inverters have 60V max capacitors.

I wouldnt submerge the motor. Liquid cooling is interesting if you frequently over-amp the motor for the short acceleration phase on a motorcycle, but a boat motor would cavitate the propeller. Its either on or off, with maybe a slower maneuvering speed in the marina.

What kinds of wind speeds to you normally get where you plan to sail this?
I'm not a naval architect but I think what you're making there is a folding boat. The loads on the shrouds, mast step, and bowsprit are going to be massive, particularly since it appears you're going to be using water ballast out at the widest part of the hull. If it can't heel in a gust it'll just fold in half unless it's seriously over built or under powered.
Also, you'll need some type of centerboard or daggerboards or it will just go sideways. Without them it won't go upwind well if at all.
You might consider starting with an old catamaran or trimaran and electrifying it instead of sailifying a kayak. Maybe a Reynolds 21 if you can find one, or a Tornado if you don't mind getting wet.

calab said:

Pretty ambitious project and I like it.

Dont sail boats need a boating number?
I know canoes and kayaks dont, but I swear I've seen boat registration numbers on sail boats. The power to move the boat coming from the wind through the sails, plus your thruster motors.
I dont know if it has to pass anything, yours being custom.

https://www.dmv.org/articles/which-vessels-require-boat-registration/
Talks about boating license which is easy.

Some states require you to register the following vessels:

Sail-powered vessels longer than eight feet.
Powerboats.
Commercial vessels that weigh at least five tons or are at least 30 feet long.
Any motorized boat of any length.

Click to expand...

I also have mounted a pair of blue robotics 4" T200 thrusters that can run on 12-20v; which I want to run at 16v to get 400w of power from each. I really like the idea of a submerged motor to prevent overheating. The thrusters are mounted amidship about 12' apart.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Calab,

Here in Canada, any recreational boat under 10hp doesn't need registration.
With the two thrusters, it's just over 1hp right now so any modifications to the drives
need to stay below this limit, which shouldn't be a problem.

calab said:

The first thing that came to my mind was where is he going to store it and transport it, unless he is on the river or lake with a dock.

e-beach said:

Where are you going to float this house boat?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Storage right now is my backyard
The triak is made to be disassembled into pieces no heavier than 50#.
I placed waterproof connectors on all the electrical cables at the bolted disconnect locations for easy disconnect.

I think I'll need a full size Uhaul with a Grandma's attic but it should all fit.
I'm estimating three days to put the pieces back together and have it ready to sail.

The expedition sailing route can't be disclosed right now...

spinningmagnets said:

Using mass produced off-the-shelf components can be an affordable way to go.

I would look for a wrecked Zero motorcycle at auction to get the motor and controller. It uses 28S, and that can be achieved eith dual 14S ebike batteries in series.

The two 52V batteries can be charged individually and they can also be used to run a 120V AC inverter, since most 48V nominal inverters have 60V max capacitors.

I wouldnt submerge the motor. Liquid cooling is interesting if you frequently over-amp the motor for the short acceleration phase on a motorcycle, but a boat motor would cavitate the propeller. Its either on or off, with maybe a slower maneuvering speed in the marina.

Click to expand...

I checked-out Zero cycles and the dual sport model looks really cool; Being a DIYer, I might buy one and wreck it myself.

I need to keep the power under 10hp though so the motor isn't a good fit.
But the batteries would be nice to have...
I wonder if e-moto batteries can be used under constant simultaneous charge and discharge?

MattZ said:

What kinds of wind speeds to you normally get where you plan to sail this?
I'm not a naval architect but I think what you're making there is a folding boat. The loads on the shrouds, mast step, and bowsprit are going to be massive, particularly since it appears you're going to be using water ballast out at the widest part of the hull. If it can't heel in a gust it'll just fold in half unless it's seriously over built or under powered.
Also, you'll need some type of centerboard or daggerboards or it will just go sideways. Without them it won't go upwind well if at all.
You might consider starting with an old catamaran or trimaran and electrifying it instead of sailifying a kayak. Maybe a Reynolds 21 if you can find one, or a Tornado if you don't mind getting wet.

Click to expand...

When the boat heels, the outriggers will contact the surface and prevent further heeling.

Good point on the "folding loads" and I'll evaluate the frame based on this.
(added note: I checked out some extreme hobie cat sailing videos and it looks like they have an very strong
cross-beam between the hulls. I think I definitely need some reinforcement)

but I don't ever plan to have 'massive forces' on the sail rig.

Managing the effective sail size is just part of sailing.
When the wind blows stronger, you reduce the area of the sheets by reefing,
down to where you don't damage the rigging or the boat.

Stronger winds call for a change to the storm sails which spill excess wind more easily
while again reducing the sail area to a minimum.

Stronger winds than that and all the sails are down and you're just sitting looking into the teeth of the wind;
unless you have a motor to push you round, which is the whole point of this thread :wink:

A lee-board on each side will be required.
I keep forgetting to build those things...

Thanks for the reply. very helpful.

HillCruiser said:

And here's the proposed single line:

Click to expand...

A few notes on this:

1) Would be much better to use 48 volt motors. An alternative would be to step 48 volts down to 16 volts. Each conversion step causes some losses, so having one conversion step will save quite a bit of power.

2) Those panels are 48 volt panels, with a Vmpp of 41 volts. Under realistic operating conditions they will put out about 38 volts. They will not charge a 48 volt battery; you need a panel with a Vmpp of at least 60 volts for that.

2a) If you really want to use them, a few companies make boost controllers that will boost power from a low voltage panel to a battery. Genasun makes one, as does Renogy.

3) Many electric sailboats use motors that can be turned into generators, to recapture energy when you are moving under wind power.

JackFlorey said:

HillCruiser said:

And here's the proposed single line:

Click to expand...

A few notes on this:

1) Would be much better to use 48 volt motors. An alternative would be to step 48 volts down to 16 volts. Each conversion step causes some losses, so having one conversion step will save quite a bit of power.

2) Those panels are 48 volt panels, with a Vmpp of 41 volts. Under realistic operating conditions they will put out about 38 volts. They will not charge a 48 volt battery; you need a panel with a Vmpp of at least 60 volts for that.

2a) If you really want to use them, a few companies make boost controllers that will boost power from a low voltage panel to a battery. Genasun makes one, as does Renogy.

3) Many electric sailboats use motors that can be turned into generators, to recapture energy when you are moving under wind power.

Click to expand...

1) I agree that 48v motors are better.
2) I checked the specs and your comment is correct; battery would not have charged.
2a) Boost solar panel outlet from 40v to 60v
3) I'm going to start looking for a 5kw motor with regen.

Jack,
Thank you for your review of the one-line and your comments.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help!

HillCruiser said:

When the boat heels, the outriggers will contact the surface and prevent further heeling.

Good point on the "folding loads" and I'll evaluate the frame based on this.
(added note: I checked out some extreme hobie cat sailing videos and it looks like they have an very strong
cross-beam between the hulls. I think I definitely need some reinforcement)

but I don't ever plan to have 'massive forces' on the sail rig.

Managing the effective sail size is just part of sailing.
When the wind blows stronger, you reduce the area of the sheets by reefing,
down to where you don't damage the rigging or the boat.

Stronger winds call for a change to the storm sails which spill excess wind more easily
while again reducing the sail area to a minimum.

Stronger winds than that and all the sails are down and you're just sitting looking into the teeth of the wind;
unless you have a motor to push you round, which is the whole point of this thread :wink:

A lee-board on each side will be required.
I keep forgetting to build those things...

Thanks for the reply. very helpful.

Click to expand...

In addition to the crossbeam, beach catamarans like Hobies, etc, have what's called a dolphin striker under the mast which counteracts the downward force of the shrouds and keeps the crossbeam from buckling. It's not a good pic, zoomed in from a distance but you can see it here running from side to side under the mast and main crossbeam. You may need one running front to rear for the forestay as well.

Mattz,

I never knew about the 'dolphin striker'; very simple, ingenious device.
In my case, it seems to be placed right where the kayak frame is strapped to the cross bars.
Will the kayak act as a dolphin striker?

It's possible that would work, probably depends on what the kayak is made of. You could use stainless cables and drill a hole in either side of the kayak to run the cables through. They need to run to the ends of the crossbars.

HillCruiser said:

2a) Boost solar panel outlet from 40v to 60v

Click to expand...

Yes. I would just note that MPPT boost controllers will actually take a range of voltages (say from 9-60 volts in the case of the Genasun) and boost them to the exact desired battery voltage (in your case 56.8 volts.) No additional charge controller required. One Genasun per panel would work since they have a max rated current of 8 amps which translates to about 330 watts, which is about what your panels will put out in full sun.

HillCruiser said:

Mattz,

I never knew about the 'dolphin striker'; very simple, ingenious device.
In my case, it seems to be placed right where the kayak frame is strapped to the cross bars.
Will the kayak act as a dolphin striker?

Click to expand...

Highly unadvisable !.
That device is a tensioned brace for the crossbeam and reacting to the load from the side stays.
It requires a rigid connection to be effective and i suspect your kayak hull shape is not going to be ideal for that and also risks a failure of the kayak hull in critical situations.

Hillhater said:

HillCruiser said:

Mattz,

I never knew about the 'dolphin striker'; very simple, ingenious device.
In my case, it seems to be placed right where the kayak frame is strapped to the cross bars.
Will the kayak act as a dolphin striker?

Click to expand...

Highly unadvisable !.
That device is a tensioned brace for the crossbeam and reacting to the load from the side stays.
It requires a rigid connection to be effective and i suspect your kayak hull shape is not going to be ideal for that and also risks a failure of the kayak hull in critical situations.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply and the explanation.
I'm bdginning to understand the" dophin striker" device a little better.

Ongoing:
I checked on 5KW motors/controllers and there seems many options.
Just looking for 48v 5000w reversible with regeneration...
No problem (but shipping costs)

The shaft and propeller are the issue now.
Any ideas are welcome...

That's an ambitious project.

I have concerns about the 'sailability' of your platform. While the short outriggers will provide stability while motoring, I'm not sure they will provide enough stability while sailing. Being short, they will cause a lot of drag. All those external tanks will also cause a lot of drag in waves. I suggest keeping everything that is near/under the water inside a hull to minimize resistance. And keep the boat as light as possible.

I would float test your platform, and sail test it before getting too far with all the electrical systems.

I'm also concerned that the windage from the square-cornered cabin will prevent any progress to windward. It will also require a lot more electric power to make way against any sort of wind. That said, having the cabin at the stern is a good place for it.

Have you given any thought to an anchoring system? If you're voyaging along the coast, you'll need to deal with 4m tides. Staying in marinas will require boat insurance, which is difficult to get for a DIY boat. So having a good anchoring system is your best bet.

My suggestions come from my experience designing, building and sailing a 6m proa with solar electric propulsion. I don't regret the experience, but fixing up a production boat and customizing is way easier! Good luck.

cpcanoesailor,

Thanks for the reply; you bring up some interesting points.

The whole idea of the adventure is to outfit a sea kayak for an expedition;
a route never accomplished by a kayak to-date; something that cannot be done by
retrofitting of an existing sailboat.

It's not an optimized sailing craft, that's for sure, but that wasn't a design goal.
The goal was to have a stable, live-aboard kayak that could use wind and solar for propulsion;
even if not in the most efficient fashion. I am a lot more concerned about keeping the rig right side up
and in one piece.

Paddling my sea kayak, I could make maybe 20 miles in a day, but maintaining this day after day is difficult.
With the sailing module added, I'm scheduling 50 miles per day; basically kayak hull speed on a 24-hour
a day basis. Trying to get a sea kayak to go faster than the design kayak hull speed would take a LOT of power.

The most dangerous moments in a sea kayak trip are getting in and out through the surf every day.
been there, done that, no more...Setting up camp onshore every night takes a lot of time and effort.
The live aboard platform will be awesome compared to the alternative even if it is a slow ponderous beast.

I setup the typical catamaran/trimaran Y-shaped anchor harness between pontoons but it's definitely not designed for 4m tides and marinas as you say are pretty much out of the question. Keep sailing, keep sailing...

I like the idea of test floating the platform and plan to do just that as soon as soon as the nearby lake thaws out,
but I need to keep on keeping on and make some progress while I have 4' of snow on the ground .
The electrical system is being designed as a modular add-on so it can be repurposed for another craft.

Have you done any write-up on the proa?
Building a boat is definitely an experience-not-to-be-missed in life!
Building a boat with an electric motor: Priceless!

Have you done any write-up on the proa?
Building a boat is definitely an experience-not-to-be-missed in life!
Building a boat with an electric motor: Priceless!

Click to expand...

I don't want to clutter your thread. Here's a link to a post about the electrical system.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=67574&p=1599635&hilit=proa#p1599635
My avatar is a pic of the proa.
The one thing you can't see is the 100W panel on the side deck between the akas. It was really great, because the sails rarely shaded it, since they are always to lee, on the opposite side of the boat.

Sounds like you've thought through your design. Right, winter! I think we're mostly done on the coast, but there's still snow on the mountains.